WCHA armchair expansion

[Happy]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

BSU got $5 million in donations just for hockey before an arena was anything close to a done deal. So what's Western and BG's excuse?

They are not in the State of Hockey.

 

[Happy]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

NO. It doesn't. Unless your viewpoint is wholly colored by self-interest. Then yeah it makes more sense.

Every other active rivalry in college hockey (except MTU/NMU) is contested within a conference. To say that UAA and UAF can't have theirs just because they're a 5 hour plane ride from Minneapolis or a 6 hour plane ride from Chicago or Detroit is nothing short of hilarious.

How many college hockey teams take 6 hour bus rides EVERY WEEKEND? Or longer? UAA and UAF have (to slightly different degrees) long paid the majority of travel expenses for any school coming here to play.

There is one reason and one reason only that the WCHA and CCHA conspired to keep the Alaska schools in separate conferences. Because the coaches at that time (and probably now) are vaginal surrogates. Yep. It needs to be said.

UAF and UAA travel to the lower 48 every season. Yet historically both finish in the 20-30 KRACH range year after year. That's 6, 7 or 8 such road trips every year.

I've broken down the amount of money that each WCHA school makes by taking a trip to Alaska. With the schedule as it is ... not every school gets to maximize this revenue stream. So they come up during the tournaments that UAA and UAF host every year. It's a pretty simple calculation to figure out exactly how much money a WCHA school makes from playing a home game. Most people could do it in their head. I used to use $15 per seat as a factor and in Wisconsin's case it was still **** near a quarter of a million dollars of revenue from the Alaska exemptions.

Do UAF and UAA get any exemptions from their multiple trips? No. Instead they get punished by their hegemonic conferences. They pay for travel and the visiting schools get to go back and make oodles of cash just because they were brave enough to take a five or six hour plane ride?

The time has come to start calling all this what it is. It's a straight up old style monopolistic trust. I honestly believe that should someone actually bring up a court case that the NCAA, WCHA and CCHA would face some severe penalties. UAA and UAF though haven't been interested in pursuing that path, instead they've quietly gone along with the status quo for the sake of continuing to play. As the WCHA and CCHA break down with BTHC departures, UAA and UAF will combine their efforts and use the power of Alaska/Hawaii rule to better advantage. No longer will the BS excuse that taking a six hour plane ride is a burden prevail. Because it isn't. It's just that simple.

Minnesota fans hate when our team plays in Alaska. the game starts late, and we don't get TV. So, Minnesota would never play a game against either Alaska team without the exemption, and you want to sue the NCAA for having the exemption that is the only thing that gets quality teams to go to Alaska? The NCAA monopolist trust works in your favor, not against you.

 

[ts8801]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

NO. It doesn't. Unless your viewpoint is wholly colored by self-interest. Then yeah it makes more sense.

Every other active rivalry in college hockey (except MTU/NMU) is contested within a conference. To say that UAA and UAF can't have theirs just because they're a 5 hour plane ride from Minneapolis or a 6 hour plane ride from Chicago or Detroit is nothing short of hilarious.

How many college hockey teams take 6 hour bus rides EVERY WEEKEND? Or longer? UAA and UAF have (to slightly different degrees) long paid the majority of travel expenses for any school coming here to play.

There is one reason and one reason only that the WCHA and CCHA conspired to keep the Alaska schools in separate conferences. Because the coaches at that time (and probably now) are vaginal surrogates. Yep. It needs to be said.

UAF and UAA travel to the lower 48 every season. Yet historically both finish in the 20-30 KRACH range year after year. That's 6, 7 or 8 such road trips every year.

I've broken down the amount of money that each WCHA school makes by taking a trip to Alaska. With the schedule as it is ... not every school gets to maximize this revenue stream. So they come up during the tournaments that UAA and UAF host every year. It's a pretty simple calculation to figure out exactly how much money a WCHA school makes from playing a home game. Most people could do it in their head. I used to use $15 per seat as a factor and in Wisconsin's case it was still **** near a quarter of a million dollars of revenue from the Alaska exemptions.

Do UAF and UAA get any exemptions from their multiple trips? No. Instead they get punished by their hegemonic conferences. They pay for travel and the visiting schools get to go back and make oodles of cash just because they were brave enough to take a five or six hour plane ride?

The time has come to start calling all this what it is. It's a straight up old style monopolistic trust. I honestly believe that should someone actually bring up a court case that the NCAA, WCHA and CCHA would face some severe penalties. UAA and UAF though haven't been interested in pursuing that path, instead they've quietly gone along with the status quo for the sake of continuing to play. As the WCHA and CCHA break down with BTHC departures, UAA and UAF will combine their efforts and use the power of Alaska/Hawaii rule to better advantage. No longer will the BS excuse that taking a six hour plane ride is a burden prevail. Because it isn't. It's just that simple.

