Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I'm told that if the Comets decide to stay for the remaining 5 years they will be designated the primary tenant, and can then schedule their home games without any regard for UC's convenience. If that is the case, then Utica will likely have to play some games at odd times at The Aud -if the W allows it- or at another site entirely. (The Clinton Arena, when available, was cited as the fall-back venue.)

You mean Utica might have to play some games...wait for it ....wait for it....wait for it....on the road?????

Just a side thought too...after doing some research I see Utica is currently 23rd out of 30 teams in Average Attendance with 3,227. While it doesn't come close to the 9,240 at Hersey Utica is the ONLY AHL team whose city has a metro population under 100,000 (95,960 if you add Rome and Utica). 12 AHL Teams have over 1 million in their metro area (with Bridgeport and Worcester at 920,000+).

Having said that..
% of Population / Avg Attendance
Utica 3.36
St. John's 3.19
Lake Erie 2.66
Adirondack 2.41
Hershey 1.75
Rockford 1.45
Abbotsford 1.37
Binghamton 1.34
Manchester 1.16
Iowa 0.97

So for as small as Utica is (compared to other AHL teams) I think it's safe to say their attendance is pretty decent. Enough to sustain a quality AHL Hockey team in these days? That's TBD.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

You mean Utica might have to play some games...wait for it ....wait for it....wait for it....on the road?????
...
So for as small as Utica is (compared to other AHL teams) I think it's safe to say their attendance is pretty decent. Enough to sustain a quality AHL Hockey team in these days? That's TBD.

...

"It's so expensive to run these franchises now," Landon said.

AHL owners pay a roughly $1 million NHL affiliation fee and are responsible for front office salaries, travel costs, insurance and building leases that vary from city to city, depending on market size. Player salaries are paid by their parent NHL teams.

On the flip side, AHL franchises have three main sources of income - corporate sponsorship and advertising, season tickets and group sales. "If you don't have the revenue stream you're never going to make it work," Landon said. "You can't survive on 3,500 fans a game any more. We need to get to 4,000. That's a big jump."

 

[joecct]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

It's 284 miles (according to the NCAA) from Utica to Neumann. That should be the upper limit of mileage for Utica.

Let's look at who is in range once you cross the Hudson....
Anyone in Western MA or VT is good to go.
Plymouth St is 272 miles.
Babson College is 253 miles
Bowdoin is 392 (almost, but not quite a flight!) (Bates is 396 miles - keep that in mind for the tournament)
Curry is 269 miles
Salem St. is 285 miles
Mass-Boston is 267 miles
Mass-Dartmouth is 287 miles.
Nichols College is 221 miles
Johnson & Wales is 259 miles
Salve Regina is 293 miles

So, there quality out there, if they want to hop on the bus.

 

[Pioneers#1]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Some UC hockey-parents who have been reliable sources in the past tell me that the "6-year" deal Vancouver has with The Aud contains an opt-out clause after this season.

I'm sure the Utica College parents have reliable non-biased sources that they're getting their information from I can assure you, they're wrong on that one. Once again.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I have no interest in getting in the middle of these rants (either side) but the sound system, which was bad, is even worse than it was. Maybe it's the settings (to load with too much bass), maybe it's the speakers or the mic, but I couldn't understand a word of anything that was said. Everyone that was sitting around me said the same thing. It could be that it depends on where you sit I guess. If so, the upgrade was a waste of money. Hopefully it can be adjusted or fixed.

The Ushers are doing their job, which this year includes holding fans up until there is a stop in play before they can go back to their seats. This is LONG overdue IMHO. It's one of the most annoying things to have your view blocked as people walk in front of you or ask you to let them in. Colgate has always done this and it shows respect to the game, players, and fans. It's about the game.

As far as the Comets go, I wish them all the luck in the world. I'll probably make a game or 2. I have no idea on how they'll make money or if they even will. That's their problem. If they move on so be it. At least I'll get to see some AHL hockey and future NHL players as I did when the Devils were here. It's all good, but fix the sound system, please.

Thanks for chiming-in.

Nobody I talked to that night could understand anything that was broadcast via the PA, and I heard from a couple of friends that it has been just as bad for the Comets' games so far, as well. (It was especially frustrating when we couldn't make out which penalty was called, because God knows you need a little help there when you're trying to figure out what certain D-3 refs are calling.)

