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UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
- Thread starter Nosmo King
- Start date
Jayden_Stoff
Member
Jayden_Stoff
Member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Can you share a list? I'm skeptical UVM is that far off from average.
The legit criticism around Stenerson is that the coaching staff expected him to play a larger role once some folks graduated and it didn't pan out. There are many reasons for that. He could be injured, bogged down by school, getting out played in practice, etc. He had a decent sophomore season and then never played as a junior.
It's a little too easy to peg you as either a hater or crazy conspiracy theorist. If Stenerson legitimately got better over the summer, came to UVM, and the coaching staff was like "whoa, you're just simply too good now and we can't risk playing you because you're going to out perform all of our expectations and embarrass us for having not predicted this". Wrong. There isn't any scenario where Stenerson got better, could have had a major impact on the team, and the coaching staff decided not to play him.
Can you share a list? I'm skeptical UVM is that far off from average.
The legit criticism around Stenerson is that the coaching staff expected him to play a larger role once some folks graduated and it didn't pan out. There are many reasons for that. He could be injured, bogged down by school, getting out played in practice, etc. He had a decent sophomore season and then never played as a junior.
It's a little too easy to peg you as either a hater or crazy conspiracy theorist. If Stenerson legitimately got better over the summer, came to UVM, and the coaching staff was like "whoa, you're just simply too good now and we can't risk playing you because you're going to out perform all of our expectations and embarrass us for having not predicted this". Wrong. There isn't any scenario where Stenerson got better, could have had a major impact on the team, and the coaching staff decided not to play him.
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
No conspiracy at all and I don't "hate" anyone. I just have a compete lack of respect for Coach Sneddon and how he handles his team. He is lazy and it shows. The facts are the facts and Stenerson was told at the end of his sophomore year he wouldn't play, didn't matter how much he worked in the summer, just like countless others because money was tight and they had promises out there they couldn't live up to without purging someone. The Staffs spring "projections" end up with them rolling the dice..some kids leave, some stay and eat up the scholarship money anyway. That's a fact and I don't need to prove anything to you otherwise. What Sneddon and his staff have done over the past 5-6 years is embarrassing for UVM and he has gotten away with it because the AD had no spine. If they truly would have improved the team and won championships with this type of philosophy I'm sure my posts would fall completely on deaf ears. All schools make recruiting mistakes from time to time and injuries happen but no one that I know of continually pushes scholarship players and positions on the team around from year to year like the UVM Staff. Quality Athletic Directors would not allow it to happen. But, as is the case in any occupation in life, when you cheat the system it eventually catches up to you. The next two years are going to be when this runaway recruit and replace cycle will blow up and it started with Packy. Just my prediction. And I can assure you of one thing, We will win a few 1 goal games next year by "shutting them down" and the PP will be non-existent. When you look at the production numbers of the remaining forwards coupled with the usual decline in offensive production in Sneddon's system, it could be a very long year.
No conspiracy at all and I don't "hate" anyone. I just have a compete lack of respect for Coach Sneddon and how he handles his team. He is lazy and it shows. The facts are the facts and Stenerson was told at the end of his sophomore year he wouldn't play, didn't matter how much he worked in the summer, just like countless others because money was tight and they had promises out there they couldn't live up to without purging someone. The Staffs spring "projections" end up with them rolling the dice..some kids leave, some stay and eat up the scholarship money anyway. That's a fact and I don't need to prove anything to you otherwise. What Sneddon and his staff have done over the past 5-6 years is embarrassing for UVM and he has gotten away with it because the AD had no spine. If they truly would have improved the team and won championships with this type of philosophy I'm sure my posts would fall completely on deaf ears. All schools make recruiting mistakes from time to time and injuries happen but no one that I know of continually pushes scholarship players and positions on the team around from year to year like the UVM Staff. Quality Athletic Directors would not allow it to happen. But, as is the case in any occupation in life, when you cheat the system it eventually catches up to you. The next two years are going to be when this runaway recruit and replace cycle will blow up and it started with Packy. Just my prediction. And I can assure you of one thing, We will win a few 1 goal games next year by "shutting them down" and the PP will be non-existent. When you look at the production numbers of the remaining forwards coupled with the usual decline in offensive production in Sneddon's system, it could be a very long year.
