WCHA armchair expansion

[darker98]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

The attractiveness of having exempt games in your pocket is directly proportional to the number of butts in the seats that your arena regularly has. After the Big Ten schools in the CCHA attendance this year was ....
Miami - 3065
Western - 2983
Notre Dame - 2667
NMU - 2541
BGSU - 2169
LSSU - 2103
Ferris - 1743
St. Larry - 1646

The math from there is 2nd grade. There really isn't enough money in exemption for pretty much any of those schools to be very interested. 2 extra games at home for Miami (@ $20 a pop) is $120,000 ... 2 extra games at St. Larry (@ $20 a pop) is just $65,840. Compare that to 2 extra games for North Dakota (@ $25 a pop) is $575,000.

Let's imagine that all things breakdown into total chaos after the BTHC forms shall we? UAA and UAF band together and go shopping for other members to form the NWHA. Here's the schools you approach first ...

UND - 11500 per game
UNO - 8049 per game
CC - 6772 per game
SCSU - 5935 per game
UMD - 5897 per game
DU - 5423 per game

Now .. onto some incentives to perhaps bundle into the sales package ...

UAA and UAF structure three tournaments each to which they invite teams who love to get the exemptions -- we know Michigan, Michigan State, BU, BC, Maine, Mass Lowell, Vermont, Mass, Yale, RPI all take the invitation to come here whenever it is offered in the past because all of those school get attendance in their home rinks from 3000 to 8000 per game meaning they ALL make between $120,000 and $320,000 for two home games (using the $20 per pop number). Naturally, there are schools other than the ones I've listed above that would say yes to a tournament invitation.

So you might have a tournament season that looked like this for example...

UAF, DU, Vermont, UAA ...
UAA, BC, UAF, SCSU ...
UAF, Maine, UAA, UND ...
UAA, Yale, UAF, UMD ...
UAF, BU, CC, UAA ...
UAA, UNO, UAF, MSU ...

That way each of the six non-Alaska conference members gets two non-conference games to help fill out their schedule. They pocket the additional two exemptions from playing against an Alaska school in Alaska. Yes, they have to take an additional trip to Alaska to play ... but it gives them a chance to play typically highly rated teams in non-conference games on a neutral rink. That's RPI/Pairwise bonus stuff there.

I deliberately left Minnesota and Wisconsin off the tournament invitee list because fans at both of those schools have convinced me that their programs will not be interested in traveling up to Alaska to make money. All the schools I did list (as well as the potential conference members I've listed) have in the past attended non-conference tournaments in Alaska in order to gain the additional exemptions in years they weren't otherwise scheduled to come here.

A 21 game schedule might be a good way to approach the thing. UAA and UAF could cluster their home schedules somehow to ease the travel of each member for example ... DU arrives in Anchorage on Thursday, plays UAA on Saturday and UAF on Monday/Tuesday. The next week CC plays UAF on Saturday then UAA on Monday/Tuesday. In both cases DU and CC would be back in school on Wednesday. UAA and UAF would likewise play three game series on their road trips. Perhaps even three different teams .. DU on Friday, CC on Saturday and UNO on Monday.

Of course, making something like that work scheduling-wise eliminates to so degree the weekend 2 game series perhaps. Maybe it works .. maybe it doesn't. Just the first thing that comes into my head when you've got 7 other teams to play against. Or maybe a team plays UAA on a Sunday/Monday then UAF on Thursday/Friday (or some other variation).

I'd tend to think that there is an attractive way to promote the concept via scheduling. Maybe those schools would be more interested in a longer conference schedule? If so, then you play 28 conference games and UAA and UAF wouldn't host 3 tournaments each.

So those seem to me to be just a few ways that you make membership attractive to schools who would all be looking for a conference should the sky fall when the BTHC forms. The primary point is that UAA and UAF have a bit more clout when they work together on such things.

Lastly, I'm not one to think that calamity will be the result of BTHC formation. But if it did, UAA and UAF could help build a fairly strong conference out of the ashes.

The WCHA is not going to be in that tough of a place as you think. If Anchorage makes a move like that. Do you honestly think the WCHA is going to lay down?

