WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

Bemidji State, Bowling Green, Michigan Tech, Minnesota State and Northern Michigan (minus two non-conference games?) have released their complete schedules. All others are what I have gathered from other sources and speculation due to who owes games.

ALABAMA-HUNTSVILLE (0-0-0)
-Mass-Lowell (2) 10/9-10/10
-Nebraska-Omaha (2) 10/16-10/17
-To Be Determined ??
-To Be Determined ??


ALASKA (0-0-0)
-at Nebraska-Omaha (2) 10/9-10/10
-at Minnesota-Duluth (2) 11/27-11/28
-at Arizona State (2) TBD


ALASKA-ANCHORAGE (0-0-0)
-at Clarkson (2) TBD
-at Denver (2) 1/1-1/2
-Arizona State (2) TBD ??


BEMIDJI STATE (0-0-0)
-at Minnesota 10/03
-North Dakota 10/9
-at North Dakota 10/10
-St. Cloud State 11/20
-at St. Cloud State 11/21
-at Merrimack 11/27
-at Mass-Lowell 11/28
-US National Development Program (EXH) 12/28
-Minnesota-Duluth 12/31
-at Minnesota Duluth 1/2


BOWLING GREEN (0-0-0)
-at St. Lawrence (2) 10/09-10/10
-at Western Michigan 10/16
-Western Michigan 10/17
-Miami 10/23
-at Miami 10/24
-RIT 12/31
-vs RIT (Toledo Winterfest) 01/02


FERRIS STATE (0-0-0)
-Michigan State TBD
-at Michigan State TBD
-Western Michigan TBD
-at Western Michigan TBD
-Canisius (2) TBD
-at Robert Morris TBD
-Robert Morris TBD


LAKE SUPERIOR STATE (0-0-0)
-at Union (2) TBD
-Notre Dame TBD
-To Be Determined ??
-To Be Determined ??


MICHIGAN TECH (0-0-0)
-Michigan (2) 10/09-10/10
-at Clarkson (2) 10/30-10/31
-Great Lakes Invitational vs Michigan State (Detroit, MI)
-Great Lakes Invitational vs Michigan/Harvard (Detroit, MI)
-Arizona State (2) 02/12-02/13


MINNESOTA STATE (0-0-0)
-To Be Determined (EXH)
-vs Providence (Duluth, MN) 10/9
-vs Minnesota/Minnesota-Duluth (Duluth, MN) 10/10
-at St. Cloud State (2) 10/16-10/17
-Minnesota Duluth (2) 10/30-10/31


NORTHERN MICHIGAN (0-0-0)
-To Be Determined ??
-Boston University (2) 10/16-10/17
-Colgate (2) 11/27-11/28
-at North Dakota 01/02-01/03

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

Given our losses to graduation/pros, our schedule seems a bit aggressive. But, aim high, right?


Penn State and ASU have shown you can make the tourney by loading up on AH, and going .500 the rest of the year. But i'm not eager to follow that route.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

Given our losses to graduation/pros, our schedule seems a bit aggressive. But, aim high, right?


Penn State and ASU have shown you can make the tourney by loading up on AH, and going .500 the rest of the year. But i'm not eager to follow that route.

I thought a team made the tourney by PWR rating, am I missing something?

 

[Lost_Husky]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I thought a team made the tourney by PWR rating, am I missing something?

I believe the feeling is that ASU and PSU are "gaming" the system. While it is perfectly legal it makes schools that challenge themselves in the NC rather upset.

Is it a flaw in PWR? Yes. What does it say about the Athletic Department that targets this kind of schedule?

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I believe the feeling is that ASU and PSU are "gaming" the system. While it is perfectly legal it makes schools that challenge themselves in the NC rather upset.

Is it a flaw in PWR? Yes. What does it say about the Athletic Department that targets this kind of schedule?

ASU was in position to make the tournament last year, while going 4-4 against the WCHA, generally regarded as the 5th toughest conference in college hockey. ASU's schedule included 4 home games and 4 road games, against teams that finished 1st, 4th, 6th, and 8th in the WCHA. In other words, a pretty representative sampling of the WCHA, and ASU results were pretty average. Yet no middle of the pack WCHA teams were in a position to make the field. ASU was in the top 15 in the Pairwise by beating up on AH, going 9-1. If I'm a bubble team in the NCHC or HE, I have to look at that and think, is this really the best way to determine the tournament field?
Hey, those are the rules, and that's how the Pairwise works, but I don't know how fair it is to the kids, the fans, and the other teams in college hockey.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I believe the feeling is that ASU and PSU are "gaming" the system. While it is perfectly legal it makes schools that challenge themselves in the NC rather upset.

Is it a flaw in PWR? Yes. What does it say about the Athletic Department that targets this kind of schedule?

