Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

[Iwearpurple]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

The goal is to determine the best team in the country on 10 April. Teams improve and teams regress over the course of a season. Regardless of records, every team deserves the opportunity to prove that they are the best on 10 April through the tournament route. The sad thing is that UAH has alone been denied that opportunity by the hockey elite in 2011 and onward.

If you look in the handbook (handbook page 10),
http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/ice_hockey/2010/10_1_m_icehockey.pdf
you can see that the selection committee still has enough "wiggle room" to deny Bemidji an opportunity to make a return trip to the final four if they decide that there are 16 better teams than Bemidji.
"The committee reserves the right to evaluate each team based on the relative strength of its respective conference using the overall conference RPI and conference comparisons (e.g., Conference A’s won-lost record versus Conference B, etc.) in determining competitive equity."

It's still possible that the Beaver's inability to beat any of the other three CHA teams in its last three games may cause the selection committee to look closely. Regardless, UAH's ability to go undefeated against the other three CHA teams in its last three games gives them a tournament route opportunity that every team in the country deserves and that they alone will be denied after this year.

Won't happen and it shouldn't happen

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I'm not talking about the folks there, I'm talking about people who actually watched it on TV because "name" teams were in it, especially Notre Dame. Last year's Frozen Four field was a TV nightmare as far as I'm concerned.

Oh come on, they had a Cinderella Story right there with Bemidji State going to DC. ESPN loves a Cinderella Story and BSU made use of the fact that a previous local Cinderella Story from the year before that in D1 Hoops, George Mason, wasn't busy and could borrow their band for the weekend.

I had plenty of friends who watched the Final when Notre Dame and BC were in it because they recognized the schools from their football games. When BU played Miami, no one cared. I dont think any specific college matchup is going to make someone in the middle of Oklahoma watch, but I know a lot of people would watch the Frozen Four if big time schools were in it.

I guess if you don't think a Notre Dame vs. Boston College is more appealing to an average sports fan than BU vs. Miami, I"m not sure what I can say.

Its a College Championship, I don't care what you got going on there, if its Women's Softball, Men's Division 2 football, Men's D3 Hockey, or College Equesterian. If you're going to call yourself any sort of a college sports fan, you come across that on the TV, you're watching it. If not, then you're just not Hardcore enough.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

The goal is to determine the best team in the country on 10 April. Teams improve and teams regress over the course of a season. Regardless of records, every team deserves the opportunity to prove that they are the best on 10 April through the tournament route. The sad thing is that UAH has alone been denied that opportunity by the hockey elite in 2011 and onward.

If you look in the handbook (handbook page 10),
http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/ice_hockey/2010/10_1_m_icehockey.pdf
you can see that the selection committee still has enough "wiggle room" to deny Bemidji an opportunity to make a return trip to the final four if they decide that there are 16 better teams than Bemidji.
"The committee reserves the right to evaluate each team based on the relative strength of its respective conference using the overall conference RPI and conference comparisons (e.g., Conference A’s won-lost record versus Conference B, etc.) in determining competitive equity."

It's still possible that the Beaver's inability to beat any of the other three CHA teams in its last three games may cause the selection committee to look closely. Regardless, UAH's ability to go undefeated against the other three CHA teams in its last three games gives them a tournament route opportunity that every team in the country deserves and that they alone will be denied after this year.

Terry, I know you hate Bemidji, but ... come on, man.

GFM

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

The sad thing is that UAH has alone been denied that opportunity by the hockey elite in 2011 and onward.

I'll call bs on that one. If we are going to circle back to this argument, it wasn't the "hockey elite" schools that had concerns about letting UAH in the CCHA. It was the smaller schools with tighter budgets that voiced concerns about entry. Keep propagating the bitter nonsense, especially since the door isn't closed. Instead, blame the body of institutions that make up the NCAA for their indifference towards what is right for college hockey.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Terry, I know you hate Bemidji, but ... come on, man.

