University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

“Here they are going to talk about the fate of the Fighting Sioux, and the name and the proper use that UND has given it, and the tribe that supports it, they don’t even want to hear from,” said Frank Black Cloud

This is utter nonsense! The NCAA most certainly recognized Spirit Lake's approval of the nickname. But without the approval of Standing Rock, what would be the point of a few Native American supporters coming to an ill-fated meeting arranged by the ND legislature based upon legislation that is clearly unconstitutional?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

This is utter nonsense! The NCAA most certainly recognized Spirit Lake's approval of the nickname. But without the approval of Standing Rock, what would be the point of a few Native American supporters coming to an ill-fated meeting arranged by the ND legislature based upon legislation that is clearly unconstitutional?

Does Standing Rock have an official position?

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

Does Standing Rock have an official position?

Of course, they're considered a UND namesake tribe by the NCAA. Although ill conceived, this was one of the points Rep. Carlson tried to use to persuade the NCAA to change their mind.

Carlson says he and state and UND leaders did bring everything to the table -- pitching that even though Standing Rock was never going to have a vote, but they were the ones who gave UND the name the first place.

 

[willythekid]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

So the Standing Rock tribe has no say? Why not?

because they declined to allow the members of their tribe to vote on the issue, that's why...

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

because they declined to allow the members of their tribe to vote on the issue, that's why...

It's important to keep in mind, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters. That's why Charles Murphy from Standing Rock made statements to the effect that there were other more important issues for the tribal council to consider.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

It's important to keep in mind, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters. That's why Charles Murphy from Standing Rock made statements to the effect that there were other more important issues for the tribal council to consider.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view.

As far as I've seen, Standing Rock's position is they don't have one...is that correct? Did they ever officially say they oppose the nickname?

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

It's important to keep in mind, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view.

You are giving the Tribal Council too much weight in your assessment of the situation. It's becoming increasingly common that Tribal Courts are going back to Tribal Common Law and culture than following Tribal Council statutes. Many feel that the Tribal Council has lost its way, and is not reflective of the tribe as a whole, both culturally, and historically.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

As far as I've seen, Standing Rock's position is they don't have one...is that correct? Did they ever officially say they oppose the nickname?

I'm not 100% sure. I believe that the council has stated that they are against the nickname, while the people (at least those who have been polled) are overwhelmingly in favor of granting UND permission to use it.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

As far as I've seen, Standing Rock's position is they don't have one...is that correct? Did they ever officially say they oppose the nickname?

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe

VOTE: YES - 12 NO - 0 NOT VOTING - 1 MOTION CARRIED. 4 - EXCUSED RESOLUTION NO. 078-98

WHEREAS, the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe is an unincorporated Tribe of Indians, having accepted the Indian Reorganization Act of June 18, 1934, with the exception of Article 16; and the recognized governing body of the Tribe is known as the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Council; and

WHEREAS the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe had issued Resolution No. 356-92 to demand that the University of North Dakota discontinue the use of the name and mascot of the "Fighting Sioux"; and

WHEREAS, the University Administration has stated in the past that such actions, like the racially insensitive ones of October 24, 1992, will not be tolerated on campus; and

WHEREAS the University is sending a Dual Message to the students of UND, by attempting to provide a quality education for its students, but subjects indigenous students, namely those of the Lakota/Dakota Peoples of North America, to continued racial actions, by not changing its "Sioux" and "Fighting Sioux" nicknames; and

NOW THEREFORE LET IT BE RESOLVED, the undersigned Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Council hereby reaffirms the Resolution of December 3, 1992, specifically that the University of North Dakota should discontinue the use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the foregoing resolution shall be effective on this date and shall remain in full force effect thereafter. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Chairman and the Secretary of the Tribal Council are hereby authorized and instructed to sign this resolution for and on behalf of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.

 

[willythekid]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

It's important to keep in mind, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters. That's why Charles Murphy from Standing Rock made statements to the effect that there were other more important issues for the tribal council to consider.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view.

So this is a "marginal issue"? This whole time I thought North Dakota was giving up the name because it was so degrading to Native Americans... It is what it is but IMHO if you are not willing to let the voices of your people speak, you yourself should not be allowed to do so. The reason they did not allow the vote is because Standing Rock knew what the outcome was going to be.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

You are giving the Tribal Council too much weight in your assessment of the situation. It's becoming increasingly common that Tribal Courts are going back to Tribal Common Law and culture than following Tribal Council statutes. Many feel that the Tribal Council has lost its way, and is not reflective of the tribe as a whole, both culturally, and historically.

You don't seem to understand my post at all. I'm not talking about statutes, I'm referring to the tribal council as a governing institution that acts on behalf of the people. Some tribal councils have long sought to function according to democratic principles (separation of powers, legislative body, legal precedents, etc.). These are socio-political hybrid structures that have contextually developed in the past several decades as attempts to interact with governing powers of the State and Federal government. However, the historical and authentic tribal government structures as recognized sovereign and self governing entities are coming more into vogue today and are based upon specific ethnic, religious and linguistic distinctions. This departure from the Greco-Roman government structures is in a sense a statement of protest itself and a return to authentic Native American tribal leadership.

