Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

[gfmorris]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I wish I could post for the record by who and when this information was given to me, but I can sort of be a second source for what streaker posted. In addition I have been led to believe that the schools in the CCHA are waiting to see how a few other things play out in the next season or two.

As long as we can keep getting schedules, I think we're pretty patient. You know, within reason.

GFM

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing preventing UAH from making the tournament next year as well. You don't have to be in a conference to be invited as an at-large. Obviously it is probably not going to happen, but if they were to run the table next year they'd certainly have the PWR to make it. As long as you play the requisite # of games against other D1 schools, you are included in the discussion.

Yes, that's simply a statement of the obvious. It has nothing to do with my premise that a tournament route to the NCAA tournament is necessary to ensure that a team which has improved significantly during the year has a chance to prove that they are the best on the last day of the year. And, UAH alone will be denied that opportunity in the future.

The goal is to determine the best team in the country on 10 April. Teams improve and teams regress over the course of a season. Regardless of records, every team deserves the opportunity to prove that they are the best on 10 April through the tournament route. ...

 

[CLS]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Yes, that's simply a statement of the obvious. It has nothing to do with my premise that a tournament route to the NCAA tournament is necessary to ensure that a team which has improved significantly during the year has a chance to prove that they are the best on the last day of the year. And, UAH alone will be denied that opportunity in the future.

Not quite. Providence and Northeastern were denied that opportunity this year, though I'll grant that at least they had a chance to be in a conference tournament. And remember that there's nothing to keep a conference from awarding the autobid to the the regular season winner (Betcha UNH wished HE did that now).

Remember also that your original premise

The goal is to determine the best team in the country on 10 April. Teams improve and teams regress over the course of a season. Regardless of records, every team deserves the opportunity to prove that they are the best on 10 April through the tournament route. ...

is up for debate. The NCAA used to give the last __ (I think it was 12 or 16) games extra weight but they don't any more. While it's probably a truism that the best team in the country in the weeks leading up to April 10 wins the tournament, there are many who believe that whether you get the chance to show that you are the best team on April 10 should be shown by your performance over the entire season. If the goal of the tournament is to show who's best on April 10, why are the seedings based on the record over the entire season?

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

... If the goal of the tournament is to show who's best on April 10, why are the seedings based on the record over the entire season?

Of course, it's to reward those with the best record and give them the "easiest" route. But, seeding should have no effect on the "best" team because they should be able to 4-0 in their last four games of the year, regardless of who their opponents are. However, seeding gives an advantage to the #16 seed in a strange sort of way in that they get their supposedly "hardest" game out of the way first.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Just to throw a couple of facts into the mix... and some comments and ramblings...

Several posts back someone intimated that AH had some small responsibility in the current CHA situation. Here's something to consider. When explored a couple of years before Air Force was accepted into AH, UAH was told that they didn't fit the AH footprint... and AF does?

As to the six CCHA teams mentioned with tight budgets that may have voted against UAH's entry into the CCHA, you can eliminate Alaska and BGSU as they supported UAH on that issue. One thing probably none of us actually thought about in the expected UAH filling the vacating UNO slot was that the smaller schools were NOT looking at it as a simple swap of destinations (the no-brainer scenario), they were looking at it as eliminating the trip (and associated costs) of going to UNO. They saw it as a way to cut costs. How it affected "College Hockey" had nothing to do with it...sadly. It was purely economic, and until the country recovers economically, and Michigan especially, entry is certainly not assured. One can only hope that the unbalanced schedule is such a pain in the arse, that along with our travel cost reimbursement offers (the last proposal was $5,000 per trip) they will reconsider and accept us.

Now, for us dreamers, the ideal situation for CHA fans would be that BSU and UAH meet in the Frozen Four for a national title. Since these two teams go back to the DII days of swapping National Championships and love to beat each other, it would be a truly fitting end to the CHA. And wow, would it upset a bunch of whiners.