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

I do not see this working.

I could, there'd be plenty of teams willing to do it on both terms I bet. You'd think schools like Michigan or BC would give up two free home games if they had to schedule DU or St. Cloud or North Dakota as well? I'd doubt it.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

The WCHA is not going to be in that tough of a place as you think. If Anchorage makes a move like that. Do you honestly think the WCHA is going to lay down?

I believe that was stated, he was talking hypothetically, like the rest of us.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

The WCHA is not going to be in that tough of a place as you think. If Anchorage makes a move like that. Do you honestly think the WCHA is going to lay down?

What part of ...

Let's imagine that all things breakdown into total chaos after the BTHC forms shall we?

...didn't you read?

That preamble explains that everything after it is supposition.

And then I finished with ...

Lastly, I'm not one to think that calamity will be the result of BTHC formation.

Maybe if you hadn't so excitedly pressed the full quote button and had actually read what was written in context you wouldn't look like a complete nob right now. Maybe not though. It's tough for me to decide. Your response though was actually more informative than your previous one to Jim where you offered nothing more than you not thinking what he said would work. Hopefully, you continue to progress in a positive direction and actually say something other people might be interested in reading. I'm not betting on it though.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

I read none of it A hole

At least you're honest.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

I read none of it A hole

You reading none of it and then responding to it makes me an A hole. Duly noted.

Now run along and talk more with Brent about booze and hugging other men.

 

[darker98]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

What part of ...

...didn't you read?

That preamble explains that everything after it is supposition.

And then I finished with ...


Maybe if you hadn't so excitedly pressed the full quote button and had actually read what was written in context you wouldn't look like a complete nob right now. Maybe not though. It's tough for me to decide. Your response though was actually more informative than your previous one to Jim where you offered nothing more than you not thinking what he said would work. Hopefully, you continue to progress in a positive direction and actually say something other people might be interested in reading. I'm not betting on it though.

Sorry, I didn't know I couldn't disagree with a hypothetical situation. I will no longer have an opinion.

 

[Almington]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Sorry, I didn't know I couldn't disagree with a hypothetical situation. I will no longer have an opinion.

You are allowed to disagree, but you need to do so in a respectful and constructive way to actually have a worthwhile discussion about the topic. That STARTS with actually reading what the other person has written and then responding to their ideas and not with a personal attack.

While I understand the advantages of the exemption, I don't think that it is anywhere near as valuable to the teams that get it as people are saying. Very few schools can convert the exemption into additional home games every year. Most schools will either end up scheduling a home-home series with another team. Ask some of the non-ivy ECAC teams how easy it is to fill 12 NC games every season given how few NC game teams from other conferences have. Separating the exemptions between two conferences equalized the number of NC games and makes those games easier to fill for all the teams concerned.

 

[moose97]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

While I understand the advantages of the exemption, I don't think that it is anywhere near as valuable to the teams that get it as people are saying. Very few schools can convert the exemption into additional home games every year. Most schools will either end up scheduling a home-home series with another team.

A worthwhile discussion. Of the WCHA schools that went to Alaska: UNO had 2 home and 2 road OOC series. MSU had 3 home and 2 road. CC, who went to Alaska twce ended up with 5 home OOC games and 3 road. DU had 3 home series and 1 road. SCSU had only 2 home series and 3 away. Wisconsin had 4 home series and 1 away (and that was the exempt Icebreaker). Tech had 3 home games and 5 road games. Some are doing a better job taking advantage (not surprising, the schools with bigger rinks) than others.

Ask some of the non-ivy ECAC teams how easy it is to fill 12 NC games every season given how few NC game teams from other conferences have. Separating the exemptions between two conferences equalized the number of NC games and makes those games easier to fill for all the teams concerned.

With the assumption that the WCHA and CCHA would move to fewer games in a BTHC world, this is less of an issue, IMHO. There may be pressure in the future (external or internal) for HEA and AHA to adopt a conference schedule with less games at some point if this happens too...