As far as the ushers went: one stood directly in front of us -right in the middle of the stands front of us for several minutes during live play- officiously directing two people as to where they should sit... But that's nothing new. I asked the Aud head honcho three years back if he'd institute a "wait for the whistle" policy, and he mumbled something about working on it, but that situation has remained unaddressed since Year One.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

It's 284 miles (according to the NCAA) from Utica to Neumann. That should be the upper limit of mileage for Utica.

Let's look at who is in range once you cross the Hudson....
Anyone in Western MA or VT is good to go.
Plymouth St is 272 miles.
Babson College is 253 miles
Bowdoin is 392 (almost, but not quite a flight!) (Bates is 396 miles - keep that in mind for the tournament)
Curry is 269 miles
Salem St. is 285 miles
Mass-Boston is 267 miles
Mass-Dartmouth is 287 miles.
Nichols College is 221 miles
Johnson & Wales is 259 miles
Salve Regina is 293 miles

So, there quality out there, if they want to hop on the bus.

Joe, I believe that Champs was trolling about the Utica AHL team this time, pursuant to whatever demented-logic/misplaced-anger inspiration motivated him to post on the UC thread that particular beer-fueled afternoon, or morning. There's no telling why he spends so much time here, while saying nothing pertinent... It's become even more sad than it is vexing to skim his feeble posts lately.

Anyway, while the red-herring subject of UC's OOC schedule is an popular one among his clueless ilk, the point of this recent discussion concerned the possibility of Utica College's home schedule being disrupted at some point in the future, as I'm sure you've figured-out already.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Just a side thought too...after doing some research I see Utica is currently 23rd out of 30 teams in Average Attendance with 3,227. While it doesn't come close to the 9,240 at Hersey Utica is the ONLY AHL team whose city has a metro population under 100,000 (95,960 if you add Rome and Utica). 12 AHL Teams have over 1 million in their metro area (with Bridgeport and Worcester at 920,000+).

Having said that..
% of Population / Avg Attendance
Utica 3.36
St. John's 3.19
Lake Erie 2.66
Adirondack 2.41
Hershey 1.75
Rockford 1.45
Abbotsford 1.37
Binghamton 1.34
Manchester 1.16
Iowa 0.97

So for as small as Utica is (compared to other AHL teams) I think it's safe to say their attendance is pretty decent. Enough to sustain a quality AHL Hockey team in these days? That's TBD.

Congratulations on your latest brain-child.

Tell ya what, following your predictably-dubious line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, maybe Vancouver should just site themselves at the Possum Butt Municipal Rink (capacity 100) and climb to the top of your specious rankings via selling 100% of their seats each and every night?

I suppose that you were happy to waste your time coming up with that worthless list -you do that sort of thing with alarming regularity- but it's all about absolute numbers at the pro level, you dummy.

(No offense intended.)

 

[sshablak]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I'm sure the Utica College parents have reliable non-biased sources that they're getting their information from I can assure you, they're wrong on that one. Once again.

There is indeed an "opt out" clause. I read it.

 

[jcase]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

There is indeed an "opt out" clause. I read it.

FWIW, I heard from a good source that any "opt-out" clause is not in play until after three years.

 

[NorthernBlight]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

There's no telling why he spends so much time here, while saying nothing pertinent... It's become even more sad than it is vexing to skim his feeble posts lately.

Funny you should mention this since this is exactly how most people feel about you.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

There is indeed an "opt out" clause. I read it.

...

MVG’s contract with the Canucks is for six years. Esche acknowledged there is an escape clause but suggested it is heavily weighted in MVG’s favor and something the Canucks would be very reluctant to exercise.

We know that it's a six year agreement, the length of which - surprise, surprise - precisely mirrors the time remaining on the deal between the Calgary Flames, Fraser Valley Sports and Entertainment (FVSE), and the city of Abbotsford. MVG President, former National Hockey League puckstopper Robert Esche, confirmed to the Utica Observer Dispatch that the agreement has "an escape clause," though he vaguely added that the clause "is heavily weighted in MVG’s favor and something the Canucks would be very reluctant to exercise."

According to Gilman, there are mutual outs for both parties at various points throughout the term.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Could it be?

http://s23.postimg.org/exi6brcez/fishman.jpg

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

FWIW, I heard from a good source that any "opt-out" clause is not in play until after three years.

