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Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Pokechecker, you visit my threads from time to time. What's your take on Ohio State not being able to win it all? Does it differ from my assessment? :D

If all of the other teams in the WCHA were coached by Brady Hoke, you'd win a championship.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

THis thread started as a joke then took a serious turn. OK let's be serious. There are 2 main reasons 3 teams have won every NCAA championship but last years.

First & biggest reason is there is not enough talent to stock the 35 teams legitimately playing D-I hockey. The very best are going to end up largely at 5 or 6 schools and the majority at a couple if they can. If you are really good and want to play for the championship there really are only a couple that offer you a great chance. The drop off in talent after the top 20-30 in North America is too great to push marginal teams into contention. Its getting better as teams like BSU have proven but not far enough. If there were only 16 teams or there were twice as many top elite players the challenge would be greater.

While I hope the numbers of great players increases - and it has been - there is one reason womens hockey does not have the changing final fours the men have that I hope never changes (though I bet it will). Middlin mens teams can hook, hold, interfere and generally goon it up to an extent that prevents the very best players from unleashing their game. The result is that average can drag down better and unseat more talented teams. None of this years final four do not deserve to be there but part of what got them there was a willingness and ability to muck it up, even their top players have to. It is the way the men's game is played. It is the path to the NHL. If you want to compete for the final four it is what you have to do and that is OK I guess since nobody seems to complain about it. What is missing is the great passing, play-making and skating that can dominate the womens game.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

U of M has to stop taking great players off the market and making them their third or fourth line. If more great players went to another school than just wanting to be a Gopher there would be better hockey in all the conferences and the real NCAA champion would be women's hockey

THis thread started as a joke then took a serious turn.
I'm just wondering, was this gem from Hockeysbest the turning point, from jest to a serious discussion?

Clearly, the successful, championship programs in the WCHA are culpable in the impending ruination of NCAA division I women's hockey, as has been suggested more than once...thus, the real reason teams that haven't won a championship are unable to do so. Perfectly obvious and logical if you're paying the slightest attention. Acutely analytical.

How about initiating a draft for the high school / prep senior classes removing the troublesome choice of institution for the student athlete and thereby putting a stop to Minnesota's sinister stockpiling of blue chippers only to be relegated to fourth line duty, but far more importantly, purposely preventing them from any chance of prospering on an opponents roster and contributing to another teams success. What can I say...this savvy understanding of the problem and brilliant solution hit me like a lightning bolt. :)
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

The players at Wisconsin and Minnesota have the best facilities in all of womens college hockey..THATS why the top players WANT to go to those schools!!

Never been to Amsoil or The Ralph?
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

While I hope the numbers of great players increases - and it has been - there is one reason womens hockey does not have the changing final fours the men have that I hope never changes (though I bet it will). Middlin mens teams can hook, hold, interfere and generally goon it up to an extent that prevents the very best players from unleashing their game. The result is that average can drag down better and unseat more talented teams. None of this years final four do not deserve to be there but part of what got them there was a willingness and ability to muck it up, even their top players have to. It is the way the men's game is played. It is the path to the NHL. If you want to compete for the final four it is what you have to do and that is OK I guess since nobody seems to complain about it. What is missing is the great passing, play-making and skating that can dominate the womens game.

I see that more blatantly (and probably more frequently) in women's hockey. The WCHA playoff quarterfinal series in 2014 between Minnesota State and Wisconsin was a great example. I've even seen great teams having an off game get away with rampant hooking/holding that I've never seen fly in men's college hockey. I've seen some downright disgusting officiating that I consider a disgrace to hockey at women's games.

