UW-Stout offseason thread

[d3follower]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

While it is true, that 'felony murder' can be when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony, but battery in and of itself need not be felony, it can be a misdemeanor, intent is usually key to being elevated to a felony.

Norm - A battery is almost always a felony in Wisconsin. There's only one misdemeanor classification for a battery in Wisconsin and that's when the bodily harm is not substantial. Wisconsin classifies other batteries as felonies, making distinctions by class of felony but they are all felonies. What elevates a battery to felony status is not intent but rather the extent of the bodily injury.

As to "intent," in the case of something like a battery the bar is set very low in terms of proof so most batteries will fall into the intentional category -- all it takes is a showing that harm was intended or would likely to result from the defendant's actions. When you push someone riding a bike from behind, you likely intend to harm him (or should have known that harm would likely result) even if you did not intend to kill him.

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Can someone explain why a charge of felony murder doesn't seem to carry a high bail requirement? Nowhere have I read of the bail requirement, yet the suspects have been granted permission to relocate to Minneapolis? Let me see....wouldn't they be a danger to flee, seeing that both are non-Wisconsin residents?

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Can someone explain why a charge of felony murder doesn't seem to carry a high bail requirement? Nowhere have I read of the bail requirement, yet the suspects have been granted permission to relocate to Minneapolis? Let me see....wouldn't they be a danger to flee, seeing that both are non-Wisconsin residents?

Danger to flee, as potential felony murderers, what about a threat to the general public

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

OK - as a lawyer (not criminal, but still had to learn it to pass the bar) the legal analysis on this forum is not very good. I would not even attempt to comment on the situation without a lot more facts (And just because the DA made an initial charge, does not mean that will be the charge that goes to trial).

+1

 

[d3follower]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Can someone explain why a charge of felony murder doesn't seem to carry a high bail requirement? Nowhere have I read of the bail requirement, yet the suspects have been granted permission to relocate to Minneapolis? Let me see....wouldn't they be a danger to flee, seeing that both are non-Wisconsin residents?

Under Wisconsin law, felony murder is not a truly independent crime. By statute, a felony murder charge means that up to 15 years can be automatically tacked onto the sentence for a conviction for the underlying felony. So essentially, the trial would be about the battery and what the sentence should be for that crime and then additional time would be added to that sentence for the fact that a death ended up occurring as a result of the felony. In other words, they are not being charged with an intentional murder so, in certain respects, the charge is more like a manslaughter charge and therefore a lower bail requirement would apply. At least that is my guess as to why the bail amount was modest ($10K cash).

 

[gojackets]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Based on the description of the injuries incurred and the alleged cause of those injuries, it leads me to think that there is more to the story. How fast could that bike have been going if two guys were able to chase it down? And if they were able to chase it down at a low rate of speed how does one explain the severity of those injuries? I believe there is more to the story. Based on what I have been reading, there were not witnesses to the alleged event and the story of what happened has be supplied by the accused parties. That doesn't change the result, but it could explain what really happened and change the opinions of those following the future of the program.

I was thinking about this earlier. Traumatic brain damage doesn't happen with a little shove and falling head first into pavement. It would have had to been a pretty significant force pushing the victim into the ground. I believe the one article said that there were several hockey players that would have had a view of the incident as well as the bouncer seeing some of it.

Also detrimental to the boys I'd think would be that the victim was doing the right thing by leaving the situation and the attackers pursued him outside the bar.

 

[XYZ]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Isn't that all anyone ever does on this board? Speculation?

Ha, nothing wrong with speculating on the future based on the past and present, but the premise one does it on is paramount.

 

[one_to7]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_16194601?nclick_check=1

Kuehn told authorities he removed a hockey player, who later was identified as McGlasson, from the tavern, then went to find Simon to have him to stay in the bar for at least five minutes. Bouncers use the strategy so someone kicked out of the bar likely will leave the area and the fight does not continue outside. Kuehn said he could not locate Simon.

Kuehn then went back to the front door and saw five or six UW-Stout hockey players standing on the sidewalk between the Log Jam and another building. He also saw five or six more hockey players standing in the back parking lot and a couple of other players in an alley near the Log Jam.

Zachary Stowell told police Simon was worried about being attacked if he left the bar, so Stowell assisted Simon out the rear of the bar hoping Simon could sneak away.

Britton said McGlasson pushed Simon and Simon lost control of the bike.

McGlasson denied chasing Simon on the bicycle.