And now a comment on the guy complaining that TV viewership was worse because Bemidji was in the FF and that more people would watch Michigan. Well, in TV terms there was virtually no difference since the number of fans watching College Hockey, as previously noted, is miniscule in the grand scheme of TV ratings things. "What's a Bemidji" was quoted as being said all around DC... well, one heck of alot of people NOW know what a Bemidji is. And it's even likely that more will find out this year. Thinking that Michigan vs Notre Dame (to pull two well known names from the hat) will draw more viewers than Bemidji vs Miami, while true in absolute numbers, would not ONE ratings point make a difference, nor even a measurable partial point. I contend that having more names thrown into the TV hat has a higher chance of increasing total veiwership over time than seeing the same 4 to 8 names but still won't change the total ratings points worth mentioning. The guy who said he knew a bunch of people that watched Michigan (or something like that) can't possibly know enough people to make a difference in how many watch a college hockey games since a single ratings point is over a million viewers. Does he know that many that would watch Michigan over Bemidji? I think not.

Well, that's about enough rambling for now as, let's face it, this thread is meaningless anyway...

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

As to the six CCHA teams mentioned with tight budgets that may have voted against UAH's entry into the CCHA, you can eliminate Alaska and BGSU as they supported UAH on that issue.

When I presented my premise I was challenged because I could not prove how any specific CCHA team voted. I spelled out an explanation. Can you produce proof that Alaska and BGSU voted/supported in favor of UAH?

At least support your statement with a theory instead of posing it as fact.

One thing probably none of us actually thought about in the expected UAH filling the vacating UNO slot was that the smaller schools were NOT looking at it as a simple swap of destinations (the no-brainer scenario), they were looking at it as eliminating the trip (and associated costs) of going to UNO. They saw it as a way to cut costs. How it affected "College Hockey" had nothing to do with it...sadly. It was purely economic, and until the country recovers economically, and Michigan especially, entry is certainly not assured. One can only hope that the unbalanced schedule is such a pain in the arse, that along with our travel cost reimbursement offers (the last proposal was $5,000 per trip) they will reconsider and accept us.

I think you just repeated part of my explanation, too.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

When I presented my premise I was challenged because I could not prove how any specific CCHA team voted. I spelled out an explanation. Can you produce proof that Alaska and BGSU voted/supported in favor of UAH?

Alaska: All public commentary by AD Forrest Karr indicates that he was on our side. [1] Also, Karr, according to UAH officials that I won't name, was very much pro-UAH behind the scenes.

BGSU: Dennis Williams used to be an assistant here. He and Danton Cole have a good relationship. We'd know if they were against us, because Willie would be mad and would have let us know.

Past that, we're speculating. You can argue, streaker, that we're speculating on Alaska and BGSU, and that may well be true.

[1] http://saveuahhockey.com/2009/08/14/alaska-fairbanks-ad-forrest-karr-on-what-holds-uah-back/

 

[Douglas]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

...Can you produce proof that Alaska and BGSU voted/supported in favor of UAH? At least support your statement with a theory instead of posing it as fact...

What Geof said is pretty much on the mark. Forrest Karr has publicly stated that he supported UAH's admission and he did work behind the scenes on our behalf. Anastos did not, unlike McLeod that with pressure and support went after UNO to make sure Bemidji could get in. Anymore than that and I would be divluging private information which I will not do. I was just trying to narrow down your list a little for you. Whether you believe me or not doesn't really matter to me.

As for your other statement; yes, I pretty much was supporting your explanation. What I was pointing out was that none of us were "thinking" in those solely economic terms. What seemed like a no brainer to us and one heck of a lot of others was that UAH for UNO was virtually an even swap as there was something like only 30 or 40 miles average travel difference plus they would be getting a travel subsidy and UAH simply takes over UNO's schedule. The collective "we" never even considered they wanted to eliminate the UNO trip. Bad on us no doubt.