Physical play is a skill (really, a set of skills) in and of itself, but that's a different discussion (and a discussion that ends up being more subjective/opinion-based).
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

I guess I should be more clear! Though Ridder or LaBahn may not be as big as Amsoil or the Ralph or have all the bells and whistles that those two arenas have, at least the teams are playing in their OWN stadiums.. They do not share the facility with the men's teams (at least not for games) and the banners hanging in the rafters are the women's hockey teams ONLY!! When a fan attends the games you get the feel that the women's team is the only team around that matters! If I get that feeling as a fan imagine how a prospective recruit feels! That has to be a big plus for any player thinking about attending either UM or UW...Then you throw in the fact that you could play for either Mark Johnson or Brad Frost.. SLAM DUNK!! Every home game is pretty much a sell out with 2,000 fans attending.. That is over a thousand more that either UMD or UND average..and 1500 to 1800 more than the national average!
Never been to Amsoil or The Ralph?
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

U of M has to stop taking great players off the market and making them their third or fourth line. If more great players went to another school than just wanting to be a Gopher there would be better hockey in all the conferences and the real NCAA champion would be women's hockey

given the small number of freshmen the team takes each year, usually 4 or 5, they simply cannot and are not

Kids interested in pursuing astronomy are going to go to the schools known for astronomy, same for any other area of interest, why would it be any different for hockey?

They have devoted 15 years to playing hockey, if they have a chance to grab the brass ring they are going to go for it and pick the school they feel will give them the best opportunity to do that. Sure academics, school life, … and all the rest are important and will weigh in on their choice.

as time goes on there will be more and more parity, simple math tells us that, and can anyone really accurately rate the athletes and predict their success? sure the top 5 are obvious compared to #50 thru 60, which in turn are obvious from #200 thru 250, but determining 1 thru 5, or 50 thru 60, 200 thru 250, ... not so easy.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

U of M has to stop taking great players off the market and making them their third or fourth line. If more great players went to another school than just wanting to be a Gopher there would be better hockey in all the conferences and the real NCAA champion would be women's hockey
Got it right on the nose...we need to strive toward more mediocrity....enough with having elite teams and the resulting attempts by other programs to match their excellence. Thanks for your insights....nailed it.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

U of M has to stop taking great players off the market and making them their third or fourth line. If more great players went to another school than just wanting to be a Gopher there would be better hockey in all the conferences and the real NCAA champion would be women's hockey

I'm just wondering, was this gem from Hockeysbest the turning point, from jest to a serious discussion?
I took the Hockeysbest post as needling, maybe with a little venting tossed in. Not a serious claim.

brookyone said:
Clearly, the successful, championship programs in the WCHA are culpable in the impending ruination of NCAA division I women's hockey, as has been suggested more than once...thus, the real reason teams that haven't won a championship are unable to do so. Perfectly obvious and logical if you're paying the slightest attention. Acutely analytical.

How about initiating a draft for the high school / prep senior classes removing the troublesome choice of institution for the student athlete and thereby putting a stop to Minnesota's sinister stockpiling of blue chippers only to be relegated to fourth line duty, but far more importantly, purposely preventing them from any chance of prospering on an opponents roster and contributing to another teams success. What can I say...this savvy understanding of the problem and brilliant solution hit me like a lightning bolt. :)
But if I misread Hockeysbest and a serious claim was being made, here's my answer:

Stockpiling has been an issue in other sports over the years. Lower scholarship limits have largely addressed it. But there is something a little ugly about painting an unreasonably optimistic picture for a too-large group of recruits, knowing all along that a good number will never participate in a competition. For some, being on the taxi squad and sitting on the bench during games was reward enough. If so, more power to 'em. But in the worst cases, the "practice dummies" didn't even get to suit up.

One of the nice things about college hockey is that's not really part of our story. If you suit up, you play. Being on the 3rd or 4th line is an honor, not some sort of insult.

OK, the back-up goalies don't hit the ice, but normally there's some rotation from game to game. And yes, a few extra players beyond 21 are needed in the event of injuries or departures. But in general those players eventually get an opportunity to be in the line-up. And in the circumstances when that doesn't occur, most often the player was a recruited walk-on who knew the deal up front.

If anything, hockey could use additional scholarship dollars to fully fund the playing positions. Even if we aren't as enlightened as I imagine, the money just isn't there to stockpile.

given the small number of freshmen the team takes each year, usually 4 or 5, they simply cannot and are not
Correct. Stockpiling is a non-issue for Women's Hockey.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

I took the Hockeysbest post as needling, maybe with a little venting tossed in. Not a serious claim.