 

[darker98]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

You are allowed to disagree, but you need to do so in a respectful and constructive way to actually have a worthwhile discussion about the topic. That STARTS with actually reading what the other person has written and then responding to their ideas and not with a personal attack.

Yeah, I apologized. Don't know why I was so testy.

 

[ts8801]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Let's imagine that all things breakdown into total chaos after the BTHC forms shall we? UAA and UAF band together and go shopping for other members to form the NWHA. Here's the schools you approach first ...

UND - 11500 per game
UNO - 8049 per game
CC - 6772 per game
SCSU - 5935 per game
UMD - 5897 per game
DU - 5423 per game

How is that the NWHA? 7 WHCA teams and UAF? The only way something like this would happen is if MTU and UAF swap, which I do not think if very likely.

 

[Squarebanks]

Your AD has been quoted in print, pre-Blais, saying almost exactly what I said.

This is totally untrue.

UNO wanted into the WCHA from the get-go in 1997. They tried, too.

The WCHA wanted us and they wanted us to wait two full seasons for full membership! UNO got huffy and said, fine, we'll take our 6,389 season ticket holders and sellouts, so far, of every game we have played so far in our (then) 8,314 seat arena and go to the CCHA, who will admit us right away, and, that's what they did. This was a "we're trying to establish our program" decision more than anything else, and, a little bit of ego. I don't know where you got the notion that you did that this had anything to with UNO wanting to be in the CCHA because of it's ties to big football schools. That's just utter nonsense and doesn't make an iota of sense, anyway.There is no way UNO could benefit from it even if it WERE true. What does Nebraska being a "football heavy state" have to do with this on any level? UNO plays Division 2 football.

 

[moose97]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

This is totally untrue.

UNO wanted into the WCHA from the get-go in 1997. They tried, too.

The WCHA wanted us and they wanted us to wait two full seasons for full membership! UNO got huffy and said, fine, we'll take our 6,389 season ticket holders and sellouts, so far, of every game we have played so far in our (then) 8,314 seat arena and go to the CCHA, who will admit us right away, and, that's what they did. This was a "we're trying to establish our program" decision more than anything else, and, a little bit of ego. I don't know where you got the notion that you did that this had anything to with UNO wanting to be in the CCHA because of it's ties to big football schools. That's just utter nonsense and doesn't make an iota of sense, anyway.There is no way UNO could benefit from it even if it WERE true. What does Nebraska being a "football heavy state" have to do with this on any level? UNO plays Division 2 football.

Your AD has been quoted in print, pre-Blais, saying almost exactly what I said.

Make that former coach Mike Kemp:

http://westerncollegehockey.blogspot.com/2009/01/uno-isnt-moving.html

Anyway, Kemp said that Nebraska-Omaha had been approached by the WCHA about the possibility of applying to join the conference, but made it pretty clear that UNO had no interest in switching conferences.

One of the big reasons why is that even though the WCHA may have more traditional hockey powers, Nebraska is football territory and names like Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, and Ohio State are going to resonate more with local fans than a school like Denver or North Dakota. Even MAC schools like Western Michigan, Miami, and Bowling Green carry more cachet than some of the D-II football schools in Minnesota.

 

[Squarebanks]

Posting from my iPhone so I can't multi-quote but I hadn't taken in WCHA revenue sharing into account, so that might be a dealbreaker. I do think UAA would be more competitive in the CCHA, but you're right, it probably comes down to $$$ saved or not saved.

I know it was an outrageous number for you guys, like I said the Michigan schools are taking you to the woodshed.


I'd agree with that. I think a lot of it has to do with the regionalization that dominates college hockey still. Oh it's gotten better in the years but any team outside of Minnesota, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, New York, or New England is constantly whined about in one respect or another. It's one of things that, to me, inhibits expansion as well.


Now that's a tough call, mostly because of the potential revenue we'd be giving up. I think it depend on making a good projection on what would happen. How is the WCHA tournament gonna be affected? (This is a big moneymaker for every WCHA team right now, obviously losing Wisconsin and Minnesota is going to have an effect on it but how much?) Would recruiting be affected? (Probably not but you don't know for sure) Would UAA be more competitive and have a better record? (This alone could have a huge financial impact, Anchorage is a notorious fairweather town) How much would UAA save from buying tickets compared to the money lost from leaving the WCHA would be a huge question.

