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UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
People have it all wrong.
Captain positions are about leadership and character. Yes some of our best players fit the criteria. Most of you know nothing about either Chanter or Tirone, so please stop talking out your derriere and try to find out why the players and coaches felt it important they were C and A respectively. If you were at the banquet it was very easy to see why they were chosen. I know many of you have your mind made up but look at captains on many teams and they are character guys even if they are on fourth line or third pairing. Sometimes the star players are not great leaders and do not put in the time to serve others and society. That is not to say that many stars can do this but you really are barking up the wrong tree and have been for the past few years. Norm Bazin had 68 pts in hockey east when it was much more offensive minded than today. Was he their best player? Was he and is he a great leader? Stop beating up players and work on your own issues as there is no sane person on earth that would ever give most of you a D1 job as a hockey coach under any circumstances. I know this is a fan board so please act like fans and stop predicting what will happen 6 months from now. I do not know who is going to be on whatever line and I do know that they want outlet passes from the shooting side for defensemen on UNH. Yes we have to take what we have (7 left shot and 3 right shots) and the best 6 will be playing regularly by mid to late October. The best players will be playing and 3 freshmen will likely be playing every night on the defensive pairings.
I hope you all enjoy the day and hope you have a great offseason.
People have it all wrong.
Captain positions are about leadership and character. Yes some of our best players fit the criteria. Most of you know nothing about either Chanter or Tirone, so please stop talking out your derriere and try to find out why the players and coaches felt it important they were C and A respectively. If you were at the banquet it was very easy to see why they were chosen. I know many of you have your mind made up but look at captains on many teams and they are character guys even if they are on fourth line or third pairing. Sometimes the star players are not great leaders and do not put in the time to serve others and society. That is not to say that many stars can do this but you really are barking up the wrong tree and have been for the past few years. Norm Bazin had 68 pts in hockey east when it was much more offensive minded than today. Was he their best player? Was he and is he a great leader? Stop beating up players and work on your own issues as there is no sane person on earth that would ever give most of you a D1 job as a hockey coach under any circumstances. I know this is a fan board so please act like fans and stop predicting what will happen 6 months from now. I do not know who is going to be on whatever line and I do know that they want outlet passes from the shooting side for defensemen on UNH. Yes we have to take what we have (7 left shot and 3 right shots) and the best 6 will be playing regularly by mid to late October. The best players will be playing and 3 freshmen will likely be playing every night on the defensive pairings.
I hope you all enjoy the day and hope you have a great offseason.
No, I'll be more clear - I think Miller should be playing. He has 127 games of JR experience (Maass has 26) and was picked up by the best coach and talent evaluator in the BCHL for this season. He has played a lot of top-four minutes on the likely BCHL championship team whose other D are committed to Denver, North Dakota, Michigan, Minnesota, Michigan Tech and Cornell.
Maass, Gildon and Miller should all be in the line-up every night because I believe they are among both the best six today AND tomorrow...
All three will not play. The research I did last night that showed NO junior or senior defended has sat aside from injury since Hutchins is real. Dawson will play. You know what I think about deferrals and competition - but we're not having a conversation about my opinions. If Dick has made up his mind - as he very often does (and as so many here who are close to the program seem to already have) - then Miller would be better off skating every night in the BCHL.
He's not a flight risk - they can dust off their new compliance manipulation trick and send him back signed anyway. At 'his' discretion of course. Just like they did to a much more talented Blackburn to play replacement level upperclassmen...
Regardless - if one of those three FR sit - don't be surprised if it's the tall, raw one with just 26 games of experience above HS hockey. He should be playing. No question IMO. But that's a recipe for ups and downs, and we know how DU feels about that - just be dependable and consistent, even if it's all down...
I'm fine with Chanter getting the C. I've always wanted him to play more. But the coaches have always preferred Dawson to him, they'll both play.
I have a bigger problem with Tirone getting the A. I had held outhope that Robinson would get a fair shake to compete where Clark never did. Although, I am not in love with him either, he will likely be not only youngest goalie on the roster but the most talented. The A seals it. With the evidence of trusting Tirone to a fault in place AND a letter, I will be shocked if Robinson plays more than 5 games next season. He should be playing at least half - once again based on today AND tomorrow. And until they get another goalie he is their only goalie for 2018-2020...
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Brady was a sixth round, second year player who sat one year behind the best QB in NE Patriots history. Everyone thought he was a nobody - hence his sixth round selection. Nick Nonis coming out of nowhere to be the team's #1 defender would be a more apt comparison. No one on this team is Drew Bledsoe at their position. There was also no four-year cap on Brady's career...