So if AH is that terrible of a conference then it would affect the PWR wouldn't it? Because most of the teams in WCHA were below ASU's PWR should they not have scheduled them in advance of not knowing what their PWR would be?

Could it maybe say that because ASU is not in a conference and that it appears many teams are adverse to traveling as evidenced by the demand of WCHA for ASU to pay a subsidy for teams to travel to a resort area, that the the Athletic Dept. has to schedule what they can get at this point? That it works out easier to schedule odd number of team conferences? So I say it doesn't say anything negative about the Athletic Dept.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

ASU was in position to make the tournament last year, while going 4-4 against the WCHA, generally regarded as the 5th toughest conference in college hockey. ASU's schedule included 4 home games and 4 road games, against teams that finished 1st, 4th, 6th, and 8th in the WCHA. In other words, a pretty representative sampling of the WCHA, and ASU results were pretty average. Yet no middle of the pack WCHA teams were in a position to make the field. ASU was in the top 15 in the Pairwise by beating up on AH, going 9-1. If I'm a bubble team in the NCHC or HE, I have to look at that and think, is this really the best way to determine the tournament field?
Hey, those are the rules, and that's how the Pairwise works, but I don't know how fair it is to the kids, the fans, and the other teams in college hockey.

I understand what you are saying. However I struggle with the statements of AH & WCHA teams being all that bad that it helps ASU PWR since they aren't playing "tough" teams. I must be missing something here.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I checked on PSU and they were 6-0 vs AH and 1-1 vs the WCHA. ( a split at home with Alaska)They played very few games vs HE, and did have some quality wins vs other Big teams especially early in the year vs Minnesota. The power is what it is but I think Kratch is a better metric overall. I'd like to see the power be tweaked to be less easily gamed but I doubt it will be changed. You have to wonder how much the schedule, which had like the first 12 straight at home for them, mattered.
I have to say i'm pretty surprised Tech is playing ASU this coming year after what happened.
Honestly, at this point, I very much doubt the schedule goes as planned.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I understand what you are saying. However I struggle with the statements of AH & WCHA teams being all that bad that it helps ASU PWR since they aren't playing "tough" teams. I must be missing something here.

What you're missing is how the math works on a loss. You look good with all the wins against "lesser" teams, however, take your RMU series for example. ASU won both of those games by one goal. Were either of those games to simply end in a tie, ASU is out of the top 16 PWR and out of the NCAAs. You're walking a VERY fine line between success and failure, but so far it's working out well. Now no one is saying ASU is no good and isn't deserving (at least that's not how I'm reading it). It's simply saying that if ASU were in a league like the NCHC or WCHA...well...no soup for you.

 

[purpleinnebraska]

I understand what you are saying. However I struggle with the statements of AH & WCHA teams being all that bad that it helps ASU PWR since they aren't playing "tough" teams. I must be missing something here.

I’m not saying they’re playing tough teams. Just the opposite. I’m saying if you roll up a high winning percentage, it doesn’t much matter who you play. That’s the flaw in the system.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I’m not saying they’re playing tough teams. Just the opposite. I’m saying if you roll up a high winning percentage, it doesn’t much matter who you play. That’s the flaw in the system.

but if you fall flat in those games too many times, you're in big trouble.

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

but if you fall flat in those games too many times, you're in big trouble.

True, but what's more likely - Dropping a game to a Bentley, or getting swept by a NoDak? The downside risk is pretty small, as Penn State's 6-0 AH record and ASU's 9-1 AH record last year would indicate. There is no credit given in the Pairwise for losing to really good teams, and there's no penalty for beating bad teams.
I'm not saying teams should set up their schedules that way. As a fan, I want to see us play UMD, SCSU, Gophs, etc., but I am saying the system unfairly rewards teams for scheduling teams that are traditionally weaker. Especially when you're an independent. WCHA teams only get 6-8 nonconference games, and since we want to see traditional rivalries, we're limited in the amount of "should win" games we can schedule. But ASU can set up a schedule of 20 games or more against teams that usually finish in the bottom third of the Pairwise, and never have to worry about getting upset in a conference tournament.
Again, the rules are the rules (Maybe bringing back the TUC might help), but I just don't think this is a good way to determine the at large bids to the tournament.

 

[Lost_Husky]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

So if AH is that terrible of a conference then it would affect the PWR wouldn't it? Because most of the teams in WCHA were below ASU's PWR should they not have scheduled them in advance of not knowing what their PWR would be?

Could it maybe say that because ASU is not in a conference and that it appears many teams are adverse to traveling as evidenced by the demand of WCHA for ASU to pay a subsidy for teams to travel to a resort area, that the the Athletic Dept. has to schedule what they can get at this point? That it works out easier to schedule odd number of team conferences? So I say it doesn't say anything negative about the Athletic Dept.