 

[MW4Bucky&SNC]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

M4W: considering we don't know everything, who's to say Britton didn't push him out of the way first? Or bump into each other? Or who knows what? Someone says something and they deserve to get several people chasing them trying to kick their ***? Give me an effing break.

What are you talking about? Here is exactly what I said. "Not blaming the victim because he clearly didn't deserve this fate, but why did the young man have to lip off? Nothing to be gained and quite obviously a ton to lose."

Two key points. 1) The bolded portion goes directly against your 2nd from last sentence. 2) You are right in saying we don't know exactly what may have happened before his comment. Regardless, while a person can't control what is said or done to them they do have a chance to decide how they are going to react. As a runner if I choose to run at midnight on a busy street in dark gear I don't deserve to be run over by a drunk driver but I didn't put myself in the best situation for the part I can control. It doesn't mean I can't get run over at noon on a side street, but I'd say I have a better shot of staying safe with that choice.

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Different and unrelated circumstances, but another tragic RIP story here.

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Different and unrelated circumstances, but another tragic RIP story here.

So this is the thread to post all "tragic RIP" stories?

Here's another one.

...and another.

...and, while we're at it, might as well post this too. Not an "RIP" story, but tragic nonetheless.

 

[play by play]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I'm really saddened by what I've read about this. The whole thing stinks.

My two cents:

Two players went over the line and should serve jail time for unforgivable behavior

If other players were "waiting outside" then they were contributing to the "gang mentality" thus the University should step in and cancel their season.

Hockey Seasons are not more important that the death of a human being...ever

 

[thebrain]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

The bouncer stated there were 5-6 hockey players in the back and more up front. It sounded to me like most of the team was at the bar. Does 8-10 or 15 hockey players all at the bar sound like a team function?

 

[BlueDevilAdvocate]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Lets get some facts out here. Being a Stout student I have the ability to do my own investigation and I can skip all of your bogus speculations. Instead of taking the time of 30 seconds to think my post through, like some of you on here, I took the time to ask questions and get some truths into the light.

First let me say, in Wisconsin, Riding a bicycle can still result in an OWI (Operating While Intoxicated). The consequences of an OWI are similar to a DUI; Time in jail, loss of license, fines, and AA classes.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/docs/owi-penchrt.pdf

(5) "Bicycle" means every vehicle propelled by the feet acting upon pedals and having wheels any 2 of which are not less than 14 inches in diameter.

Definition taken from:
http://www.1800dialdui.com/CM/DUIDWILaws/DUIDWILaws-Wisconsin-OWI-DWI-DUI-Laws.asp

So why was he on his bike?! That is the question on everyone's mind. You guys can dig on the web for that one. I've done enough.

Second, after talking with bouncers at The Log Jam, is seems that Mr. Simon was kicked out of the bar the week prior for the same problem. He has a prior reputation of confrontation at local bars. Now this is not to rip on him, this is to set the record straight and bring your speculations to a close with FACTS.

Third, and lastly, BlueDevilRadio is unable to comment on the USCHO.com forums due to his position at the University of Wisconsin - Stout, and due to the on-going investigation and likely trial that will follow. That being said: the comment stated earlier in the forum still stands.

 

[walktheline]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Lets get some facts out here. Being a Stout student I have the ability to do my own investigation and I can skip all of your bogus speculations. Instead of taking the time of 30 seconds to think my post through, like some of you on here, I took the time to ask questions and get some truths into the light.

First let me say, in Wisconsin, Riding a bicycle can still result in an OWI (Operating While Intoxicated). The consequences of an OWI are similar to a DUI; Time in jail, loss of license, fines, and AA classes.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/docs/owi-penchrt.pdf

(5) "Bicycle" means every vehicle propelled by the feet acting upon pedals and having wheels any 2 of which are not less than 14 inches in diameter.

Definition taken from:
http://www.1800dialdui.com/CM/DUIDWILaws/DUIDWILaws-Wisconsin-OWI-DWI-DUI-Laws.asp

So why was he on his bike?! That is the question on everyone's mind. You guys can dig on the web for that one. I've done enough.

Second, after talking with bouncers at The Log Jam, is seems that Mr. Simon was kicked out of the bar the week prior for the same problem. He has a prior reputation of confrontation at local bars. Now this is not to rip on him, this is to set the record straight and bring your speculations to a close with FACTS.

Third, and lastly, BlueDevilRadio is unable to comment on the USCHO.com forums due to his position at the University of Wisconsin - Stout, and due to the on-going investigation and likely trial that will follow. That being said: the comment stated earlier in the forum still stands.