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Alaska: All public commentary by AD Forrest Karr indicates that he was on our side. [1] Also, Karr, according to UAH officials that I won't name, was very much pro-UAH behind the scenes.

BGSU: Dennis Williams used to be an assistant here. He and Danton Cole have a good relationship. We'd know if they were against us, because Willie would be mad and would have let us know.

Past that, we're speculating. You can argue, streaker, that we're speculating on Alaska and BGSU, and that may well be true.

[1] http://saveuahhockey.com/2009/08/14/alaska-fairbanks-ad-forrest-karr-on-what-holds-uah-back/

Thanks for the attachment. I don't see the endorsement, though. I see an explanation from Karr on what the overall concerns (amongst the CCHA) were with UAH. I think that was the least a rep for the CCHA could offer, which didn't pass the smell test for most outsiders. The last comment he made was standard political correctness.

I am sure that Karr was very positive and gave a good impression to the UAH officials, as a rep for the CCHA.

As for the BG angle, it is conjecture.


Let me relate a quick story similar to this. The Michigan and Ohio State football teams played to a 10-10 tie in 1973. This game would decide the Big Ten Champion and Rose Bowl invitation. In that game Michigan's starting QB broke his collarbone and was lost for the season. The Big Ten had a rule that no other bowl games were allowed to be participated in. Both teams were undefeated and deserved the trip, although OSU had gone the previous year.

The Big Ten commissioner and his fellow AD's met to vote on who the Big Ten would send. Michigan felt confident that, based on their record and that OSU had gone the previous season, they would be voted in.

They weren't, and were voted down 5-4. The deciding vote was cast by the Michigan State AD, who allegedly, pledged to Michigan's AD at the time that he'd vote Michigan. He changed his vote due to the injury, not on the body of their work.

So take it for what it is worth. Stuff happens, and so does smoke filled back room politics.

 

[ChargerBlue]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

When I presented my premise I was challenged because I could not prove how any specific CCHA team voted. I spelled out an explanation. Can you produce proof that Alaska and BGSU voted/supported in favor of UAH?

There was only a voice vote of acclimation therefore there weren't actual votes cast period.

My theory is that Northern, Western, Ferris and Lake State would've voted no. That's all it took opposed for the measure to fail.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Let me relate a quick story similar to this. The Michigan and Ohio State football teams played to a 10-10 tie in 1973. This game would decide the Big Ten Champion and Rose Bowl invitation. In that game Michigan's starting QB broke his collarbone and was lost for the season. The Big Ten had a rule that no other bowl games were allowed to be participated in. Both teams were undefeated and deserved the trip, although OSU had gone the previous year.

The Big Ten commissioner and his fellow AD's met to vote on who the Big Ten would send. Michigan felt confident that, based on their record and that OSU had gone the previous season, they would be voted in.

They weren't, and were voted down 5-4. The deciding vote was cast by the Michigan State AD, who allegedly, pledged to Michigan's AD at the time that he'd vote Michigan. He changed his vote due to the injury, not on the body of their work.

So take it for what it is worth. Stuff happens, and so does smoke filled back room politics.

That "whirring" sound you hear is Bo Schembechler spinning in his grave. No decision ever made him madder...

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

There was only a voice vote of acclimation therefore there weren't actual votes cast period.

My theory is that Northern, Western, Ferris and Lake State would've voted no. That's all it took opposed for the measure to fail.

Sorry, I'm not familiar.. sounds like they are not using a simple majority quorum versus a complete consensus, like in a jury trial situation.

Either way, I hope UAH finds a home whether in the CCHA or elsewhere.

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

That "whirring" sound you hear is Bo Schembechler spinning in his grave. No decision ever made him madder...

Well, it did eventually lead to the Big Ten allowing teams to go to other bowls, in 1975. I think Michigan went 50-4-1 from 1970 to 1974 (all blemishes to OSU) and never went to a bowl. That was why he was so mad. He never forgave MSU for it, either.