The details of the contract are apparently not available to anyone outside of the people who drew it up... I've talked to everyone from Aud officials to OD reporters, and I get the distinct impression that the principals who signed this contract are bound by a gag-order of some sort. (Shabby, can you clarify?)

Still, it makes the most economic sense to me that the opt-out will be in play after the Comets' first season. One would assume that Vancouver possesses the business savvy to avoid tying their own hands any longer than is necessary in this very marginal AHL market.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I'm curious as to if anyone who actually follows UC hockey has an opinion on the coming weekend's games.

(My $0.02...)

Elmira is getting zero respect in the USCHO poll, but is returning a large % of their young scorers from last year's admittedly-mediocre team. I don't see them as walkover by any means. (I haven't taken the time to crunch Hobart's numbers yet , but I don't really feel as though I need to: that team is always good.)

W in-conference games are happening early/often and Utica better show up to play them, or it's gonna bite them in the touchis down the road.

(I wasn't very impressed by the Brockport game; UC should have won that game 8-1, and I'm looking for a more effective effort this weekend.)

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The details of the contract are apparently not available to anyone outside of the people who drew it up... I've talked to everyone from Aud officials to OD reporters, and I get the distinct impression that the principals who signed this contract are bound by a gag-order of some sort. (Shabby, can you clarify?)

Still, it makes the most economic sense to me that the opt-out will be in play after the Comets' first season. One would assume that Vancouver possesses the business savvy to avoid tying their own hands any longer than is necessary in this very marginal AHL market.

The most important thing to consider, they (Vancouver) spent a lot of money and resources in choosing Utica - they have enough business savvy to realize that using an opt-out clause will require them to once again spend a lot of money and resources to relocate as well as damage to their reputation in future contract negotiations. I do agree the opt-out will be in play after the Comets' first season - but the "economies" in play are more than just the short term dollars & cents. Every fisherman knows, you sometimes have to experiment with different baits to catch the big ones, of course without the right equipment getting them on the line doesn't mean you are going to land them.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The most important thing to consider, they (Vancouver) spent a lot of money and resources in choosing Utica - they have enough business savvy to realize that using an opt-out clause will require them to once again spend a lot of money and resources to relocate as well as damage to their reputation in future contract negotiations. I do agree the opt-out will be in play after the Comets' first season - but the "economies" in play are more than just the short term dollars & cents. Every fisherman knows, you sometimes have to experiment with different baits to catch the big ones, of course without the right equipment getting them on the line doesn't mean you are going to land them.

Weighing in with all the perception of a 67 year old statistician...

Some of it depends on exactly what the objectives are that Vancouver has in all this.

They may figure that if the environment is correct for developing the players that they want to have with the attitudes and responses to various situations, taking a loss on franchise operations at a site like Utica could be acceptable and even desirable. It's a question of how much they are willing to "pay." If Utica can support the franchise with enthusiasm and embrace the team there is an opportunity for the players to learn how to be a part of pro franchise that is central to the community, moreso than if they are players on a minor league team in a major league market.

Being a big fish in a small pond may be better for player development than being a small fish in a big pond. Depends on objectives and cost/benefit analysis from that point of view as much as anything. This team seems to have created some "buzz" in Utica. Would an AHL team in a Vancouver suburb create this much buzz?

Here in Colorado, we have two minor league hockey teams, one in the Fort Collins area (the Eagles, an independent ECHL team), and the other (the CutThroats, an Avs Central Hockey League farm team), operating right out of downtown Denver at the Colliseum (the site of the Denver Stock Show). In Fort Collins the Eagles get a lot of attention and are very popular. The Eagles have limited their season ticket sales so that fans can buy walk up tickets.

I have no idea how the CutThroats are doing. No scores on TV, no scores in the Denver Post. I don't know if anybody pays any attention to them at all except for Avs brass. I don't have a clue what kind of attendance they get. Proximity for a minor league affiliate to the NHL team is kind of a two edged sword. The players can kind of operate in anonymity. Is that really good for player development or not?

Just a few random thoughts...

 

[sshablak]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The details of the contract are apparently not available to anyone outside of the people who drew it up... I've talked to everyone from Aud officials to OD reporters, and I get the distinct impression that the principals who signed this contract are bound by a gag-order of some sort. (Shabby, can you clarify?)

