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What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
- Thread starter Rogie21
- Start date
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Its not necessarily that conservatives are stupid per se, the problem is the current party, both GOP maintstream, Tea party, right wing media, are pushing stupid issues. For that reason, its not a leap to say they're doing so to appeal to stupid people.
Don't take my word for it; read this article from an old time conservative:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...ghoffer-conservatism-20100801,0,3905768.story
The guy's exactly right. When 40% of your party thinks the President was born outside of the US, that's a problem. Same thing with Death Panels and other such nonsense.
Lets take by far the most popular Republican amongst Republicans today - Sarah Palin. I don't for one minute consider her stupid. She's playing a character, and its going to make her wealthy beyond her wildest imagination. Why? Because she playing an image, much like GWB, that says being intelligent is something to not be trusted, while acting stupid = authenticity.
So, if conservatives get stereotyped as idiots, thank the people you all choose to follow. Plenty of people didn't like Bill Clinton, but not too many questioned his intelligence. Same with Bush I. The problem now is this fidelity to stupidity is starting to suck in the more rational voices in the party. Witness McCain's conversion to wacko and Romney's idiocy about how signing the START treaty with Russia will prevent the US from responding to an attack.
Bottom line, if the shoe fits, wear it. There's plenty of conservative but sane voices in the GOP to follow (Lindsey Graham for example). If I were you, I'd start following them. The great conservative hope in this year's election seems to be that only conservatives show up on election day, not an effort to win over converts. That strategy is a recipe for disaster as that's when the Dems tried to do in the pre-Howard Dean running the DNC days.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Its not necessarily that conservatives are stupid per se, the problem is the current party, both GOP maintstream, Tea party, right wing media, are pushing stupid issues. For that reason, its not a leap to say they're doing so to appeal to stupid people.
Don't take my word for it; read this article from an old time conservative:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...ghoffer-conservatism-20100801,0,3905768.story
The guy's exactly right. When 40% of your party thinks the President was born outside of the US, that's a problem. Same thing with Death Panels and other such nonsense.
Lets take by far the most popular Republican amongst Republicans today - Sarah Palin. I don't for one minute consider her stupid. She's playing a character, and its going to make her wealthy beyond her wildest imagination. Why? Because she playing an image, much like GWB, that says being intelligent is something to not be trusted, while acting stupid = authenticity.
So, if conservatives get stereotyped as idiots, thank the people you all choose to follow. Plenty of people didn't like Bill Clinton, but not too many questioned his intelligence. Same with Bush I. The problem now is this fidelity to stupidity is starting to suck in the more rational voices in the party. Witness McCain's conversion to wacko and Romney's idiocy about how signing the START treaty with Russia will prevent the US from responding to an attack.
Bottom line, if the shoe fits, wear it. There's plenty of conservative but sane voices in the GOP to follow (Lindsey Graham for example). If I were you, I'd start following them. The great conservative hope in this year's election seems to be that only conservatives show up on election day, not an effort to win over converts. That strategy is a recipe for disaster as that's when the Dems tried to do in the pre-Howard Dean running the DNC days.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
The GOP will only have a "disaster" in this year's election if you intentionally define that term relative to completely unrealistic expectations ("Oh noes! The Republicans didn't win a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate! Disaster!"). By any realistic measure, they are going to have a good election, especially considering where they were just two short years ago.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
The GOP will only have a "disaster" in this year's election if you intentionally define that term relative to completely unrealistic expectations ("Oh noes! The Republicans didn't win a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate! Disaster!"). By any realistic measure, they are going to have a good election, especially considering where they were just two short years ago.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I question how conservative Graham actually is, so it's obvious why you want people to follow him. You think he'll be the next Specter. Not a good idea for actual conservatives.
Yes, that is their hope this year because that's exactly what happened last election. There were no worthy conservatives to vote for, so rather then trying to decide between who will screw you over more, they just stayed home. They need to appeal to the base and get them out to win.
Also it looks like they don't need to win over any converts because Obama and the Congress is doing that part for them according to most major polls. Why would they want to compromise they're principles in an attempt to win? Win with what you believe and how you will act once in office. If the public doesn't want that, you will lose and set the stage for a dramatic return to power if they don't do something stupid to screw it up. Don't go against the will of the people that gave you the job because they will turn against you as we will see in the election.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I question how conservative Graham actually is, so it's obvious why you want people to follow him. You think he'll be the next Specter. Not a good idea for actual conservatives.