GFM

No, no, no, you should know better than that. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't take it seriously enough to hate anyone. My comments may be better summarized in the following five points since I truly had no intention of implying that the Beavers don't deserve an invite:
1. Every team should have a tournament route to the final game of the year so that teams who have improved after a slow start have an opportunity to prove that they are the best in the country on 10 April.
2. The Beavers should be invited if they are one of the top 10 "at-large" teams in the country.
3. There is a selection process defined in a handbook and implemented by a committee.
4. The selection process is flexible enough though to omit Bemidji if the selection committee thinks that there are 10 "at-large" teams better than the Beavers.
5. The whining here is sort of silly given points 1-4 and would only make sense if someone could propose 10 possible "at-large" teams better than the Beavers.

 

[4four4]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

No, no, no, you should know better than that. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't take it seriously enough to hate anyone. My comments may be better summarized in the following five points since I truly had no intention of implying that the Beavers don't deserve an invite:
1. Every team should have a tournament route to the final game of the year so that teams who have improved after a slow start have an opportunity to prove that they are the best in the country on 10 April.
2. The Beavers should be invited if they are one of the top 10 "at-large" teams in the country.
3. There is a selection process defined in a handbook and implemented by a committee.
4. The selection process is flexible enough though to omit Bemidji if the selection committee thinks that there are 10 "at-large" teams better than the Beavers.
5. The whining here is sort of silly given points 1-4 and would only make sense if someone could propose 10 possible "at-large" teams better than the Beavers.

But the Beavers look like they have a serious shot at being invited again.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Don't Hate Huntsville, Blame Bemidji!!

 

[ChargerBlue]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I'll call bs on that one. If we are going to circle back to this argument, it wasn't the "hockey elite" schools that had concerns about letting UAH in the CCHA. It was the smaller schools with tighter budgets that voiced concerns about entry. Keep propagating the bitter nonsense, especially since the door isn't closed. Instead, blame the body of institutions that make up the NCAA for their indifference towards what is right for college hockey.

You sure about that? Because the last time I checked, no one made their votes public. Until they do, no one can say for sure.

I still say the blame lies with Atlantic Hockey. A: if they don't take Air Force, the CHA is intact. B: if they hadn't put obstacles in the way, their would have been a second division of AH with the four former CHA schools along with Mercyhurst and Canisius.

The CCHA is not the only villain here.

tnlong: It doesn't matter if Bemidji's number 7 or number 14 they deserve to be in.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

...
tnlong: It doesn't matter if Bemidji's number 7 or number 14 they deserve to be in.

Again, I'm not addressing the "deserve" issue at all. I'm just trying to enlighten everyone to the fact that there is a handbook, a committee, and a process that is not constrained to just numbers and has the power to address the concerns of others here.

 

[GoBeavers]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Again, I'm not addressing the "deserve" issue at all. I'm just trying to enlighten everyone to the fact that there is a handbook, a committee, and a process that is not constrained to just numbers and has the power to address the concerns of others here.

Would it make you feal better if Bemidji joined the Union?

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

You sure about that? Because the last time I checked, no one made their votes public. Until they do, no one can say for sure.

I still say the blame lies with Atlantic Hockey. A: if they don't take Air Force, the CHA is intact. B: if they hadn't put obstacles in the way, their would have been a second division of AH with the four former CHA schools along with Mercyhurst and Canisius.

The CCHA is not the only villain here.

tnlong: It doesn't matter if Bemidji's number 7 or number 14 they deserve to be in.

You need someone to blame, but that is the first time I have seen the finger pointed at the AHA. Tnlong's comment targeted "hockey elite" schools (specifically in the CCHA I assume) for blocking UAH from entering the conference. I'm deducting that, without knowledge of who voted what, and by the encrypted doubletalk out of the CCHA office, the most pushback came from the small programs that are struggling to compete in our conference.