That's why so many are puzzled when they read accounts indicating they don't have time to discuss the nickname issue or it's too expensive to bring the issue to a vote. Of course they have time and I'm sure if there was any willingness to change whatsoever the money would suddenly appear. But that is simply their way of publically "saving face" and retaining their "honor" and it essentially means they will NEVER, and I mean NEVER change their stance on the nickname. The UND constituency, and college sports (i.e. ice hockey) mean very little in terms of their intrinsic worldview. Make no mistake about it, they invoke their ancestor spirits and the answer has been deposited in their etheric soul which constitutes the core understanding of their ontology of self.

That's what basically happened in April with the following tribes. LEADERS (not the entire tribes) of 11 out of the 16 northern Great Plains tribes or 69% also voted to reaffirm their support of the NCAA's policy calling for elimination of American Indian nicknames, logos and mascots at member colleges and universities. Nine of them are Sioux tribes in the Dakotas and Nebraska; and the other two are the Omaha and Winnebago tribes of Nebraska.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

You don't seem to understand my post at all. Lots of fluff...Rabble Rabble Rabble...

I was not responding to one specific post, but several of your posts over the course of the past few days which keep bringing up the Tribal Council. I was merely stating that the Tribal Council is more and more a group of 12 that is not representative of the whole.

Anyway, it's really a ridiculous argument at this point. North Dakota will move on without the nickname. Hopefully they go without a nickname for a time, and think about what they want the new nickname to be.

In more important news, Grand Forks native Luke Johnson and Hill-Murray prospect Luke Voltin have committed to North Dakota. Many had thought that Johnson might have chosen SCSU (his father is an assistant there).

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

I was not responding to one specific post, but several of your posts over the course of the past few days which keep bringing up the Tribal Council. I was merely stating that the Tribal Council is more and more a group of 12 that is not representative of the whole.

Anyway, it's really a ridiculous argument at this point. North Dakota will move on without the nickname. Hopefully they go without a nickname for a time, and think about what they want the new nickname to be.

In more important news, Grand Forks native Luke Johnson and Hill-Murray prospect Luke Voltin have committed to North Dakota. Many had thought that Johnson might have chosen SCSU (his father is an assistant there).

BTW, your User ID is "offensive" to many Native Americans. If you have any dignity and multicultural sensitivity, you'll change it too. But then again your another myopic UND fan with an axe to grind.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

BTW, your User ID is "offensive" to many Native Americans. If you have any dignity and multicultural sensitivity, you'll change it too. But then again your another myopic UND fan with an axe to grind.

Because everyone on here knows how myopic I am. Personal insults are a great way to lose an argument by the way.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, finds my User ID offensive, please place me on ignore and you will not have to deal with my User ID any longer.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

Does every sioux in the world have to say yes or does just one tribe have to approve? Did all seminole tribes approve of FSU? Why stop there...maybe the vote of the tribes needs to be unanimous?

No. The two major tripes in ND needed to approve it. That was the agreement which UND signed. Seems simple enough, or is this the first you've heard of this issue?

 

[goldy_331]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

because they declined to allow the members of their tribe to vote on the issue, that's why...

So you, some white guy in Fargo gets to decide that? How about we let the Standnign Rock tribe work it out? If they don't like the Council's position, I'm sure there are avenues of recourse for them to change, or remove the Council.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

Because everyone on here knows how myopic I am. Personal insults are a great way to lose an argument by the way.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, finds my User ID offensive, please place me on ignore and you will not have to deal with my User ID any longer. I will be doing this to you Harley, so feel free to reciprocate.

See, that's the problem with UND fans these days...no sense of humor at all.

 

[willythekid]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

So you, some white guy in Fargo gets to decide that? How about we let the Standnign Rock tribe work it out? If they don't like the Council's position, I'm sure there are avenues of recourse for them to change, or remove the Council.

yes, I get to decide what is my opinion on this matter. BTW you seem fine with a bunch of white men in Indianapolis dictating what UND does...

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

So you, some white guy in Fargo gets to decide that? How about we let the Standnign Rock tribe work it out? If they don't like the Council's position, I'm sure there are avenues of recourse for them to change, or remove the Council.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter anymore. The name is gone. I hope the University keeps honoring the name, and the University's history with it, but I worry that it will go the way of the Flickertail, and will become some odd fact that someone presents at Freshman Orientation in 30 years.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012

yes, I get to decide what is my opinion on this matter. BTW you seem fine with a bunch of white men in Indianapolis dictating what UND does...

Well 7&7 started by saying the issue should have been resoved by UND and the Spirit Lake, leaving Standing Rock out of it with no explanation given as to why, I'm still asking why you, or he, should get to decide that. If UND wants to withdraw from the voluntary assoication, have at it. Otherwise abide by the rules of said association. If you don't like the leaders of the association, vote them out.