You realize if that deal was not made, both of the Alaskan school programs would have folded by now right? We are sorry you feel so wronged, but our conferences are the only reason either team still exists

 

[College Hockey Weekend]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Plus, Huntsville would LOVE to be in a conference.

Outside of being a "good conference citizen" and offering a homeless team a home/providing a punching bag for the conference, what's the advantage in adding the Chargers?

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

You realize if that deal was not made, both of the Alaskan school programs would have folded by now right? We are sorry you feel so wronged, but our conferences are the only reason either team still exists

Such assumed histories while perhaps seemingly rational are nonetheless pure supposition. And it wasn't so much a matter of the WCHA and CCHA's desire to save a couple of programs as it was the larger College Hockey community and the NCAA making them do it. In any case, denial of the excellent revenue stream these two teams have provided to their respective conferences cannot be denied.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Minnesota fans hate when our team plays in Alaska. the game starts late, and we don't get TV. So, Minnesota would never play a game against either Alaska team without the exemption, and you want to sue the NCAA for having the exemption that is the only thing that gets quality teams to go to Alaska? The NCAA monopolist trust works in your favor, not against you.

While the NCAA is clearly a monopolist trust it wasn't the one I was referring to. The WCHA is likewise an illegal trust. It is the WCHA and CCHA that have conspired to keep the ice tilted against UAA and UAF. The NCAA used it's power as a trust (via the creation of the Alaska/Hawaii exemption) as you've noted. Yes. That doesn't exonerate the WCHA's use of it's monopoly against UAA.

 

[Happy]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

While the NCAA is clearly a monopolist trust it wasn't the one I was referring to. The WCHA is likewise an illegal trust. It is the WCHA and CCHA that have conspired to keep the ice tilted against UAA and UAF. The NCAA used it's power as a trust (via the creation of the Alaska/Hawaii exemption) as you've noted. Yes. That doesn't exonerate the WCHA's use of it's monopoly against UAA.

You do realize that UAA is a voting member of the monopoly, right. and, you can quit any time you want to. why don't you start up a 3 way conference, both Alaska schools and UAH, and then you will get everything you want. have at it.

 

[komey1]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Outside of being a "good conference citizen" and offering a homeless team a home/providing a punching bag for the conference, what's the advantage in adding the Chargers?

Huntsville fans may not like to hear this, but the first part - "good conference citizen" is the only real advantage. I don't think the CCHA will stay at 8 teams.

 

[Almington]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

If the difference between packing their own bags into a bus and having airline baggage handlers put it inside a plane translates to "nightmare" then I guess you have a point. Or could it be all the singling out that TSA does to UND players at the airport in Grand Forks. No doubt that team is really tired of having to go through full body scanners and being singled out for full body patdowns randomly: nightmarish.

Truth is travel to Alaska is looked at as a problem because people look at a map and think, "wow, that's a long way away." Perception. Nothing more. And there isn't a program in the WCHA that isn't fully cognizant of exactly how to make the trip to Alaska in the most efficient way possible. They've all done it plenty of times. If needed, I'm sure the helpful staffs at UAA and UAF can provide advice as to tricks of the trade and potential gotchas. We're helpful like that.

Except that air travel isn't as simple as just tossing your stuff on the bus and going. Air travel time tables are dictated by the airlines, extra trouble when it comes to bagage weight limits, the increased probability of lost bag(s), and inflexability in changing travel schedules as needed.

Air travel does take more time then road travel, that is just the nature of the air travel these days. Between security, layovers, boarding, and deplaning a trip from Minnesota to Anchorage could take 12+ hours with only ~8 hours of that actually in the air.

Yes they can. And just as Bucky has an alternative when it chooses to leave the WCHA ... UAA and UAF have alternatives (other than just being independent); none are particularly easy to make come to fruition ... yet they exist. In any case, yes ... the UAA and UAF administrations have chosen to "get along by going along" ... so far.

any any time UAA or UAF can chose to leave the WCHA or CCHA, they are free to go when-ever they want.