Jayden_Stoff
Member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Clarify your bet and I'll likely take it. They will win more 1 goal games (agreed) and the power play will improve.
Clarify your bet and I'll likely take it. They will win more 1 goal games (agreed) and the power play will improve.
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Bottom half of Hockey East.
I realize that many of the names I will list left or transferred under individual circumstances so I think its important to look at the "body of work" and not get into mice nut details on each of the kids. My point is on turnover and this list does not include the kids who have decomitted or gone the Major Junior route ( which I think is a poor reflection of recruiting time and effort) after an offer or commitment was made. It also does not include complete no shows which there have been 2-3 over his tenure:
Wahs Stacey
Christ Atkinson
Josh Franklin
Kyle Kuk
Tim Gevered
Jeff Hill
Justin Milo
Matt Marshall
David Pacan
Billy Faust
John Vazzano
Arther Griem
Brooks Harrington
Kyle Reynolds
Mike Montagna
Blake Doerring
Kyle Mountain
Alex Vanzanno
Caylin Walls
Pete Massar
Ryan Rosenthal
Brody Hoffman
Robert Polessello
Packy Munson
And there will be 2-3 more this year as soon as it is official bringing the total team turnover to 26-28. Trust me that this number is extremely high on a relative basis for an incumbent tenured coach.
I am pretty sure there are a few missing and I took liberties with some who had injury issues or something alike. What these kids did after leaving UVM (Unlike the opinion of the Free Press) is not at issue and should not be at issue here as in many cases a kid never gets another chance especially if the coaching staff throws them under the bus for what ever reason which is a bad habit of one of the staff members. What is at issue here is either bad initial recruiting and character discovery, or a staff that is too lazy to coach the kids they recruited up into bigger roles as they mature and instead takes a path of recruit and replace.
Oh one other fact to back up my previous posts. Sneddons record at UVM is 176-192-57 which is obviously a losing record and over 50 of those wins came with players he didn't recruit. The 57 ties is astronomical on a relative basis for example Jerry York has 67 ties in twice as many years and Jack Parker had 106 in 43 years so if you don't think we play a "hang on and hope to win" style the body of work says otherwise. Taking a leap of faith and losing a series of games to adapt the style to Hockey East will take more vision and patience than we currently have.
Bottom half of Hockey East.
I realize that many of the names I will list left or transferred under individual circumstances so I think its important to look at the "body of work" and not get into mice nut details on each of the kids. My point is on turnover and this list does not include the kids who have decomitted or gone the Major Junior route ( which I think is a poor reflection of recruiting time and effort) after an offer or commitment was made. It also does not include complete no shows which there have been 2-3 over his tenure:
Wahs Stacey
Christ Atkinson
Josh Franklin
Kyle Kuk
Tim Gevered
Jeff Hill
Justin Milo
Matt Marshall
David Pacan
Billy Faust
John Vazzano
Arther Griem
Brooks Harrington
Kyle Reynolds
Mike Montagna
Blake Doerring
Kyle Mountain
Alex Vanzanno
Caylin Walls
Pete Massar
Ryan Rosenthal
Brody Hoffman
Robert Polessello
Packy Munson
And there will be 2-3 more this year as soon as it is official bringing the total team turnover to 26-28. Trust me that this number is extremely high on a relative basis for an incumbent tenured coach.
I am pretty sure there are a few missing and I took liberties with some who had injury issues or something alike. What these kids did after leaving UVM (Unlike the opinion of the Free Press) is not at issue and should not be at issue here as in many cases a kid never gets another chance especially if the coaching staff throws them under the bus for what ever reason which is a bad habit of one of the staff members. What is at issue here is either bad initial recruiting and character discovery, or a staff that is too lazy to coach the kids they recruited up into bigger roles as they mature and instead takes a path of recruit and replace.
