UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

[Greg Ambrose]

Well Snively, there's our answer on talented FR playing ahead of those two...

Gotta get worse before you can better. Charlie Holt's last year UNH won five games. That was the second year of Hockey East which included the interlocking schedule with the WCHA. There were no cupcake OOC games. Do we agree that they will win more than five? If so, how many over? Do they win ten, can they win 15? 2017-2018 is going to be a . . . pick the word.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

You guys are so funny getting all worked up about this stuff. Chanter has persevered to carve out a role.
More importantly, ref, any recruiting news at the dinner?

 

[HockeyRef]

You guys are so funny getting all worked up about this stuff. Chanter has persevered to carve out a role.
More importantly, ref, any recruiting news at the dinner?

Not that I heard? Lots of accolades coming from Coach about the work MS and Stewie have been doing on that front.
....and while Chanter was not on my radar per se I agree with your opinion.

 

[deltabravo62]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Today I learned that the goalie scenario is completely sealed before Mike Robinson even shows up on campus. Not that anyone is really surprised.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

The captain played in 37 games last year with a total of 3 points....

... and played a total of thirteen (13) games as a frosh and soph, being outplayed for playing time by classmates named Marks, Boyd and Furgele. And younger guys named Dawson and Wyse have zoomed past him on the depth chart these last two seasons. And if Maller and/or Boyd had remained healthy, Chanter might have struggled to break double figures in games THIS season - his so-called "breakthrough" season.

Chanter as an "A", I guess I could have lived with (although even that seems a stretch, to be fair). Chanter as the "C" is probably at least as curious a choice as CMacD two years ago.

If a player isn't someone you can envision as being out on the ice at the most important parts of the most important games of his team's games, then that's a pretty good indicator you're probably reaching with your choice of captain. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chanter was pretty much a third pairing guy ... and now you're pretty much pushing him to fill a top two pairing assignment. On a depth chart that's soon going to feature Marks, Wyse, Glidon, Maass and Dawson - not to mention Green and Boyd - that's inevitably going to delay a more talented younger player's development at some point.

I give the guy a lot of credit for taking his chance this season - just as I did with CMacD for overcoming his horrendous injury - but that's something you give the player a "Most Improved" or "Coaches' Award" for the best comeback, or whatever. You don't hand the guy a "C" just because it makes for a nice story, or he's glib in front of the media.

In the end, Coach Umile could have saved the players from this misguided selection, and he didn't.

So much for hopes that the leopard would be changing his spots on his way out the door ...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Chuck is so close to becoming a Lowell fan.

As in, "WWND?"

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

....and while Chanter was not on my radar per se I agree with your opinion.

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm about 95% sure 'watcher was being sarcastic.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Nope.
The team next year won't rise or fall based on who the Captain is. Right now personnel and coaching is their challenge. Changing their mentality will only occur one the anchor is gone, good captain or not.

 

[Dan]

Nope.
The team next year won't rise or fall based on who the Captain is. Right now personnel and coaching is their challenge. Changing their mentality will only occur one the anchor is gone, good captain or not.

These decisions do effect personnel. Clearly Tirone will be given the goaltender's roll again without a challenge. Clarks situation aside this stalls any potential development for Robinson - who should at least have a chance to compete to see some rubber. Without it can he really be expected to walk right into Souza's first year and deliver?

Knowing now that Chanter is a complete lock to play every night, that means the following spots are spoken for defensively...

Marks
Wyse
Chanter
Dawson

Meaning at most there are two spots for the four FR defenseman depending on what happens with Boyd. At least two of Maass, Miller or Darcy will be sitting every night. That is not what this team needs right now - for its personnel, recruiting pitches or next season...

The biggest problem UNH teams have had recently - in terms of personnel - is they haven't had enough developed talent at once. Why? Because younger talent wasn't given a chance to grow in time to help older talent. Right now if it's even close - the younger kids need to be playing.

Maybe Chanter would be a better player today if he hadn't played only five games two years ago behind weaker players in Furgele or Quast. Perhaps the forward depth would have been better last year of Nazarian, Eiserman, Vela, etc hadn't toiled behind MacDonald et all. Now theyre going to do the same to a couple of this years FR D and Robinson...

Are we going to be cool with this if Gildon, Maass or Miller pull a Foegel bounce to MJ or Quinnipiac after sitting most of 2017-18?