These programs have to deal with limited budgets and revenue streams, let along have another similar program fight for the recruiting and television scraps left from Notre Dame, Michigan and MSU (and in some degree Ohio State and Miami). The programs previously mentioned are unaffected in the big picture and have not officially shared any opinion on the matter. Don't confuse that with indifference, though. I don't think these programs want to see other programs shut down, but their first priority should be the health of the teams in their own conference. UNO's departure simply opened up a way to cut short term costs.

There is no doubt that WMU, BGSU, NMU, LSSU, FSU and Alaska all have tighter budgets, less revenue options and greater reasons to deny membership than the other schools mentioned. It's even more amazing that of this group, the two schools that should have more diverse resource options have brought up the rear in the CCHA for over a decade and have even considered cutting hockey until grass roots efforts halted that. That's a pretty compelling reason to vote against new membership. Vilifying the CCHA, and specifically the anchor schools for making a business decision based on their members needs is ignorant. UAH has made a compelling argument that they would fit, and had to prove that they would add as much or more value as UNO. I don't think that is entirely the reason they weren't admitted, and the door is not closed to their admittance. Frankly, I think Anastos supports it.

The real hammer is the collective member schools comprising the NCAA and the committee members overseeing NCAA hockey. Blame them for allowing the conference musical chairs that is going on and for allowing the CHA to be broken up in the first place.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Again, I'm not addressing the "deserve" issue at all. I'm just trying to enlighten everyone to the fact that there is a handbook, a committee, and a process that is not constrained to just numbers and has the power to address the concerns of others here.

That's true, and you are right.

However, for the few seasons that I've been paying attention to the tournament selection processes, they have yet to veer away from the PWR/RPI ranking system when it comes to selecting at large teams.

So, while the committee has the power to deny Bemidji for whatever reason they see fit, they have not used that power in recent seasons. As far as I know, they've never used it.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

You need someone to blame, but that is the first time I have seen the finger pointed at the AHA. Tnlong's comment targeted "hockey elite" schools (specifically in the CCHA I assume) for blocking UAH from entering the conference. I'm deducting that, without knowledge of who voted what, and by the encrypted doubletalk out of the CCHA office, the most pushback came from the small programs that are struggling to compete in our conference.

These programs have to deal with limited budgets and revenue streams, let along have another similar program fight for the recruiting and television scraps left from Notre Dame, Michigan and MSU (and in some degree Ohio State and Miami). The programs previously mentioned are unaffected in the big picture and have not officially shared any opinion on the matter. Don't confuse that with indifference, though. I don't think these programs want to see other programs shut down, but their first priority should be the health of the teams in their own conference. UNO's departure simply opened up a way to cut short term costs.

There is no doubt that WMU, BGSU, NMU, LSSU, FSU and Alaska all have tighter budgets, less revenue options and greater reasons to deny membership than the other schools mentioned. It's even more amazing that of this group, the two schools that should have more diverse resource options have brought up the rear in the CCHA for over a decade and have even considered cutting hockey until grass roots efforts halted that. That's a pretty compelling reason to vote against new membership. Vilifying the CCHA, and specifically the anchor schools for making a business decision based on their members needs is ignorant. UAH has made a compelling argument that they would fit, and had to prove that they would add as much or more value as UNO. I don't think that is entirely the reason they weren't admitted, and the door is not closed to their admittance. Frankly, I think Anastos supports it.

The real hammer is the collective member schools comprising the NCAA and the committee members overseeing NCAA hockey. Blame them for allowing the conference musical chairs that is going on and for allowing the CHA to be broken up in the first place.

Oh, I think you're right. I'd rather blame the mythical BTHC.

GFM

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Oh come on, they had a Cinderella Story right there with Bemidji State going to DC. ESPN loves a Cinderella Story and BSU made use of the fact that a previous local Cinderella Story from the year before that in D1 Hoops, George Mason, wasn't busy and could borrow their band for the weekend.

Its a College Championship, I don't care what you got going on there, if its Women's Softball, Men's Division 2 football, Men's D3 Hockey, or College Equesterian. If you're going to call yourself any sort of a college sports fan, you come across that on the TV, you're watching it. If not, then you're just not Hardcore enough.