Oh one other fact to back up my previous posts. Sneddons record at UVM is 176-192-57 which is obviously a losing record and over 50 of those wins came with players he didn't recruit. The 57 ties is astronomical on a relative basis for example Jerry York has 67 ties in twice as many years and Jack Parker had 106 in 43 years so if you don't think we play a "hang on and hope to win" style the body of work says otherwise. Taking a leap of faith and losing a series of games to adapt the style to Hockey East will take more vision and patience than we currently have.
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Jayden_Stoff
Member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
I see your point but you're diluting effectiveness by going for list length. Schools have departures, it's a part of college hockey and with your generous reasons to make the list I would expect UVM below BU and BC. Most of the list I would attribute to the previous assistant coach(s) getting it wrong. The criticality of and the dependency on the assistant coach(s) can easily get overlooked. They are the ones on the road recruiting. Not to absolve Sneddon of guilt around the problem, he doesn't do enough to develop offensive capabilities of the players that come in. Chris McCarthy grew steadily but he's the exception, not the rule. Back to Sneddon, he doesn't take any BS and, to his credit IMHO, has the balls to tell players ahead of time that they aren't going to get playing time well in advance so they can plan accordingly. I've been impressed with every player I've met in person from Sneddon's tenure, probably around 5 including Sifers, McCarthy, Reynolds, Hoffman for sure. It was a shame Kyle Mountain didn't work out, classy guy but didn't make it skill wise. Sneddon likes to praise all his guys as much as he can in the press and keeps a lot of the feedback private. Considering this is college hockey, not pro, I consider that a mark of professionalism.
Anyway, my goal isn't to sing praises of a coaching staff that I would agree isn't taking the team to the heights I'd like to see it, hasn't shown signs of being able to change the program, doesn't seem to have the answer for the future. Skeptical next year will be a big improvement but was interested to see your bet. UVM was last for special teams effectiveness last year, so they can only go one way. Sneddon is a heck of a coach and while the wins/losses frustrate me, especially when I see the schedule for the season and figure many weekends we'll be lucky to get 1 point (BC, PC, ND, BU, UML), I never question his work ethic or dedication to bringing student-athletes of exceptional character on campus. Finding a viable alternative to Sneddon, what, are you going to suggest Jerry York should come to UVM? It does irritate me the Norm Bazin took UML to perennial hockey east powerhouse status while Sneddon got bumped down. What burns me up even more than that is UVM suggesting they need more $$ to be competitive. Non-sense. UVM has to generate more revenue than many of the teams in HE and I would expect is top 10 nationally yet they claim they need more money. Doesn't add up to me.
I see your point but you're diluting effectiveness by going for list length. Schools have departures, it's a part of college hockey and with your generous reasons to make the list I would expect UVM below BU and BC. Most of the list I would attribute to the previous assistant coach(s) getting it wrong. The criticality of and the dependency on the assistant coach(s) can easily get overlooked. They are the ones on the road recruiting. Not to absolve Sneddon of guilt around the problem, he doesn't do enough to develop offensive capabilities of the players that come in. Chris McCarthy grew steadily but he's the exception, not the rule. Back to Sneddon, he doesn't take any BS and, to his credit IMHO, has the balls to tell players ahead of time that they aren't going to get playing time well in advance so they can plan accordingly. I've been impressed with every player I've met in person from Sneddon's tenure, probably around 5 including Sifers, McCarthy, Reynolds, Hoffman for sure. It was a shame Kyle Mountain didn't work out, classy guy but didn't make it skill wise. Sneddon likes to praise all his guys as much as he can in the press and keeps a lot of the feedback private. Considering this is college hockey, not pro, I consider that a mark of professionalism.
Anyway, my goal isn't to sing praises of a coaching staff that I would agree isn't taking the team to the heights I'd like to see it, hasn't shown signs of being able to change the program, doesn't seem to have the answer for the future. Skeptical next year will be a big improvement but was interested to see your bet. UVM was last for special teams effectiveness last year, so they can only go one way. Sneddon is a heck of a coach and while the wins/losses frustrate me, especially when I see the schedule for the season and figure many weekends we'll be lucky to get 1 point (BC, PC, ND, BU, UML), I never question his work ethic or dedication to bringing student-athletes of exceptional character on campus. Finding a viable alternative to Sneddon, what, are you going to suggest Jerry York should come to UVM? It does irritate me the Norm Bazin took UML to perennial hockey east powerhouse status while Sneddon got bumped down. What burns me up even more than that is UVM suggesting they need more $$ to be competitive. Non-sense. UVM has to generate more revenue than many of the teams in HE and I would expect is top 10 nationally yet they claim they need more money. Doesn't add up to me.