But if I misread Hockeysbest and a serious claim was being made, here's my answer:

Stockpiling has been an issue in other sports over the years. Lower scholarship limits have largely addressed it. But there is something a little ugly about painting an unreasonably optimistic picture for a too-large group of recruits, knowing all along that a good number will never participate in a competition. For some, being on the taxi squad and sitting on the bench during games was reward enough. If so, more power to 'em. But in the worst cases, the "practice dummies" didn't even get to suit up.

One of the nice things about college hockey is that's not really part of our story. If you suit up, you play. Being on the 3rd or 4th line is an honor, not some sort of insult.

OK, the back-up goalies don't hit the ice, but normally there's some rotation from game to game. And yes, a few extra players beyond 21 are needed in the event of injuries or departures. But in general those players eventually get an opportunity to be in the line-up. And in the circumstances when that doesn't occur, most often the player was a recruited walk-on who knew the deal up front.

If anything, hockey could use additional scholarship dollars to fully fund the playing positions. Even if we aren't as enlightened as I imagine, the money just isn't there to stockpile.

Correct. Stockpiling is a non-issue for Women's Hockey.

On this issue, I found the USA Hockey article about Anderson from Bemidji State interesting, where she credits leaving Minnesota and getting more ice time with helping her make the 2015 national team.

http://www.usawomenshockey.com/news_article/show/495480
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

On this issue, I found the USA Hockey article about Anderson from Bemidji State interesting, where she credits leaving Minnesota and getting more ice time with helping her make the 2015 national team.

http://www.usawomenshockey.com/news_article/show/495480
Although the change in scenery - getting a fresh start - was no doubt a good thing for her, it's very hard to say how much progress she could have made in her game if she had stayed at Minnesota, with the right mindset. By her own admission the passing of her sister "had a huge impact" and as a result her grades suffered and she "kind of went downhill". At Minnesota and other established, successful programs it's very difficult for any freshman to star on the first line, and that would be especially true for someone going through what he was coping with.

In any case she is to be congratulated for being able to put her freshman difficulties behind her and putting in all the hard work that eventually enabled her to make the U.S. team.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

On this issue, I found the USA Hockey article about Anderson from Bemidji State interesting, where she credits leaving Minnesota and getting more ice time with helping her make the 2015 national team.

http://www.usawomenshockey.com/news_article/show/495480
Interesting read; thanks for posting the link.

If your takeaway is that recruits should give full consideration to all offers, whether the school has won its first national title or not, of course I'm good with that. And yes, if taken to heart by at least some recruits, it would tend to spread the wealth.

At the same time, I don't think there's a single bad guy in this story. I see nothing wrong with Anderson's initial decision to go to MN; or her decision to transfer to BSU. Nor is there anything wrong with MN's initial offer, or BSU's decision to accept her as a transfer. Sometimes it just takes a couple of tries to find the perfect fit. That's true with life in general, not just scholarship decisions.;)
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

At Minnesota and other established, successful programs it's very difficult for any freshman to star on the first line.

Yeah but we are not talking about a second line player. She was a 4th liner on a team that didn't have enough players to dress four lines some games.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Yeah but we are not talking about a second line player. She was a 4th liner on a team that didn't have enough players to dress four lines some games.
There is no doubt in my mind that Coach Frost and his staff would have had her playing more regularly that freshman year if they were of the opinion that she deserved it, based on the way she was playing at the time.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Yeah but we are not talking about a second line player. She was a 4th liner on a team that didn't have enough players to dress four lines some games.
That's misleading. She had a lot of games where she started on the 4th line, but she finished the national championship game skating on the first line. For that game, a senior forward was a healthy scratch. The other forwards on the top three lines of that team included seniors Jen Schoullis, Sarah Erickson, and Emily West. It should not have been surprising that Anderson was behind those three on the depth chart. Three of the sophomores on that year's team were Amanda Kessel, Kelly Terry, and Sarah Davis, all players who have made senior national team rosters for their countries as well. Again, not surprising that Anderson was behind all three. That left her in a battle for playing time with junior Becky Kortum, sophomore Bethany Brausen, and freshmen Rachael Bona and Meghan Lorence. I remember there were a number of games where either Brausen or Lorence wound up on the 4th line. Why were there so many quality forwards on that team? The fact that both Schoullis and West had taken medical redshirts and were fifth-year seniors played a role. With West, Schoullis, and Erickson graduating and only Hannah Brandt and Maryanne Menefee arriving as high-profile recruits the next year, I think everyone could tell that there would be more playing time available for those that stuck it out.