Saviano developed in practice - playing in only 16 games - while upperclass J. Haydar, CJ Ficek and J. Rogers played 39 each and the team posted its worst record of the 99-03 era at 21-12-8 and scored just 122 goals (as opposed to 184 the following year). Saviano should have been playing. He was better than those who were AND more ice time probably allows him to develop sooner - before the end of the season.
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The point is - all signs indicate more of the same. Better young players sitting - whether it's Maass or Miller next to Robinson - while upperclassmen who have shown little play.
We share the same opinion - I think you're viewing it through what you think should happen (re - Dawson) and I'm viewing it through what I expect to happen based on an extended track record. If I'm right - rebuild takes longer. That's why development matters just as much as the FR being better today...
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Wow - Impressive how you over simplify one conversation and ignore the other all at once. Everyone here understands that talent and leadership don't go hand in hand. Absolutely NO ONE has a problem with the captains not being stars.
What people have had a problem with in the past - is a player who shouldn't even have been in the regular line-up getting a C and being placed on the first line and PP unit as a result.
The reality for Chanter is he was always going to play - and should in my opinion - on the third pair. I'm completely ok with him as captain. But there is zero question that a C seals his place in the line-up and creates a slimmer window for three FR D to play. Even on a part time basis. That's a legitimate conversation even if you don't enjoy it. And I say that as one of Chanters most vocal fans on this board for years.
I'm not sure how you can question people wondering if the best players will play with a straight face. It has never been that straight forward with Umile and it IS one of the biggest reasons why recruiting went of a cliff. We need look no further than Salvaggio and McNicholas to know being better doesn't get you into the line-up or your deserved role as a FR or SO...
Tirone getting the A is a problem - I don't care how hard he works or that he stayed in the UML game to take a beating. He's not very good, has never been held accountable for his performance and certainly won't now thy he is not only an A but the only A. He should be forced to compete for the job - the letter ensures he won't have to (and should he play poorly - will never fully lose it)...
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HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
Mike I wish I had the NHL network would've loved to have seen him play! Guess I'll have to wait til October and it can't come fast enough
....(just don't rush my summer vacation)
Mike I wish I had the NHL network would've loved to have seen him play! Guess I'll have to wait til October and it can't come fast enough
....(just don't rush my summer vacation)Dan and I are on the same page with regards to the ramifications of Chanter's captaincy on next year's team, and the very strong likelihood that this will come at the expense of development of at least two of the incoming frosh d-men. Interesting that a guy who was recruited WAY ahead of Souza's time (Chanter) has been basically dragged off the emergency d-man scrap heap he occupied for his first two seasons, and is now going to captain next year's team. This bodes well for Nonis in two years' time.
I just edited a few things 'cuz we just don't see Tirone through the same focus ... but all in all, again I'm in agreement with Dan's overall gist. Robinson's long-term development should take precedence over a few more W's this coming season, but it won't. And that's because Coach DOES want to get to the NRN (the series will continue, Snively65) AND even more foolishly seems to believe his team has a 21+ win ceiling next season. Man oh man, do I hope he is right and I am wrong ... but I'll write it here for the first of what will likely be many times, IF next year's UNH team gets to the magic number (that's 14 - not 21), they're not going to get there until late February. It took winning the MBPBEGAM round to get to 14 last season (ultimately 15), or else this wouldn't even be a discussion (and in retrospect *may* have talked BS35+4 from buying out Coach's last year).
As to C-H-C's last comments, I'll respectfully disagree. The MacDonald decision was an unmitigated disaster, and now the Chanter decision is very likely to follow suit. That's not the fault of the kids - I have a ton of respect for both guys, but players who are on the fringes of the team that takes to the ice, and are not factors in some way in your team's biggest on-ice situations really do not warrant full captaincy. And being able to talk to the press effectively is an unbelievably craptastic reason to justify a poor decision.
I think someone mentioned that Cleland was "unexpected" last season, and yeah, maybe many of us were surprised he was the lone "C" ... but the kid was taking a regular shift since his frosh season, and had moved up the depth chart steadily throughout his UNH career. There's absolutely zero comparison with Chanter (or CMacD).
Pat Foley was arguably a 3rd line slug for most of his UNH career, but he too was getting regular ice from the start, and he set a physical tone for a very talented team that had always BADLY needed that kind of tone. He never piled up the points, but it was easy to see why he wore a letter for his last three seasons in Durham.