There is no doubt that affiliation with the WCHA (the best conference blah blah blah) is the preferred model still for UAA. The relative uncertainty of scheduling year to year is a somewhat daunting prospect for the UAA administration. However, that said ... the prospect of some breakaway group of post-BTHC WCHA schools (i.e... the BHHC) does immediately give UAA and UAF some small measure of clout with which they can and should position themselves as a primary player in such discussions. The only thing they really want is to be in the same conference. Such a small demand (especially with the prospect of increased revenues for whoever else is involved) won't likely be a show stopper for their inclusion. An eight team conference of UAA, UAF, DU, CC, UMD, SCSU, Mankato and UND isn't perhaps the WCHA but it would have some strength in relative terms to anything else that forms. There are of course many configurations with which such a group might ultimately take shape.

Once a hockey Big Ten confernce forms, it is going to be a whole new playing surface (both competitively on the ice and finacially off the ice) for the teams left in the WCHA and CCHA,. What exactly that playing field will look like is the big question, a question no one knows the answer to.


The phase-out has/is occurring thusly ... UAA pays the same amount today that it did when it joined. Has nothing to do with inflation. It's bookkeeping (it's been explained in detail to me ... however I'm not wel-versed in accounting). It goes into a WCHA pot (the word "fungible" comes to mind as applicable). MSUM, BSU and UNO take the same share out of that pot as does UofM or UW. So it's painted as a lesser subsidy (even by UAA) ... only because the existing schools got a little bit less of the largess pie. The WCHA isn't a purely capitalist model ... it's more of a mixed Socialist/Capitalist enterprise (all NCAA conferences in all sports are thus).[/QUOTE]

 

[bigmrg74]

Outside of being a "good conference citizen" and offering a homeless team a home/providing a punching bag for the conference, what's the advantage in adding the Chargers?

A golf weekend in febuary, and a school that's pretty committed to college hockey in an area of the country that could see some expansion in the future.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Once a hockey big ten confernce forms, it is going to be a whole new playing surface (both competitively on the ice and finacially off the ice) for the teams left in the wcha and ccha,. What exactly that playing field will look like is the big question, a question no one knows the answer to.

CC AD Ken Ralph was asked about the BTHC during the CC/UW broadcast and he said that the BTHC is voting next week and that it's a done deal. I'm only paraphrasing what I was told in my chatroom.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

You do realize that UAA is a voting member of the monopoly, right. and, you can quit any time you want to. why don't you start up a 3 way conference, both Alaska schools and UAH, and then you will get everything you want. have at it.

What I want is quite different from what most WCHA fans want. I want Minnesota and Wisconsin to go to the BTHC. Doesn't bother me personally in the least. I've been hoping for it. And it looks like it's going to happen if you believe Ken Ralph.

Buh Bye ... enjoy. All the best to yas. Nice knowing ya. All that ...

 

[Almington]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

CC AD Ken Ralph was asked about the BTHC during the CC/UW broadcast and he said that the BTHC is voting next week and that it's a done deal. I'm only paraphrasing what I was told in my chatroom.

What I want is quite different from what most WCHA fans want. I want Minnesota and Wisconsin to go to the BTHC. Doesn't bother me personally in the least. I've been hoping for it. And it looks like it's going to happen if you believe Ken Ralph.

Buh Bye ... enjoy. All the best to yas. Nice knowing ya. All that ...

Then welcome to a whole new world for college hockey.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Air Force would bring a very loyal following a la UND to the league

Air Force may have a loyal following, but it's scattered all over the world. I don't think it's anywhere near the class of UND. (Although Ralph Engelstadt and Curtis LeMay would have seen eye-to-eye on a lot of things!)

I think Air Force is perfectly happy being a contender in the AHA rather than fighting MTU and Bemidji for last place in the WCHA. Air Force's rink has some room for expansion (both ends currently have walkways that could be knocked down, and the side sections could be extended vertically to add another 1,500 seats or so) but I'm not sure the demand is there yet.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Well this is just my opinion but... I think even the best solution is going to be tough on someone.
Let's be clear... TV is where the money is, not ticket sales.( except UND.. maybe)
But if the BTHC can get x revenue out of college hockey tv, so can others.... If they play their cards right. The anti bthc has a chance but I don't think it's the best solution, depending on who goes with them.
I think the WCHA ought to reverse course and admit Miami and possibly ND. Then get more games with the eastern teams and use that to market the product to the TV people. This is being discussed I'm sure. There is enough cable space around that a new outlet is a possibility if done right. Part of the marketing clout that the BTHC has is a national demographic, so you'd need to include the east to some extent.

There is one other thing no one has mentioned. A month ago the University of Texas announced their own cable network. In other words, UT sports 24/7. Reason: tv money. I would bet that all the big ten schools are paying very close attention, and everyone else should be too. The money implications of this are huge and the big ten is not in a good position in this regard. So down the road further changes are likely.