Ultimately, I agree with pgb; the change seems to have worked well for all parties involved.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

At the same time, I don't think there's a single bad guy in this story. I see nothing wrong with Anderson's initial decision to go to MN; or her decision to transfer to BSU. Nor is there anything wrong with MN's initial offer, or BSU's decision to accept her as a transfer. Sometimes it just takes a couple of tries to find the perfect fit. That's true with life in general, not just scholarship decisions.;)

exactly, her father played at MN, so that probably played a part in her initial decision, MN is very unlike Bemidji as a school and the environment, many students find out their initial choice wasn't the right one, or the situation just didn't play out right for them, sometimes a new start can be just what the doctor ordered
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

I guess I should be more clear! Though Ridder or LaBahn may not be as big as Amsoil or the Ralph or have all the bells and whistles that those two arenas have, at least the teams are playing in their OWN stadiums.. They do not share the facility with the men's teams (at least not for games) and the banners hanging in the rafters are the women's hockey teams ONLY!! When a fan attends the games you get the feel that the women's team is the only team around that matters! If I get that feeling as a fan imagine how a prospective recruit feels! That has to be a big plus for any player thinking about attending either UM or UW...Then you throw in the fact that you could play for either Mark Johnson or Brad Frost.. SLAM DUNK!! Every home game is pretty much a sell out with 2,000 fans attending.. That is over a thousand more that either UMD or UND average..and 1500 to 1800 more than the national average!

Minnesota averaged 853/game the year before their magical four year run started. There are other schools that would see a big jump if their teams won national championships. People like to support winners. UND even averaged more/game than Minnesota in 2012. It is a shame that women's hockey doesn't get more support though. It's a great game. I think lack of competition hurts though. It seems there's always one or two teams that dominate over a 4-5 year stretch.
 
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Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Minnesota averaged 853/game the year before their magical four year run started. There are other schools that would see a big jump if their teams won national championships. People like to support winners. UND even averaged more/game than Minnesota in 2012. It is a shame that women's hockey doesn't get more support though. It's a great game. I think lack of competition hurts though. It seems there's always one or two teams that dominate over a 4-5 year stretch.

Let's test the theory on the only non-WCHA winner Clarkson.

Average attendance in 2013/2014 - 400
Average attendance in 2014/2015 - 447

Taking a closer look at the "big jump" they experienced, their first home game had an attendance of 2506 which I'm guessing was the banner raising. Without that their average was 339.

I think most all the Eastern teams wouldn't see that big of a jump. UND might be the only school that would fit your "big jump" scenario.

Look, if you can be brutally honest about why women's college hockey doesn't get more support, it's not that hard to figure out. Skill Level. As improved as it has become over time it is still quite a bit behind the men's game. I personally don't care about that but then again I am a hockey junkie so I will watch any competitive hockey regardless of gender or age. Sad to say, I know that I will be in the minority on that.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Women's sports in general don't draw when compared to the men.

And the Clarkson crowd numbers are a big disappointment considering the students get in for free and tickets are, I believe, $5.
 
Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Re: Why teams can’t win the NCAA championship

Womens's sports in general don't draw when compared to the men.

And the Clarkson crowd numbers are a big disappointment considering the students get in for free and tickets are, I believe, $5.
 
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