To the extent that Souza was Chanter's position coach, and may have vouched for his selection, then I'll lay this one at his door instead of Coach Umile's.
IIRC, Patrick Foley was a 4.0 student all four years. And, my recollection is that he toiled on the fourth line for most of his career, which is another reason why those teams in the early '00's were so deep and good. Foley played 30 games as a freshman, and finished his career with 47 points, despite seeing very little time on the top three lines or the PP. I do not see Collin MacDonald or Dylan Chanter in the same light, but hoping for the best with Dylan as C and DT as A.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
I think it's safe to say that the discussions on here over the last 24+ hours have crystalized the issues which I felt should have led BS35+4 to make the big boy decision to buy out Coach's final year, and just start the Souza era a year earlier than planned. It's abundantly clear we've got one more year (at least) of same old, same old to put up with. And that's really very disappointing to those of us who have yearned for a fresh start sooner rather than later.
Hey - at least if Souza was making these mistakes on his own, we could chalk it up to experience, etc. Now we're left to deal with the chronic stubbornness of "Anchor" (copyright 'Watcher 2017). At least there is the glimmer of hope from the last few months of Souza's recruiting efforts. I can't help but think most on board here would be very willing to cut Souza some slack this coming season if he were put in charge, took a step back to get his promising guys out on the ice with the best of what's left, and set things up for the future.
As it is, 2017/2018 will be All About Dick and His Pursuit of the NRN, and finding a way to grind out 14 W's with a team that's averaged 13 wins during the first two years of the *genius* 3 year masterplan.
If you didn't believe it before, believe it now. 'Cuz that's our reality for the next 10-11 months ...
I think it's safe to say that the discussions on here over the last 24+ hours have crystalized the issues which I felt should have led BS35+4 to make the big boy decision to buy out Coach's final year, and just start the Souza era a year earlier than planned. It's abundantly clear we've got one more year (at least) of same old, same old to put up with. And that's really very disappointing to those of us who have yearned for a fresh start sooner rather than later.
Hey - at least if Souza was making these mistakes on his own, we could chalk it up to experience, etc. Now we're left to deal with the chronic stubbornness of "Anchor" (copyright 'Watcher 2017). At least there is the glimmer of hope from the last few months of Souza's recruiting efforts. I can't help but think most on board here would be very willing to cut Souza some slack this coming season if he were put in charge, took a step back to get his promising guys out on the ice with the best of what's left, and set things up for the future.
As it is, 2017/2018 will be All About Dick and His Pursuit of the NRN, and finding a way to grind out 14 W's with a team that's averaged 13 wins during the first two years of the *genius* 3 year masterplan.
If you didn't believe it before, believe it now. 'Cuz that's our reality for the next 10-11 months ...
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
I couldnt agree more. Granted we arent in the lockerroom and dont have first hand knowledge of the leadership behind the scenes but NO WAY do you make a average/below average goaltender an assistant captain. Some goaltenders are leaders and some are elite caliber no brainer #1 goalies who are going to play day in and day out - they deserve a captaincy - see Cal Peterson. Tirone isnt near that caliber and based on statistical evidence that position (goalie) should be a competition. Handing him a captaincy basically eliminates that competition. Unacceptable.
I couldnt agree more. Granted we arent in the lockerroom and dont have first hand knowledge of the leadership behind the scenes but NO WAY do you make a average/below average goaltender an assistant captain. Some goaltenders are leaders and some are elite caliber no brainer #1 goalies who are going to play day in and day out - they deserve a captaincy - see Cal Peterson. Tirone isnt near that caliber and based on statistical evidence that position (goalie) should be a competition. Handing him a captaincy basically eliminates that competition. Unacceptable.
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Wow, anger at the Anchor rising.
Next year is what it is. Much of that is already baked in by the personnel.
Anchor's fiddling with the deck chairs doesn't upset me, because it's impact will be gone by March 5, 2018 (amen!)
If you want to get upset, the real issue is Souza does not have his staff in place, and they are handicapped for one year of recruiting. Are they bringing in two new assistants, or just one? Will one be a goalie coach (Ayers) or will it be a volunteer (Buckley)? Will one have connections to USA hockey? To the BCHL? Will one be a defenseman?
Those are the major program impacts that are being handicapped. Who gets to skate up to the ref to find out why the faceoff is in the neurtral zone rather than at the dot doesn't concern me.