I could care less about the talent of the team leaders - but when the captaincy leads to talented youth seeing limited ice (if any at all) it's a problem. Playing the kids would do better by the team's record also - meaning an easier time on the recruiting trail...

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Fact:
Souza has coached the defensemen during his first two seasons at UNH. Chanter would not be the captain if Souza wasn't in favor.

Barring injury, Gildon is a lock to be in the lineup every single game.

Opinion:
Barring injury, Maass is a lock to be in the lineup in the majority of games.

Beyond Marks, Wyse, and Chanter, I don't assume that any other upperclass defensemen are "guaranteed" ice time every game. Dawson tallied 2 assists in 39 games, was -24, and blocked half as many shots as Chanter (28 vs 54).

Tirone having the 'A' does not guarantee he will be the starting goalie throughout the season. Mike Buckley, who has coached both Tirone and Robinson for several years, will have input into who starts. If Tirone is struggling for some number of games, and either Robinson or Clark are playing extraordinarily well in practice, one of them will get the start.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Fact: Since 2000 (and I didn't go back further) only one recruited (Randall and B. Foley obviously don't count) upperclass defenseman has not been entrenched in the line-up (aside from injury). That would be Michael Hutchins who played in about 50% of the games each year. And I am not certain that he was not injured.

Reality: Chanter was likely to be playing regardless - now it is certain. Dawson has played nearly every game since he arrived. I seriously doubt he now becomes the exception to the upperclass rule. Marks won't be the exception either. Wyse is young and the most talented returning defenseman - he should play every night, but if a D is usurped by a frosh it's probably him.

Gildon being in the line-up every night doesn't solve the problem. It's not about just him. Both Maass and Miller are likely among the top-5 defenders on the team next season. One of them will always be out of the line-up. I would not be so quick to assume Maass will be the better of those two.

And don't forget, the fourth FR D, Darcy was a big recruit at the time of his commitment. It is VERY likely that the six D on any given night are not the six most talented or effective. It is essentially a given that those six will not provide the best alternative for the program's future...

Quite frankly, if the coaches are already assured that Maass will play ahead of Miller they should leave Miller in Penticton.

Fact: Tirone has struggled immensely and consistently over the past two seasons and his regular PT has never been threatened. He had his fair share of struggles as a FR too, before his memorable stretch against some of the worst offenses in DI hockey.

Opinion: As a sophomore Clark would have been given the opportunity only until one avg-bad performance put him back where they want him.

Reality: Tirone has never been threatened before - he's not going to be threatened as a senior AND a captain. They hate Clark. Robinson is likely to be raw enough that he does not pose a Casey DeSmith threat (as in so apparent even Umile cannot ignore it) and Tirone will make enough flashy saves and avoid going full-Digi. But Robinson is the only future they have until Commesso and that takes precedent over trying to squeeze a couple wins out of 2017-18 (when they'll be well under .500 either way). To everyone by Dick at least...

 

[NCAA watcher]

Reality: Chanter was likely to be playing regardless - now it is certain. Dawson has played nearly every game since he arrived. I seriously doubt he now becomes the exception to the upperclass rule.

I side with C-H-C. He had a bad year, and his skillset of an undersized finese puck mover is not the flavor of the day. His role dropped steadily last year. Hopefully he grabs the challenge and gets into the lineup every day, but I would not view it assured.

Marks won't be the exception either. Wyse is young and the most talented returning defenseman - he should play every night, but if a D is usurped by a frosh it's probably him.

Wyse is one of Mike's boys. Big, and though limited, like Chanter (big and more limited) will be in the lineup. We've heard enough from Mike's surrogates on this board that he is building "from the back out" with defensemen who have size. Skill is far secondary. (Not sure why Bahn was one of his first recruits... hopefully a sign Mike's outlook is not completely one-sided.)

Gildon being in the line-up every night doesn't solve the problem. It's not about just him. Both Maass and Miller are likely among the top-5 defenders on the team next season. One of them will always be out of the line-up. I would not be so quick to assume Maass will be the better of those two.
Quite frankly, if the coaches are already assured that Maass will play ahead of Miller they should leave Miller in Penticton.