Yes, that is their hope this year because that's exactly what happened last election. There were no worthy conservatives to vote for, so rather then trying to decide between who will screw you over more, they just stayed home. They need to appeal to the base and get them out to win.
Also it looks like they don't need to win over any converts because Obama and the Congress is doing that part for them according to most major polls. Why would they want to compromise they're principles in an attempt to win? Win with what you believe and how you will act once in office. If the public doesn't want that, you will lose and set the stage for a dramatic return to power if they don't do something stupid to screw it up. Don't go against the will of the people that gave you the job because they will turn against you as we will see in the election.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
He is as conservative as Snowe and Collins
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
He is as conservative as Snowe and Collins
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
heh... yup. To Rover, sane = liberal RINO.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
He is as conservative as Snowe and Collins
heh... yup. To Rover, sane = liberal RINO.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Given the estimated cost of invading Honshu (a million allied casualties) and the actual cost of the Manhattan Project, I can't imagine anyone in the oval deciding against using the bomb.
You have to put yourself in the mind of America and Americans at the time. The "Japs" had attacked us at Pearl Harbor. The "Japs" had caused countless American deaths during the Bataan "death march." The "Japs" had tried and executed American flyers from the Doolittle raid as though they were spys. In some instances "Japs" had murdered captured American flyers and eaten their livers! The death rate of American POWS in the hands of the "Japs" was many times higher than the death rate for our POWs in German hands. The "Japs" had conducted horrific "medical" experiments on US prisoners in Harbin. And on and on.
Think about GI's who had landed at Normandy, who had every reason to believe their war was over, being transferred to the Pacific in anticipation of an invasion of the home islands. Look at the invasion of Okinawa and how bloody and fanatical their defense was. We would have wound up killing children on the beaches in any invasion of the home islands. The political damage from discovering that tens of thousands of American lives would have been saved by using this previously unknown technology would have lasted for a generation or more--"My dad died because you were too chicken bleep to drop the bomb."
After the Potsdam Declaration, the Japanese said they would ignore the demands for unconditional surrender (mokusatsu) and they were even negotiating with the Soviets to keep the Russians out of the Pacific war. And they didn't surrender after Hiroshima. It took a second attack to get through to them that the jig was up. And even then, some officers tried to keep Hirohito's call for surrender from being broadcast on NHK.
While I'm no expert on the personalities, I'm curious who your nominee would be for the guy in the oval who would refuse to drop the bomb to end the war. Republican or Democrat. Who would take such a position, given the factors at play. Okay, Henry Morgenthou, but he was a Socialist (whose deputy, the communist Harry Dexter White, had drawn up the Morgenthou Plan for reducing Germany to a pastoral existence) and was never going to be president. Other than him, who?
Under the resignation scenario, you're correct, no way Truman becomes VP. But that misses the point. This previously unknown "senator from Pendergast", takes the oath, and despite total ignorance of the existance of the bomb, decides to use it. He had no choice. And neither would anyone else serving as president.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Given the estimated cost of invading Honshu (a million allied casualties) and the actual cost of the Manhattan Project, I can't imagine anyone in the oval deciding against using the bomb.
You have to put yourself in the mind of America and Americans at the time. The "Japs" had attacked us at Pearl Harbor. The "Japs" had caused countless American deaths during the Bataan "death march." The "Japs" had tried and executed American flyers from the Doolittle raid as though they were spys. In some instances "Japs" had murdered captured American flyers and eaten their livers! The death rate of American POWS in the hands of the "Japs" was many times higher than the death rate for our POWs in German hands. The "Japs" had conducted horrific "medical" experiments on US prisoners in Harbin. And on and on.
Think about GI's who had landed at Normandy, who had every reason to believe their war was over, being transferred to the Pacific in anticipation of an invasion of the home islands. Look at the invasion of Okinawa and how bloody and fanatical their defense was. We would have wound up killing children on the beaches in any invasion of the home islands. The political damage from discovering that tens of thousands of American lives would have been saved by using this previously unknown technology would have lasted for a generation or more--"My dad died because you were too chicken bleep to drop the bomb."
After the Potsdam Declaration, the Japanese said they would ignore the demands for unconditional surrender (mokusatsu) and they were even negotiating with the Soviets to keep the Russians out of the Pacific war. And they didn't surrender after Hiroshima. It took a second attack to get through to them that the jig was up. And even then, some officers tried to keep Hirohito's call for surrender from being broadcast on NHK.