The fallout IMHO: if ND and Miami move, at least three ccha programs will most likely fold, then what?

Can the WCHA survive without wisco and umtc? sure, but to be competitive for recruits they need at least one additional top team.
I think no matter what, College hockey is going to have to change and be proactive about it. I think the BTHC is bad for college hockey, but it is a fact and we have to adjust thoughtfully.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Manure,
I should have mentioned this earlier. But you can expect to see an announcement from the WCHA regarding a "WCHA Network" next season. It's been a short while since I heard about this and it wasn't quite finalized at that point. But I'm suspecting that this would be the sort of thing that the league would announce during the WCHA Final Five tournament in a couple of weeks.

Who really knows exactly what sort of schedule they'll be able to put together and what networks might carry it. Lots of questions of course. But it's been in the works most of this season.

 

[4four4]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

There is one other thing no one has mentioned. A month ago the University of Texas announced their own cable network. In other words, UT sports 24/7. Reason: tv money. I would bet that all the big ten schools are paying very close attention, and everyone else should be too. The money implications of this are huge and the big ten is not in a good position in this regard. So down the road further changes are likely.

The Big Ten does not need to worry about UT sports 24/7 because the conference already has a network and profitable network it is for their members. They will never go it alone and start up their own network.

 

[frogtown_pond]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Manure,
I should have mentioned this earlier. But you can expect to see an announcement from the WCHA regarding a "WCHA Network" next season. It's been a short while since I heard about this and it wasn't quite finalized at that point. But I'm suspecting that this would be the sort of thing that the league would announce during the WCHA Final Five tournament in a couple of weeks.

Who really knows exactly what sort of schedule they'll be able to put together and what networks might carry it. Lots of questions of course. But it's been in the works most of this season.

If this is true, Someone please tell Barry at UW. Maybe the "WCHA Network" will pay better than the Big Ten Network. The only thing driving the BTHC talk is all the so-called tv revenue!!

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Except that air travel isn't as simple as just tossing your stuff on the bus and going. Air travel time tables are dictated by the airlines, extra trouble when it comes to bagage weight limits, the increased probability of lost bag(s), and inflexability in changing travel schedules as needed.

Air travel does take more time then road travel, that is just the nature of the air travel these days. Between security, layovers, boarding, and deplaning a trip from Minnesota to Anchorage could take 12+ hours with only ~8 hours of that actually in the air.

Actually it's only 8 hours. Flights between MSP and ANC are only about 6 hours, add in prep time you're looking at no more than 10. Plus UAA has a nice working relationship with Delta Airlines (a product of almost 20 years of constant travel on their airline) that expedites baggage handling including waiving of baggage fees and weight fees or at the least reduced rates. As for inflexibility, who cares about changing schedules when all things are planned out in advance, typically 3-4 months before the season starts, the only concerns are weather or equipment related issues, no way a group 30+ will get bumped because things are overbooked, especially when the people buying the tickets buy hundreds.

Donald may be a little heavy on the capitalist conspiracy stuff but the essence of his arguement is correct, the biggest issue of the travel is perception. All that is looked at is the number of miles to travel and they freak. UAA and UAF do it multiple times a season with little issue, as do sports teams in the GNAC.

The biggest key to this, UAF may actually be looking forward to leaving the CCHA as, apparently, they are getting taken to the woodshed on airline tickets from the Michigan schools (supposedly it's around 20 each for them). They were looking to leave the last time around but the WCHA took Omaha instead.

There are two ways to make a 12 team conference with UAA and UAF work while minimizing travel. The first solution is just to use the current pod system. Basically just pair UAA and UAF and then each season two teams have to make both trips, have those two schools do that trip in back to back weekends (in similar matter that UAA does back to back road series now) in January to minimize time lost in class. It might cost a little bit extra in hotel but that can be minimized as well.

The other solution is to have each play each once home and away and do the games in Alaska in one weekend as the GNAC schools do. It allows for more non-conference games to scheduled as well. Either way, the arguements used against having UAA and UAF in the same conference are frivilous.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

The Big Ten does not need to worry about UT sports 24/7 because the conference already has a network and profitable network it is for their members. They will never go it alone and start up their own network.

Correctamundo. however... the big draws in the BTN are OSU, Michigan, PSU and to a smaller extend MSU.
so if you are OSU and you can double your revenue with your own network, you are looking at it... and you might be hogtied by the btn deal you signed.
In other words, The new WCHA network,( thanks UAA, very interesting) would have more flexibility. If you offered one HE vs WCHA game per week in an early time slot, one middle time slot, (say cc vs st cloud) and one late slot, (an alaska game) you'd get quite an audience.