I'm apparently not hardcore enough, because I will not be stopping on a channel showing College Equesterian anytime soon.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Would it make you feal better if Bemidji joined the Union?

Actually, I really do have mixed opinions on the subject. I just like to challenge assumptions and pose difficult to answer questions to anyone who takes a firm stance on one side or the other.

Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with the topic, so PLEASE ignore us here.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I'm apparently not hardcore enough, because I will not be stopping on a channel showing College Equesterian anytime soon.

Don't knock it till you tried it. College girls that don't mind big hairy animals, usually wearing skintight outfits, often keep a riding crop in their back pocket. There's a lot to love right there.

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I wonder how many folks would complain incessantly if Brown ends up winning the ECAC tournament. Currently, Brown sits below UAH in RPI (which would be sure to change, of course, if they win out). Heck, add Canisius to the mix; that would create a situation where at least 3 teams with RPIs lower than 40 (currently, of course; at least they would all be lower than 30, I would expect) would make the tournament. I give serious props to Bemidji for having an OUTSTANDING season this year, thereby getting an at-large berth (or so it would seem they will receive); the CHA, even at just 4 teams in size, was, for all intents and purposes, a strong conference. Geof has provided ample evidence to that, in my opinion. AND, the fact that Bemidji, which was by far the strongest of the CHA teams, could not make it through a two-game tournament for the overall championship, shows that anything can happen when such important titles are on the line, particularly over such an intense weekend between competitors that know each other's strengths and weaknesses quite well. For all the times UAH "should have" gotten into the tournament over the years of CHA play, it's only fitting the teams made it automatically in Ross' final year and now in the CHA's final year. College hockey is better for it. And for those who blabber on here with disrespect for the Chargers, why don't you just come on down to Huntsville and visit? You may be surprised at how much you will enjoy the place.

Oh, and Geof, I was being "funny" with the title of the thread. Of course I knew "have" was proper.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

The goal is to determine the best team in the country on 10 April. Teams improve and teams regress over the course of a season. Regardless of records, every team deserves the opportunity to prove that they are the best on 10 April through the tournament route. The sad thing is that UAH has alone been denied that opportunity by the hockey elite in 2011 and onward.

If you look in the handbook (handbook page 10),
http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/ice_hockey/2010/10_1_m_icehockey.pdf
you can see that the selection committee still has enough "wiggle room" to deny Bemidji an opportunity to make a return trip to the final four if they decide that there are 16 better teams than Bemidji.
"The committee reserves the right to evaluate each team based on the relative strength of its respective conference using the overall conference RPI and conference comparisons (e.g., Conference A’s won-lost record versus Conference B, etc.) in determining competitive equity."

It's still possible that the Beaver's inability to beat any of the other three CHA teams in its last three games may cause the selection committee to look closely. Regardless, UAH's ability to go undefeated against the other three CHA teams in its last three games gives them a tournament route opportunity that every team in the country deserves and that they alone will be denied after this year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing preventing UAH from making the tournament next year as well. You don't have to be in a conference to be invited as an at-large. Obviously it is probably not going to happen, but if they were to run the table next year they'd certainly have the PWR to make it. As long as you play the requisite # of games against other D1 schools, you are included in the discussion.

 

[MikeAnderson]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing preventing UAH from making the tournament next year as well. You don't have to be in a conference to be invited as an at-large. Obviously it is probably not going to happen, but if they were to run the table next year they'd certainly have the PWR to make it. As long as you play the requisite # of games against other D1 schools, you are included in the discussion.

That is correct. The minimum number of games is 20 (thus the original length of the CHA season when the league was founded).

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I'm deducting that, without knowledge of who voted what, and by the encrypted doubletalk out of the CCHA office, the most pushback came from the small programs that are struggling to compete in our conference.

I wish I could post for the record by who and when this information was given to me, but I can sort of be a second source for what streaker posted. In addition I have been led to believe that the schools in the CCHA are waiting to see how a few other things play out in the next season or two.