Having seen only highlights from those two, invariably offensive, Maass is ahead of Miller. How they do in the Dzone will determine this, but I would expect Maass to be a regular top 4 D. Miller should be in a fight with Dawson for a spot.

Wait, are you proposing deferring a kid? If they have the money, and they do, they should let him come and fight for a role, leading to competition.

One other factor, both Gildon and Miller, though left shots, seem to play on the right side. Maass is also a righty (though he flips on pp). Marks and Chanter are righties. Most programs have a hard time finding right side guys, UNH will have a shortage on the left, unless Gildon/Miller can play left, too. That gives Dawson a bit of an advantage.
Right...........Left
Fr.Gildon (ls)....So.Wyse
Sr.Marks.........Jr.Dawson
Fr.Maass.........Fr.Darcy
Sr.Chanter.......So.Nonis
Fr.Miller (ls)....

So
Gildon/Wyse
Marks/Maass
Chanter/Dawson or Miller
Nonis and Darcy

And don't forget, the fourth FR D, Darcy was a big recruit at the time of his commitment.

I suspect they have forgotten. 5'11 and from the old administration.

But Robinson is the only future they have until Commesso and that takes precedent over trying to squeeze a couple wins out of 2017-18 (when they'll be well under .500 either way).

Well, Robinson can't be the ONLY future. As discussed, they need a non Lazzaro backup for 18-20. The question is how much they invest. As you note, planning around a HS freshman who may or may not ever show up is a fools' errand. No way Mike takes that risk on his first two years. Maybe they take a 21 year old with only three years eligibility, to minimize the overlap? Though, limiting it that way, instead of best player available, seems bad policy. I'm curious about DeltaBravo's comment, as I don't understand it.


Finally, if Chanter gets hurt, I assume they get a new captain, otherwise Tirone would have to play every game.

 

[deltabravo62]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I'm curious about DeltaBravo's comment, as I don't understand it.

Clarification, the goaltending situation for this season is already settled, no competition.

 

[Snively65]

Regressed back to two years ago; I guess that Dick does not care about the NRN after all.

As I wrote yesterday, Dick apparently does not care about the NRN, as we were led to believe last season. So, Chuck will need to come up with a new theme for his weekly WIS column.

 

[Darius]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I'm cool with Chanter. He doesn't mind hitting people, which is why I liked Salvaggio. Cleland was a surprise last year and that turned out well.

In general I am not in favor of goal tenders wearing the C or A. Google "hockey goalie why not captain?". The thing about captains is we don't know personalities, see what goes on in practice, in the locker room, off the ice. Maybe for DT this is a confidence builder? Still...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I'm cool with Chanter. He doesn't mind hitting people, which is why I liked Salvaggio. Cleland was a surprise last year and that turned out well.

In general I am not in favor of goal tenders wearing the C or A. Google "hockey goalie why not captain?". The thing about captains is we don't know personalities, see what goes on in practice, in the locker room, off the ice. Maybe for DT this is a confidence builder? Still...

Feel the basic same sentiments Darius. One thing I want to add to all of this is some insight; DU applauds DT's work ethic. He's said he is the most prepared player on the ice game in and game out. That's no secret if you read the sports page. I suspect/speculate he feels that will be a big plus coming in for next year...a 'role model' for what needs to happen out there. Now I'm not saying DT is Ty Conklin (give me some credit here...) but I am really feeling that's the reason he's wearing the A. Also, he (DT) will most likely be on the ice 99.99 percent of the time in the event Chanter is not. This of course is assuming that Coach picks the captains, or has a big hand in that selection. I have no clue how it's done but my feeling is that DT is getting rewarded for that work ethic.

Second; while there is past precedence for upper classman to play; I think Souza is in charge more than we might give him credit for. I cannot imagine how and why given the adjustments we are going to have to make with the loss of TyK and Cleland, the UNH coaching staff will play "upperclassman favorites" and sit the incoming D especially. All of the Seniors had nothing but great things to say about him last night; it's obvious he's asserting himself more and more.

I think this will shake out and you can feel free to call me out on it if we get 5-6 games into the season. Gildon / Maass will play; there is no doubt just like there is no doubt DT will be the main one between the pipes. "Don't let your own self interests come ahead of the team's best interests" was Captain Cleland's parting message to the team; let's hope that plays out.