Looking at it I'm 50/50 either way. I'd have to know the details to make a choice.

 

[Squarebanks]

Make that former coach Mike Kemp:

http://westerncollegehockey.blogspot.com/2009/01/uno-isnt-moving.html

I stand corrected, I thought I remembered that info coming from the AD in Omaha.

 

[Squarebanks]

Interesting ideas. The one thing I would wonder about, though, is weeknight games. Granted it is possible to a two week roadie (since A and F each do it twice a year), but there would be some epic complaining from some of the bigger schools about spending two weeks straight in Alaska.

But, as you said in so many words below, money talks. And where there is a will there might be a way.

The attractiveness of having exempt games in your pocket is directly proportional to the number of butts in the seats that your arena regularly has. After the Big Ten schools in the CCHA attendance this year was ....
Miami - 3065
Western - 2983
Notre Dame - 2667
NMU - 2541
BGSU - 2169
LSSU - 2103
Ferris - 1743
St. Larry - 1646

The math from there is 2nd grade. There really isn't enough money in exemption for pretty much any of those schools to be very interested. 2 extra games at home for Miami (@ $20 a pop) is $120,000 ... 2 extra games at St. Larry (@ $20 a pop) is just $65,840. Compare that to 2 extra games for North Dakota (@ $25 a pop) is $575,000.

Let's imagine that all things breakdown into total chaos after the BTHC forms shall we? UAA and UAF band together and go shopping for other members to form the NWHA. Here's the schools you approach first ...

UND - 11500 per game
UNO - 8049 per game
CC - 6772 per game
SCSU - 5935 per game
UMD - 5897 per game
DU - 5423 per game

Now .. onto some incentives to perhaps bundle into the sales package ...

UAA and UAF structure three tournaments each to which they invite teams who love to get the exemptions -- we know Michigan, Michigan State, BU, BC, Maine, Mass Lowell, Vermont, Mass, Yale, RPI all take the invitation to come here whenever it is offered in the past because all of those school get attendance in their home rinks from 3000 to 8000 per game meaning they ALL make between $120,000 and $320,000 for two home games (using the $20 per pop number). Naturally, there are schools other than the ones I've listed above that would say yes to a tournament invitation.

So you might have a tournament season that looked like this for example...

UAF, DU, Vermont, UAA ...
UAA, BC, UAF, SCSU ...
UAF, Maine, UAA, UND ...
UAA, Yale, UAF, UMD ...
UAF, BU, CC, UAA ...
UAA, UNO, UAF, MSU ...

That way each of the six non-Alaska conference members gets two non-conference games to help fill out their schedule. They pocket the additional two exemptions from playing against an Alaska school in Alaska. Yes, they have to take an additional trip to Alaska to play ... but it gives them a chance to play typically highly rated teams in non-conference games on a neutral rink. That's RPI/Pairwise bonus stuff there.

I deliberately left Minnesota and Wisconsin off the tournament invitee list because fans at both of those schools have convinced me that their programs will not be interested in traveling up to Alaska to make money. All the schools I did list (as well as the potential conference members I've listed) have in the past attended non-conference tournaments in Alaska in order to gain the additional exemptions in years they weren't otherwise scheduled to come here.

A 21 game schedule might be a good way to approach the thing. UAA and UAF could cluster their home schedules somehow to ease the travel of each member for example ... DU arrives in Anchorage on Thursday, plays UAA on Saturday and UAF on Monday/Tuesday. The next week CC plays UAF on Saturday then UAA on Monday/Tuesday. In both cases DU and CC would be back in school on Wednesday. UAA and UAF would likewise play three game series on their road trips. Perhaps even three different teams .. DU on Friday, CC on Saturday and UNO on Monday.

Of course, making something like that work scheduling-wise eliminates to so degree the weekend 2 game series perhaps. Maybe it works .. maybe it doesn't. Just the first thing that comes into my head when you've got 7 other teams to play against. Or maybe a team plays UAA on a Sunday/Monday then UAF on Thursday/Friday (or some other variation).