While I'm no expert on the personalities, I'm curious who your nominee would be for the guy in the oval who would refuse to drop the bomb to end the war. Republican or Democrat. Who would take such a position, given the factors at play. Okay, Henry Morgenthou, but he was a Socialist (whose deputy, the communist Harry Dexter White, had drawn up the Morgenthou Plan for reducing Germany to a pastoral existence) and was never going to be president. Other than him, who?
Under the resignation scenario, you're correct, no way Truman becomes VP. But that misses the point. This previously unknown "senator from Pendergast", takes the oath, and despite total ignorance of the existance of the bomb, decides to use it. He had no choice. And neither would anyone else serving as president.
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Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
So, Pio, if it was so irrelevant who was elected in 1944, tell us again why it was such a "scandal" (your word) that the press didn't report on Roosevelt's health?
You previously argued that Roosevelt's election did not end the war a single day sooner, and now you're essentially applying that same argument to every possible candidate - real or hypothetical.
So what's the difference? How would the country have been better off if the press had convinced people not to re-elect FDR because of his health?
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
So, Pio, if it was so irrelevant who was elected in 1944, tell us again why it was such a "scandal" (your word) that the press didn't report on Roosevelt's health?
You previously argued that Roosevelt's election did not end the war a single day sooner, and now you're essentially applying that same argument to every possible candidate - real or hypothetical.
So what's the difference? How would the country have been better off if the press had convinced people not to re-elect FDR because of his health?
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
The problem is the GOP isn't winning over Obama voters, which is what they need to do. So, lets take the elections as they stand now. A 20+ point differential in voter enthusiasm. That's going to tighten come election time. It always does regardless of who's the incumbent party and who isn't. The GOP may attain normal historical gains that tend to come in these elections, but during the Presidential election when its Obama vs Palin you can expect to be back to 2006 & 2008 levels. At some point you have to convince people to vote for you (say Reagan for example) if you want to make real progress.
In the meantime, thanks to coddling wackos, conservatives have p!ssed away a seat in Nevada and Florida and perhaps in Connecticut. Time will tell on several others. At some point the Obama born in Kenya crowd has to stop being humored, because that will come back to bite you.
Old Pio, you have an, um, "interesting" take on history. If you wouldn't mind, please give us your view on several other history making events. Why don't you tackle the moon landing next.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
The problem is the GOP isn't winning over Obama voters, which is what they need to do. So, lets take the elections as they stand now. A 20+ point differential in voter enthusiasm. That's going to tighten come election time. It always does regardless of who's the incumbent party and who isn't. The GOP may attain normal historical gains that tend to come in these elections, but during the Presidential election when its Obama vs Palin you can expect to be back to 2006 & 2008 levels. At some point you have to convince people to vote for you (say Reagan for example) if you want to make real progress.
In the meantime, thanks to coddling wackos, conservatives have p!ssed away a seat in Nevada and Florida and perhaps in Connecticut. Time will tell on several others. At some point the Obama born in Kenya crowd has to stop being humored, because that will come back to bite you.
Old Pio, you have an, um, "interesting" take on history. If you wouldn't mind, please give us your view on several other history making events. Why don't you tackle the moon landing next.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Pass. I've explained it now a couple of times and you're obviously incapable of seeing the point. Whether or not it made no difference in the outcome of the war, covering up the terminal illness of a candidate for president was not, is not, and never can be justified--except in your mind.
Whoever was elected in '44 was irrelevant only in the context of whether we would see the war though to its conclusion. There are numerous other matters that might have turned out differently, depending on who was sitting in the oval.
The country is "better off" when it knows whether it's electing a "dead man walking" to the presidency or not. I have suggested the media resort to the revolutionary concept of telling rather than concealing the truth. In a free country the press shouldn't be in the business of "convincing" the voters to do anything. You have argued that it's okay for the media to substitute their judgement for the judgement of the voters. You have an interesting view of how things should be in our country. -30-
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Pass. I've explained it now a couple of times and you're obviously incapable of seeing the point. Whether or not it made no difference in the outcome of the war, covering up the terminal illness of a candidate for president was not, is not, and never can be justified--except in your mind.
Whoever was elected in '44 was irrelevant only in the context of whether we would see the war though to its conclusion. There are numerous other matters that might have turned out differently, depending on who was sitting in the oval.