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E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
I love this opening! What an absolute, complete dou…
Are you talking about captains at UNH or captains on most other hockey teams on the planet? Here’s a list of NHL captains https://en.wikipedia Please feel free to tell us which ones on that list aren’t among the 3 or 4 most talented players on their team. You may find a couple, I didn’t dig in too deep but at a glance, good luck finding many more than that. Even then, at most you might find older guys who were the best on their team when they were named captains but have gotten older – obviously not a relevant scenario in college hockey. Talent. You lead a team by producing on the ice. What you do off the ice is great, and counts, but you can’t lead a hockey team if can’t contribute on the ice, that’s the first thing other players respect – not how well you talk with the press or how much money you raised for ORYHA.
Such as?
Nice to see you closing on the same condescending, arrogant tone you opened with. Apologies for not rolling over and peeing on ourselves at the wonder that is the current state of UNH hockey. Who are we to question the well-oiled machine they have cranking away up there in Durham. All is wonderful, nothing even remotely to be questioned here, clearly we don’t know enough about hockey to see how wonderful things are. Just sit back and try to learn a little bit about hockey so that we can enjoy those 10th place finishes like we should.
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Ned Braden
Federal League All-Star
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
Ugggh. If there's one thing I hate more than people calling an alternate captain "assistant" captain, it's goalies wearing a captaincy letter. We never seem to do too well on this board predicting the next season's captains (I gave that up w/my season tix), but one prediction is easy to nail: UNH will do something weird. At least it wasn't the back-up goalie that got the 'A' this year.
Ugggh. If there's one thing I hate more than people calling an alternate captain "assistant" captain, it's goalies wearing a captaincy letter. We never seem to do too well on this board predicting the next season's captains (I gave that up w/my season tix), but one prediction is easy to nail: UNH will do something weird. At least it wasn't the back-up goalie that got the 'A' this year.
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E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
UNH Hockey 2017/18 - All About Dick
If that's not the title of next season's thread...
UNH Hockey 2017/18 - All About Dick
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
Semantics. Assistant or alternate. Behind the scenes the "A" is assisting the captain with all the responsibilities. Forward or Winger? Goalie or goalkeeper? Coach or Manager? Defenseman or defenceman.
Semantics. Assistant or alternate. Behind the scenes the "A" is assisting the captain with all the responsibilities. Forward or Winger? Goalie or goalkeeper? Coach or Manager? Defenseman or defenceman.
E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
No, it's alternate. It's always been alternate. Or maybe it's the Adjutant Captain? And the rest of your examples are pretty foolish, too, especially those last two, Dick Umile is the Manager of the UNH hockey team? And that last one, you do understand that Canadians and Americans spell some words - centre/center - a little differently but they're the same word, right?
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
My point is there is bigger issues to fry then someone incorrectly using assistant vs alternate captain. Hockey team or hockey club?
My point is there is bigger issues to fry then someone incorrectly using assistant vs alternate captain. Hockey team or hockey club?
Ned Braden
Federal League All-Star
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
Noted. I'll only fry important issues from now on.
Noted. I'll only fry important issues from now on.
I always say assistant - because I agree that alternate implies they have no responsibilities unless the captain is missing. Getting an A is every bit the bestowing of leadership responsibilities.
More importantly, I think it is a lame pet peeve and if I can twist that knife I'll do it as often as possible.
That said, I don't like that Tirone was named an assistant captain. I think there were better choices for assistant captain. I worry that his being an assistant captain will eliminate any semblance of a goalie competition because they'll need him on the ice as an assistant captain. There's a reason goalies aren't often named assistant captains. Assistant captains should be skaters and/or consistent quality contributors in whatever role they have. Those are just my thoughts on assistant captains - and Tirone being named an assistant captain...
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HockeyRef
Well-known member
Oops I guess that's my bad on the term but I imagine I've said a lot worse on this board....
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question
"All politics is local."(Tip O'Neil)
Captains and ALTERNATE Captains, voted on by the players, is usually a popularity contest (doesnt apply to the pro level) IMHO! The real leaders emerge on the ice through the course of the season ie. Kelleher and Salvaggio last year. Clearly Cleland was a leader on the ice and was a great choice but so were the aforementioned Kelleher and Salvaggio as demonstrated by their performance on the ice.
"All politics is local."(Tip O'Neil)
Captains and ALTERNATE Captains, voted on by the players, is usually a popularity contest (doesnt apply to the pro level) IMHO! The real leaders emerge on the ice through the course of the season ie. Kelleher and Salvaggio last year. Clearly Cleland was a leader on the ice and was a great choice but so were the aforementioned Kelleher and Salvaggio as demonstrated by their performance on the ice.
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