Jayden_Stoff
Member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
UVM just outside the top 3rd for attendance #'s and I have to figure top 10 for per game ticket price. Hard to get data on ticket price.
http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendance/division-i-men/2015-2016/
UVM just outside the top 3rd for attendance #'s and I have to figure top 10 for per game ticket price. Hard to get data on ticket price.
http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendance/division-i-men/2015-2016/
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Maybe they should just try keeping a stable roster and developing their talent. talent is not the problem. UVM staff=Gong show
Maybe they should just try keeping a stable roster and developing their talent. talent is not the problem. UVM staff=Gong show
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
"Sneddon is a heck of a coach"
Why would you think that is even remotely the case?
Worst special teams in the NCAA.....sign of poor coaching. As has been discussed over and over again on this thread, there are no systems of any sophistication level......high off the glass out of the zone and dump in chase into the offensive zone. Come on.......
Another sign of a good coach is the ability to put the right players in the right situations. Power play not working....change the personnel if you think your system is good. Same players all year. Mike Lee on the point? Really? No shot and no savvy and he played every pp all year. Why? Good coaching? Mario had one of if not the worst shooting percentage in the NCAA. How many situations that could have been dangerous resulted in an easy save or a cleared puck because Mario decided that he didn't have teammates and took the shot from a non scoring position? Good coaching? The team is at the bottom of the NCAA in winning faceoffs. Did they ever practice it or try other players to see who could win more then 50% of their draws? Nope. Good coaching?
Wallack and Patrick appear to be fairly useless and this would be ok if Sneddon took charge and made it happen. He does not.
"Sneddon is a heck of a coach"
Why would you think that is even remotely the case?
Worst special teams in the NCAA.....sign of poor coaching. As has been discussed over and over again on this thread, there are no systems of any sophistication level......high off the glass out of the zone and dump in chase into the offensive zone. Come on.......
Another sign of a good coach is the ability to put the right players in the right situations. Power play not working....change the personnel if you think your system is good. Same players all year. Mike Lee on the point? Really? No shot and no savvy and he played every pp all year. Why? Good coaching? Mario had one of if not the worst shooting percentage in the NCAA. How many situations that could have been dangerous resulted in an easy save or a cleared puck because Mario decided that he didn't have teammates and took the shot from a non scoring position? Good coaching? The team is at the bottom of the NCAA in winning faceoffs. Did they ever practice it or try other players to see who could win more then 50% of their draws? Nope. Good coaching?
Wallack and Patrick appear to be fairly useless and this would be ok if Sneddon took charge and made it happen. He does not.
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
To be honest most the players on this list had more than enough chances to impress and didnt. And the ones that did show offen ability had other issues (Milo,Stacey). Packy was good but lets not call him the next Tim Thomas. His numbers were helped early by a weak part of the schedule. In league both played 11 games and Santa was 2.46 .914 and Packy 3.03 .899 he is good but lets not act like they let a All league goalie walk.
Not a single player on your list would be a top player on a team like BC/Bu etc. so lets not act like they ran Studs out of the locker room.
UVM doesnt get the Draft prospects the big schools do so they have to bring in more players to increase the chance they can find a diamond in the ruf. Cost of that is more turnover. And as long as we dont have a new arena this is what UVM will have to do.
To be honest most the players on this list had more than enough chances to impress and didnt. And the ones that did show offen ability had other issues (Milo,Stacey). Packy was good but lets not call him the next Tim Thomas. His numbers were helped early by a weak part of the schedule. In league both played 11 games and Santa was 2.46 .914 and Packy 3.03 .899 he is good but lets not act like they let a All league goalie walk.
Not a single player on your list would be a top player on a team like BC/Bu etc. so lets not act like they ran Studs out of the locker room.