The country is "better off" when it knows whether it's electing a "dead man walking" to the presidency or not. I have suggested the media resort to the revolutionary concept of telling rather than concealing the truth. In a free country the press shouldn't be in the business of "convincing" the voters to do anything. You have argued that it's okay for the media to substitute their judgement for the judgement of the voters. You have an interesting view of how things should be in our country. -30-
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Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Why don't you b**w me?
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
The problem is the GOP isn't winning over Obama voters, which is what they need to do. So, lets take the elections as they stand now. A 20+ point differential in voter enthusiasm. That's going to tighten come election time. It always does regardless of who's the incumbent party and who isn't. The GOP may attain normal historical gains that tend to come in these elections, but during the Presidential election when its Obama vs Palin you can expect to be back to 2006 & 2008 levels. At some point you have to convince people to vote for you (say Reagan for example) if you want to make real progress.
In the meantime, thanks to coddling wackos, conservatives have p!ssed away a seat in Nevada and Florida and perhaps in Connecticut. Time will tell on several others. At some point the Obama born in Kenya crowd has to stop being humored, because that will come back to bite you.
Old Pio, you have an, um, "interesting" take on history. If you wouldn't mind, please give us your view on several other history making events. Why don't you tackle the moon landing next.
Why don't you b**w me?
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I know it is engaging in a bit of self deception to look back at the days when Buckley and others (including W Safire in an odd sense) were spokespersons for conservatism. But it seems to me that the GOP is in danger of ceding the ground of that debate to people like Beck, Limbaugh, and Palin. Obama is fairly criticized for relying on simplistic slogans, but at he at least appears to prefer a policy discussion. One of his criticisms by media and a great source of worry for Plouffe and Axelrod was his inability in the early debates to master the sound bite--he preferred to analyze, and that did not come across very well to viewers. But the voices that seem to have the biggest audience for the GOP these days seem to belong to people like Beck et al., and that does not do justice to conservative philosophy, IMO.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I know it is engaging in a bit of self deception to look back at the days when Buckley and others (including W Safire in an odd sense) were spokespersons for conservatism. But it seems to me that the GOP is in danger of ceding the ground of that debate to people like Beck, Limbaugh, and Palin. Obama is fairly criticized for relying on simplistic slogans, but at he at least appears to prefer a policy discussion. One of his criticisms by media and a great source of worry for Plouffe and Axelrod was his inability in the early debates to master the sound bite--he preferred to analyze, and that did not come across very well to viewers. But the voices that seem to have the biggest audience for the GOP these days seem to belong to people like Beck et al., and that does not do justice to conservative philosophy, IMO.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I was just thinking how conservatives should be listening to Lindsay Graham more. I mean, he was best friends with the guy who racked up a whopping 45.7% of the vote in the last presidential election. He clearly knows how to pick winning policies.
Or perhaps we should be listening to Bob Bennett. Oh wait, 3rd place in his own GOP primary. Or maybe Bob Inglis. Oops, also trounced in the primaries.
Let's have someone who hasn't been solidly rejected by the voters talk about the dire state of the GOP, and then maybe I'll listen.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I was just thinking how conservatives should be listening to Lindsay Graham more. I mean, he was best friends with the guy who racked up a whopping 45.7% of the vote in the last presidential election. He clearly knows how to pick winning policies.
Or perhaps we should be listening to Bob Bennett. Oh wait, 3rd place in his own GOP primary. Or maybe Bob Inglis. Oops, also trounced in the primaries.
Let's have someone who hasn't been solidly rejected by the voters talk about the dire state of the GOP, and then maybe I'll listen.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
It isn't only on the right that political discussion and analysis has degenerated into a contact sport. That's why I don't watch Fox or MSNBC (well, I did watch MSNBC the night Scott Brown was elected, guilty pleasure).
Obama is as divisive a figure as I can recall in the WH. He now claims that the question of whether or not a mosque should be located so close to ground zero is a "local matter" and he won't comment. However, the fact that it was a "local matter" didn't stop him from flappping his big yapper when his pal Skip Gates got busted in Cambridge. And those comments were made during a nationally televised news conference. Phony.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
It isn't only on the right that political discussion and analysis has degenerated into a contact sport. That's why I don't watch Fox or MSNBC (well, I did watch MSNBC the night Scott Brown was elected, guilty pleasure).