It isn't like potentially losing your program completely, though. I can empathize with UAH fans.

 

[ChargerBlue]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Sorry, I'm not familiar.. sounds like they are not using a simple majority quorum versus a complete consensus, like in a jury trial situation.

Either way, I hope UAH finds a home whether in the CCHA or elsewhere.

CCHA requires a 3/4 vote and with UNO not allowed to vote on the issue, it only takes four teams against to kill the measure.

 

[Alton]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

CCHA requires a 3/4 vote and with UNO not allowed to vote on the issue, it only takes four teams against to kill the measure.

Three teams, actually, since an 8-3 vote is less than 3/4.

All I can add to this discussion is that the vote to admit Nebraska-Omaha 10 years ago was 9-2, with Western Michigan and Lake Superior voting "no."

I infer, from the articles I have read, that it was clear during the League Meetings that there were 3 or more teams strongly opposed to admitting Alabama-Huntsville, and as a result the Directors never bothered to take a formal vote.

Who were those 3 or more teams? The people who know are keeping their mouths shut and/or trying to deflect the question. We will probably never know, but we can certainly guess that the vote was along the same lines as the one 10 years ago, with the smaller-budget CCHA teams more reluctant to expand.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I wish I could post for the record by who and when this information was given to me, but I can sort of be a second source for what streaker posted. In addition I have been led to believe that the schools in the CCHA are waiting to see how a few other things play out in the next season or two.

Geof/Douglas,
Have you two considered using this approach? Just be the "second source" for each other when challenged on your inputs.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Geof/Douglas,
Have you two considered using this approach? Just be the "second source" for each other when challenged on your inputs.

I prefer to use my mom for the second source.

GFM

 

[tnlong]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

I'll call bs on that one. If we are going to circle back to this argument, it wasn't the "hockey elite" schools that had concerns about letting UAH in the CCHA. It was the smaller schools with tighter budgets that voiced concerns about entry. Keep propagating the bitter nonsense, especially since the door isn't closed. Instead, blame the body of institutions that make up the NCAA for their indifference towards what is right for college hockey.

After watching this circle around and around with everyone claiming to have sources which they can't divulge, I'll call bs. The "hockey elite" have the power to speak up, let their vote be known, and influence "what is right for college hockey". In absence of that, they are every bit as much of the problem as "the smaller schools". Plus, I think $ isn't as much of the real reason as just the "laziness" of not wanting to travel and the simple elitist attitude of "they shouldn't be playing hockey in Alabama".

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

Geof/Douglas,
Have you two considered using this approach? Just be the "second source" for each other when challenged on your inputs.

I prefer to use my mom for the second source.

GFM

Geof second sourced your mom last night. Oooh!

 

[streaker]

Re: Who'd of thunk it - 2 CHA teams in the Big Skate

After watching this circle around and around with everyone claiming to have sources which they can't divulge, I'll call bs. The "hockey elite" have the power to speak up, let their vote be known, and influence "what is right for college hockey". In absence of that, they are every bit as much of the problem as "the smaller schools". Plus, I think $ isn't as much of the real reason as just the "laziness" of not wanting to travel and the simple elitist attitude of "they shouldn't be playing hockey in Alabama".

If you really think this boils down to petty attitudes regarding travel and geographical profiling, then you need a bottle and a nap. Just make sure you stomp your foot extra hard next time and the CCHA may change its mind. Keep pointing fingers and making up excuses. When is your institution going to take ownership of the situation and make their appeal more economically compelling to the CCHA? Why is it that they are the only team in the CHA looking for a home? Somehow I am missing the part where UAH shares some of the burden of responsibility here instead of being the poor abused victim of the hockey elite. Spare me the bleeding heart spin where the CCHA institutions are dastardly villains.

I like GF Morris' approach much better. Stop poking the stick at the dogs guarding the gate. The chances that they'll curry favor for you are greater that way.