UVM doesnt get the Draft prospects the big schools do so they have to bring in more players to increase the chance they can find a diamond in the ruf. Cost of that is more turnover. And as long as we dont have a new arena this is what UVM will have to do.
Vermont Ref
Registered User
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
I am amazed at all the expertise we have on this thread. Seems so simple. I, like most, am dissapointed in how our team has done, but it isn't easy being in the best league and trying to recruit against the BC's etc. I do wish I knew how Norm Bazin turned UML around so quickly. UVM does have higher academic standards and a great rink but nothing as nice as UMLs. I do know Kevin has high standards for his players and he cares about them. Most will be better people when they leave. Last years schedule was the toughest of any team, and we did very well against those teams, just didn't get the w's, I don't know the assitants well. They are the recruiters so a lot rests with them, at least one of them. Maybe this is one of the weaknesses. I'm optimistic for 2016-17 and Kevin's ability to turn things around. I think Jeff, as the new AD, will be a positive force for all sports.
I am amazed at all the expertise we have on this thread. Seems so simple. I, like most, am dissapointed in how our team has done, but it isn't easy being in the best league and trying to recruit against the BC's etc. I do wish I knew how Norm Bazin turned UML around so quickly. UVM does have higher academic standards and a great rink but nothing as nice as UMLs. I do know Kevin has high standards for his players and he cares about them. Most will be better people when they leave. Last years schedule was the toughest of any team, and we did very well against those teams, just didn't get the w's, I don't know the assitants well. They are the recruiters so a lot rests with them, at least one of them. Maybe this is one of the weaknesses. I'm optimistic for 2016-17 and Kevin's ability to turn things around. I think Jeff, as the new AD, will be a positive force for all sports.
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
This is not what successful schools who can't/don't get top prospects (QU, Union, UML, etc.) do, and IMO even if it did lead to success in the standings should not be done, as it is not the moral way to go about it.
This is not what successful schools who can't/don't get top prospects (QU, Union, UML, etc.) do, and IMO even if it did lead to success in the standings should not be done, as it is not the moral way to go about it.
Nosmo King
New member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Maybe we can convince Hoser to leave Band Camp to come coach. He seems to be all knowing with all the answers.
Maybe we can convince Hoser to leave Band Camp to come coach. He seems to be all knowing with all the answers.
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
LOL.......a horribly stern rebuke, especially coming from the King.
Perhaps you could tell me why I am wrong, in your esteemed opinion. Happy to learn.
LOL.......a horribly stern rebuke, especially coming from the King.
Perhaps you could tell me why I am wrong, in your esteemed opinion. Happy to learn.
UVM Cat in Texas
Now UVM Cat in Georgia
UVM Cat in Texas
Now UVM Cat in Georgia
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Packy may not have been the next Tim Thomas, but we'll never know, at least not at UVM. He was certainly off to a good start though. Good enough to be picked up by one of the premier programs in college hockey!!! If the rumors related to his departure are to be believed, it's a real screw up by someone, and I'd have to say that someone is Sneddon given that he's the head coach.
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Jayden_Stoff
Member
Re: UVM 2016 Off-Season Thread
Question for the forum - who is the most successful player more or less asked to leave (meaning they didn't leave early and sign some sort of pro contract) under Sneddon's tenure? I'm going to go with David Pacan. My understanding is that he was asked to leave for complications with under aged drinking and was considered too much of a liability to have on Campus. Mike Adkinson might be a candidate in IMHO. He collected around 50 points playing for QU. He was asked to leave UVM after crashing a car into a building on campus while drunk before playing any games or maybe even starting to practice with the team.
Question for the forum - who is the most successful player more or less asked to leave (meaning they didn't leave early and sign some sort of pro contract) under Sneddon's tenure? I'm going to go with David Pacan. My understanding is that he was asked to leave for complications with under aged drinking and was considered too much of a liability to have on Campus. Mike Adkinson might be a candidate in IMHO. He collected around 50 points playing for QU. He was asked to leave UVM after crashing a car into a building on campus while drunk before playing any games or maybe even starting to practice with the team.