Obama is as divisive a figure as I can recall in the WH. He now claims that the question of whether or not a mosque should be located so close to ground zero is a "local matter" and he won't comment. However, the fact that it was a "local matter" didn't stop him from flappping his big yapper when his pal Skip Gates got busted in Cambridge. And those comments were made during a nationally televised news conference. Phony.
ScottM
**** it feels good to be a bankster
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I tend to agree. People like Will, Friedman, etc. are generally given short-shrift by the right-wing media outlets. They get rid of people with brains and ideas, and replace them with the shrill, angry voices of Beck, Palin, etc. who have no new ideas, no original thinking and no real appeal outside of their respective choirs. As someone noted, the GOP should probably resign itself to being a more rural, older, white, southern, poorer political party.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I tend to agree. People like Will, Friedman, etc. are generally given short-shrift by the right-wing media outlets. They get rid of people with brains and ideas, and replace them with the shrill, angry voices of Beck, Palin, etc. who have no new ideas, no original thinking and no real appeal outside of their respective choirs. As someone noted, the GOP should probably resign itself to being a more rural, older, white, southern, poorer political party.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
While Olbermann, Rachel (I can bench press more than you) Maddow and the rest of that menagerie at MSNBC appeal to a higher class demographic? Spare me.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
While Olbermann, Rachel (I can bench press more than you) Maddow and the rest of that menagerie at MSNBC appeal to a higher class demographic? Spare me.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Fair enough point, but it's not a matter of the political discussion becoming a contact sport--Buckley played it that way. You could certainly disagree with him on many things, but the guy tried to elevate the discussion. And he managed to keep a fair amount of media attention in doing it. That, I admit, might be largely my imagination.
Times have changed, certainly, and both sides (sometimes three) struggle with how to engage in a meaningful debate when so many of us voters want a gut-level, emotional issue we can wrap our ignorant minds around. It's simpler for us that way; we don't have to evaluate a particular policy or issue on its own terms--we just identify its proponent and form our opinions accordingly. We can be secure in our position without being threatened by contradiction, complexity or doubt.
Scott brings up Friedman. He's smart, articulate, and not in lock-step with ideology. The GOP needs someone who is one part Beck and four parts him--only not Jewish, if they want him elected.
Gott get out of this thread--starting to talk through my arse.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Fair enough point, but it's not a matter of the political discussion becoming a contact sport--Buckley played it that way. You could certainly disagree with him on many things, but the guy tried to elevate the discussion. And he managed to keep a fair amount of media attention in doing it. That, I admit, might be largely my imagination.
Times have changed, certainly, and both sides (sometimes three) struggle with how to engage in a meaningful debate when so many of us voters want a gut-level, emotional issue we can wrap our ignorant minds around. It's simpler for us that way; we don't have to evaluate a particular policy or issue on its own terms--we just identify its proponent and form our opinions accordingly. We can be secure in our position without being threatened by contradiction, complexity or doubt.
Scott brings up Friedman. He's smart, articulate, and not in lock-step with ideology. The GOP needs someone who is one part Beck and four parts him--only not Jewish, if they want him elected.
Gott get out of this thread--starting to talk through my arse.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Buckley, quote from 1968, to Gore Vidal
Buckley, on the above exchange, in 1985
I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Buckley, quote from 1968, to Gore Vidal
Buckley, on the above exchange, in 1985
Another good one:
I like William Buckley. But let's not pretend he was all about elevating the discussion. In fact, if he had said the first two quotes in 2010, I'd imagine the liberal media would be calling feverishly for him to resign right now.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Meh. I gave up on him a long time ago. He doesn't want to understand.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Meh. I gave up on him a long time ago. He doesn't want to understand.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I saw a comment on some blog the other day that was along the lines of "the ones that praise him now were those who were tearing him down while he was alive"... he's so good because, you know, he's kinda dead.
You see, the lines of civility aren't drawn down the middle. I mean, dare we forget the junior senator from the state of Minnesota. I mean, we could have an entire book of non-civil talkers on the left... and yes, the right.
Re: What happens when you think Fox News is what free and independent media is all about
I saw a comment on some blog the other day that was along the lines of "the ones that praise him now were those who were tearing him down while he was alive"... he's so good because, you know, he's kinda dead.
You see, the lines of civility aren't drawn down the middle. I mean, dare we forget the junior senator from the state of Minnesota. I mean, we could have an entire book of non-civil talkers on the left... and yes, the right.