You have been around this forum enough to know that travel fee is part of the mid-west WCHA school's thing. (Ask the UAX schools about that sometime.)

I'm not saying ASU is terrible. (I'm not a fan of some of their players and coaches.) They are a non-conference school that has to take games when they can get them. They are benefiting from a formula boost in PWR that is making them rank better than their on ice product.

 

[MavHockey14]

Given our losses to graduation/pros, our schedule seems a bit aggressive. But, aim high, right?


Penn State and ASU have shown you can make the tourney by loading up on AH, and going .500 the rest of the year. But i'm not eager to follow that route.

MSU wants to be an NCHC school — schedule the non conference in a way that shows a commitment to a high level of hockey. Simple.

Additionally, while next season’s squad won’t be as good as this season’s arguable best in school history, Hastings and co. have recruited at a very high level consistently, and are much more a reload than a rebuild program at this point.

 

[bravohankins]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

They are benefiting from a formula boost in PWR that is making them rank better than their on ice product.

I'm a BG alum and live in PHX. I used to play men's league at Oceanside for years and years. I am very familiar with BG/CCHA/WCHA and ASU's program going all the way back to the early ACHA club days. I have seen them play numerous times the last few years, as well as attended numerous BG games, as my parents still live in the Toledo area.

ASU is on the same level as BG, Tech, NMU, BSU talent wise. They have made, or would have made the tourney the last two years, while the mentioned WCHA programs have been on the outside looking in and in general not really all that close to say the 14th spot. I know BSU was in the mix this year, but they were one more loss from being outside the bubble.

So has ASU used their INDY status to their benefit.....I would say yes. Are they "gaming the system"....not sure I would say that.

Look Oceanside is a dump, they've tried to polish it up, but a t*urd is still a t*urd. It's hard to get teams to come out here and play in that hole, much less good teams. They have scheduled the teams that would play them here and have tried to have some decent road series as well....

Now if once they get the new facility up they are still loading up on AH schools.....I would say then, yes they are gaming it.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I checked on PSU and they were 6-0 vs AH and 1-1 vs the WCHA. ( a split at home with Alaska)They played very few games vs HE, and did have some quality wins vs other Big teams especially early in the year vs Minnesota. The power is what it is but I think Kratch is a better metric overall. I'd like to see the power be tweaked to be less easily gamed but I doubt it will be changed. You have to wonder how much the schedule, which had like the first 12 straight at home for them, mattered.
I have to say i'm pretty surprised Tech is playing ASU this coming year after what happened.
Honestly, at this point, I very much doubt the schedule goes as planned.

I am not following you. I thought ASU treated Tech nicely & respectfully at Oceanside this past year. Of course there are always a few jerks in any fan base but I don't think that's a reason not to play each other.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I am not following you. I thought ASU treated Tech nicely & respectfully at Oceanside this past year. Of course there are always a few jerks in any fan base but I don't think that's a reason not to play each other.

I would assume its about the last time ASU came to Houghton.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

What you're missing is how the math works on a loss. You look good with all the wins against "lesser" teams, however, take your RMU series for example. ASU won both of those games by one goal. Were either of those games to simply end in a tie, ASU is out of the top 16 PWR and out of the NCAAs. You're walking a VERY fine line between success and failure, but so far it's working out well. Now no one is saying ASU is no good and isn't deserving (at least that's not how I'm reading it). It's simply saying that if ASU were in a league like the NCHC or WCHA...well...no soup for you.

I suspect you are right. ASU did not have as hard of a schedule as maybe they should/could have. But who would have thought Wisky would have fallen off the map? Scheduling up front does not always translate to the reality down the road.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

I would assume its about the last time ASU came to Houghton.

That makes more sense. Hopefully that crap doesn't happen again.

 

[Sol Diablo]

Re: WCHA 2020-21: We Can Do Better than Two Bids and Eight Teams Exiting

You have been around this forum enough to know that travel fee is part of the mid-west WCHA school's thing. (Ask the UAX schools about that sometime.)

I'm not saying ASU is terrible. (I'm not a fan of some of their players and coaches.) They are a non-conference school that has to take games when they can get them. They are benefiting from a formula boost in PWR that is making them rank better than their on ice product.

I have to admit, it took a lot of balls to ask for a travel subsidy to go to a resort area. Do you think the Mexican and Caribbean resort areas pay Canadians to travel down there during the winter But no harm, no foul for asking. I think your accusations against the ASU Athletics Dept. should be taken to NCAA, lets see how they rule. Otherwise I will respectfully disregard your opinion in this matter as B.S. and I will agree to disagree. However I will respect your opinion in other matters as long as they are backed up by proof.