I'd tend to think that there is an attractive way to promote the concept via scheduling. Maybe those schools would be more interested in a longer conference schedule? If so, then you play 28 conference games and UAA and UAF wouldn't host 3 tournaments each.

So those seem to me to be just a few ways that you make membership attractive to schools who would all be looking for a conference should the sky fall when the BTHC forms. The primary point is that UAA and UAF have a bit more clout when they work together on such things.

Lastly, I'm not one to think that calamity will be the result of BTHC formation. But if it did, UAA and UAF could help build a fairly strong conference out of the ashes.

 

[moose97]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

This is totally untrue.

UNO wanted into the WCHA from the get-go in 1997. They tried, too.

The WCHA wanted us and they wanted us to wait two full seasons for full membership! UNO got huffy and said, fine, we'll take our 6,389 season ticket holders and sellouts, so far, of every game we have played so far in our (then) 8,314 seat arena and go to the CCHA, who will admit us right away, and, that's what they did. This was a "we're trying to establish our program" decision more than anything else, and, a little bit of ego. I don't know where you got the notion that you did that this had anything to with UNO wanting to be in the CCHA because of it's ties to big football schools. That's just utter nonsense and doesn't make an iota of sense, anyway.There is no way UNO could benefit from it even if it WERE true. What does Nebraska being a "football heavy state" have to do with this on any level? UNO plays Division 2 football.

I stand corrected, I thought I remembered that info coming from the AD in Omaha.

Technically, you are both correct. Red Cow remembers the first part (late '90's) correctly, but the "CCHA or WCHA" drama I can see a BSU guy paying more attention to than even a UNO guy. I mean, if the coach and AD of my school all said, "no way," I'd kind of forget about it. BSU fans (and also UAF fans since that whole Forrest Karr article about wanting to move popped up) were glued to the internets all of the summer of '09 combing for info, so it really shouldn't be surprising that a UNO fan missed it.

 

[4four4]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Your AD has been quoted in print, pre-Blais, saying almost exactly what I said.

Alberts never said that. In fact I don't remember the AD before Trev Alberts saying it either.

 

[moose97]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

Alberts never said that. In fact I don't remember the AD before Trev Alberts saying it either.

Did you miss this exchange?:

Make that former coach Mike Kemp:

http://westerncollegehockey.blogspot.com/2009/01/uno-isnt-moving.html

Anyway, Kemp said that Nebraska-Omaha had been approached by the WCHA about the possibility of applying to join the conference, but made it pretty clear that UNO had no interest in switching conferences.

One of the big reasons why is that even though the WCHA may have more traditional hockey powers, Nebraska is football territory and names like Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, and Ohio State are going to resonate more with local fans than a school like Denver or North Dakota. Even MAC schools like Western Michigan, Miami, and Bowling Green carry more cachet than some of the D-II football schools in Minnesota.

I stand corrected, I thought I remembered that info coming from the AD in Omaha.

Pretty cut and dry, no? And SB admits he mis-remembered the source 40 minutes before your post...

 

[Wreckincrew]

Re: WCHA armchair expansion

A worthwhile discussion. Of the WCHA schools that went to Alaska: UNO had 2 home and 2 road OOC series. MSU had 3 home and 2 road. CC, who went to Alaska twce ended up with 5 home OOC games and 3 road. DU had 3 home series and 1 road. SCSU had only 2 home series and 3 away. Wisconsin had 4 home series and 1 away (and that was the exempt Icebreaker). Tech had 3 home games and 5 road games. Some are doing a better job taking advantage (not surprising, the schools with bigger rinks) than others.



With the assumption that the WCHA and CCHA would move to fewer games in a BTHC world, this is less of an issue, IMHO. There may be pressure in the future (external or internal) for HEA and AHA to adopt a conference schedule with less games at some point if this happens too...

Also, UND played at both Alaska teams in the Kendell Hockey Classic.
OOC = 2 @ Maine, host Notre Dame twice, 1 @ UMD (to open Amsoil), host Robert Morris twice for a grand total of 4 home & 3 away.