For the sake of the late Mr. Simon, his family, and the Stout community, you should not post on the forum either. that sir is a fact.

 

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Fact: BlueDevilAdvocate is an a..hole

 

[Shsbd1]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Fact:BlueDevilAdvocate is just stating the side that no one even stops to think about.
Fact: there was not 15 players at the bar. from what i hear, i dont even think 15 players were in the city of menomonie that night.
Fact: every article out there says every thing a little different. we wont know the truth until the trial.

 

[MW4Bucky&SNC]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Advocate, I haven't heard one person try to make the victim out to be a saint. He may very well have made several mistakes leading up to the incident, but it doesn't justify the end result here.

 

[NorthernBlight]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Lets get some facts out here. Being a Stout student I have the ability to do my own investigation and I can skip all of your bogus speculations. Instead of taking the time of 30 seconds to think my post through, like some of you on here, I took the time to ask questions and get some truths into the light.

First let me say, in Wisconsin, Riding a bicycle can still result in an OWI (Operating While Intoxicated). The consequences of an OWI are similar to a DUI; Time in jail, loss of license, fines, and AA classes.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/docs/owi-penchrt.pdf

(5) "Bicycle" means every vehicle propelled by the feet acting upon pedals and having wheels any 2 of which are not less than 14 inches in diameter.

Definition taken from:
http://www.1800dialdui.com/CM/DUIDWILaws/DUIDWILaws-Wisconsin-OWI-DWI-DUI-Laws.asp

So why was he on his bike?! That is the question on everyone's mind. You guys can dig on the web for that one. I've done enough.

Second, after talking with bouncers at The Log Jam, is seems that Mr. Simon was kicked out of the bar the week prior for the same problem. He has a prior reputation of confrontation at local bars. Now this is not to rip on him, this is to set the record straight and bring your speculations to a close with FACTS.

Third, and lastly, BlueDevilRadio is unable to comment on the USCHO.com forums due to his position at the University of Wisconsin - Stout, and due to the on-going investigation and likely trial that will follow. That being said: the comment stated earlier in the forum still stands.

I never realized we had one of the Pinkerton Boys in our midst! Two players headed for felony trial and another that was arrested on a lesser charge. The Stout Chancellor has stated the hockey team and its members are under review and Stout Hockey has been mentioned in significant newspapers all over the US and Canada, so logic only follows that this indeed has nothing to do with the hockey team. Whatever it is please pass me some of whatever they must be serving you guys at the local bars.

 

[thebrain]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Second, after talking with bouncers at The Log Jam, is seems that Mr. Simon was kicked out of the bar the week prior for the same problem. He has a prior reputation of confrontation at local bars. Now this is not to rip on him, this is to set the record straight and bring your speculations to a close with FACTS.

Sorry...That's still no reason to chase someone from a bar and throw him off of a bike.

I've been through a somewhat similar situation. I was a member at Phi Sigma Kappa at Minnesota State University Moorhead. When I went back in 2005 to complete my degree, some other members decided to have a party. I went out to bars drinking with other friends, closing them down and going to that party around 2:30 AM. On Sunday, a news report comes out that kid is missing and was last seen at the party. I never saw him, I, and one other member were the last ones out of the basement and I looked around to make sure everyone was gone. He was found days later dead in the Red River. Five friends were charged with felony serving alcohol to a minor, resulting in death and two were charged with contributing to a minor. Those two weren't even at the party. They all eventually plead guilty to contributing to a minor.

I read the police report...The 19 year old had been drinking with friends prior to coming to the house, none of those people were charged with a crime. His wallet and vomit were found in the total other direction from where he was found, halfway between the fraternity house and his house. He was found miles away in the river on the other end of town. The report also listed he had not been taking his depression medication that wasn't prescribed to him.

We all jump to immediate conclusions before facts are out. Has anybody here read the police report? It's public information. It is a very different situation, but investigations can change and charges can change.

The fraternity was shut down after this as well. The actions of a few, lead to the end of an organization. I admit it was probably for the best for it to end the fraternity.

What has the athletic director said? Coach's "No comment" comment, isn't really the best thing to say right now. "No comment" in most people's mind creates the perception of guilt. Right or wrong, that's what it does.

Will any other players be arrested? How many hockey players were actually in the bar? From the bouncer's report, it sounds like several. I think it may be in the best interest to shut it down for the season...The remaining players will be subject to taunts and will be harassed throughout the season.