Still, it makes the most economic sense to me that the opt-out will be in play after the Comets' first season. One would assume that Vancouver possesses the business savvy to avoid tying their own hands any longer than is necessary in this very marginal AHL market.

I'm trying to get details about the opt out clause, being kept very secret. The only thing I have been able to find out is that if they leave it will cost them beaucoup bucks, with compensation going to Utica. Also, the Comet coaches are all but gone, Utica Management is very unhappy with them.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Thanks, Shabby; interesting stuff; I never envisioned that Vancouver would ink an opt-out clause that included a substantial monetary penalty... (What were they thinking when agreeing to that, FCS?)

Anyhoo, things were much better at The Aud tonight. I corralled an suit there, and he said that -pursuant to a ton of complaints- the fog horn volume was lowered to its original decibel-level, and that they had ordered a "part" which they expected will return the PA system to some semblance of intelligibility. As far as the ushers allowing wandering fans during live play, which was as bad as ever tonight? They're "still working on it"... But at least he acknowledged the all the pertinent issues. (That's for you, Pioneers #1.)

The game itself was a classic, though, despite all the penalties. Both teams were skating balls-out all night long. Best D-3 contest I've seen in a long while, and the new, good ice we have here now was a gigantic factor re: the guys holding their edges and connecting on passes. It was terrifically entertaining to watch.

[As an aside, EC seems to be well on its way back to national prominence. That squad has size, speed, strength and youth (71% of its roster are Fr./So.) I'm predicting that Elmira will be a Holy Terror in '15-'16, if not well before that.]

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Weighing in with all the perception of a 67 year old statistician...

Some of it depends on exactly what the objectives are that Vancouver has in all this.

They may figure that if the environment is correct for developing the players that they want to have with the attitudes and responses to various situations, taking a loss on franchise operations at a site like Utica could be acceptable and even desirable. It's a question of how much they are willing to "pay." If Utica can support the franchise with enthusiasm and embrace the team there is an opportunity for the players to learn how to be a part of pro franchise that is central to the community, moreso than if they are players on a minor league team in a major league market.

Being a big fish in a small pond may be better for player development than being a small fish in a big pond. Depends on objectives and cost/benefit analysis from that point of view as much as anything. This team seems to have created some "buzz" in Utica. Would an AHL team in a Vancouver suburb create this much buzz?

Here in Colorado, we have two minor league hockey teams, one in the Fort Collins area (the Eagles, an independent ECHL team), and the other (the CutThroats, an Avs Central Hockey League farm team), operating right out of downtown Denver at the Colliseum (the site of the Denver Stock Show). In Fort Collins the Eagles get a lot of attention and are very popular. The Eagles have limited their season ticket sales so that fans can buy walk up tickets.

I have no idea how the CutThroats are doing. No scores on TV, no scores in the Denver Post. I don't know if anybody pays any attention to them at all except for Avs brass. I don't have a clue what kind of attendance they get. Proximity for a minor league affiliate to the NHL team is kind of a two edged sword. The players can kind of operate in anonymity. Is that really good for player development or not?

Just a few random thoughts...

Thoughtful post; thanks for your input.

I don't know enough about the economics of the situation to have an informed opinion, but it was made public that Vancouver was considering loaning its entire roster to various AHL teams vs. making a home in Utica. That fact alone might constitute a red flag in terms of their commitment to this area, and in terms of the relative expense of the former v. the latter situation.

One other thing to consider (albeit the very small sample-size involved) is that UC will likely sell out its third consecutive home game tomorrow, while the Comets' attendance is already on the wane to the tune of 800 fewer folks per game... Makes me wonder about who's the actual big dog in Utica, even now?

As I've opined previously, I'm fine with the AHL being here, as long as they don't screw-up what Utica College has built from the ground-up over 12+ years. I truly hope that both teams can continue to co-exist seamlessly.

Having said that, I still contend that Utica is much better suited to be a big D-3 town, as opposed to a small AHL town... UC is right-sized for this withering community, and the Comets are attempting to accomplish a futile square peg/round hole thing.

(It's not gonna work long-term, and The Aud ought not to be so foolish as to throw the baby out with the bath-water.)

 

[sshablak]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Utica College is the "big dog" right now, even channel 10 out of Syracuse had a nice set of footage and highlites of the game!