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

The thing about captains is we don't know personalities, see what goes on in practice, in the locker room, off the ice.

Exactly. These factors primarily determine who gets selected as captain. It also explains why some selections (e.g., Collin MacDonald, Dylan Chanter) don't make sense to some fans.

One other selection criteria is poise and ability to speak for the team in front of the "press". While Chanter may come across as "glib" to some, he is articulate and personable. Toward the end of this season, there was a clue that he was under consideration for the captaincy. He started to show up in the post game press events to answer questions about the team's win or loss and in midweek pressers to discuss the opponents for the upcoming weekend games.

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Wyse is one of Mike's boys. Big, and though limited, like Chanter (big and more limited) will be in the lineup. We've heard enough from Mike's surrogates on this board that he is building "from the back out" with defensemen who have size. Skill is far secondary. (Not sure why Bahn was one of his first recruits... hopefully a sign Mike's outlook is not completely one-sided.)

Souza et al want defensemen who can stop the opponent's offensive flow, gain control of the puck below the faceoff circles, and make the quick, accurate first pass out of the defensive zone. Those are Gildon's, Wyse's and Chanter's strengths. At the same time, Marks, Maass, Gildon, and Wyse have enough speed and puck handling ability to carry the puck out of the defensive zone from time-to-time.

One other factor, both Gildon and Miller, though left shots, seem to play on the right side. Maass is also a righty (though he flips on pp). Marks and Chanter are righties. Most programs have a hard time finding right side guys, UNH will have a shortage on the left, unless Gildon/Miller can play left, too.

Gildon's NTDP U18 team was a little top heavy with left-shot defensemen so he primarily played right defense. I anticipate he'll play left and right defense when UNH is at full strength and primarily right defense on the power play. As you have pointed out, his forte on the power play is the slap shot from the right faceoff circle.

Well, Robinson can't be the ONLY future. As discussed, they need a non Lazzaro backup for 18-20. The question is how much they invest. As you note, planning around a HS freshman who may or may not ever show up is a fools' errand. No way Mike takes that risk on his first two years. Maybe they take a 21 year old with only three years eligibility, to minimize the overlap? Though, limiting it that way, instead of best player available, seems bad policy.

Agreed on the need for another skilled goalie for 2018. Since Drew Commesso committed to UNH, he has actively retweeted UNH hockey related tweets. He appears to be genuinely enthused about the team that is being built for 2020.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Fact: Since 2000 (and I didn't go back further) only one recruited (Randall and B. Foley obviously don't count) upperclass defenseman has not been entrenched in the line-up (aside from injury). That would be Michael Hutchins who played in about 50% of the games each year. And I am not certain that he was not injured.

Reality: Chanter was likely to be playing regardless - now it is certain. Dawson has played nearly every game since he arrived. I seriously doubt he now becomes the exception to the upperclass rule. Marks won't be the exception either. Wyse is young and the most talented returning defenseman - he should play every night, but if a D is usurped by a frosh it's probably him.

Gildon being in the line-up every night doesn't solve the problem. It's not about just him. Both Maass and Miller are likely among the top-5 defenders on the team next season. One of them will always be out of the line-up. I would not be so quick to assume Maass will be the better of those two.

And don't forget, the fourth FR D, Darcy was a big recruit at the time of his commitment. It is VERY likely that the six D on any given night are not the six most talented or effective. It is essentially a given that those six will not provide the best alternative for the program's future...

Quite frankly, if the coaches are already assured that Maass will play ahead of Miller they should leave Miller in Penticton.

Dan and I are on the same page with regards to the ramifications of Chanter's captaincy on next year's team, and the very strong likelihood that this will come at the expense of development of at least two of the incoming frosh d-men. Interesting that a guy who was recruited WAY ahead of Souza's time (Chanter) has been basically dragged off the emergency d-man scrap heap he occupied for his first two seasons, and is now going to captain next year's team. This bodes well for Nonis in two years' time.

Fact: Tirone has struggled (at times) over the past two seasons and his regular PT has never been threatened. He had his fair share of struggles as a FR too, before his memorable stretch against some of the worst offenses in DI hockey.

Opinion: As a sophomore Clark would have been given the opportunity only until one avg-bad performance put him back where they want him.

Reality: Tirone has never been threatened before - he's not going to be threatened as a senior AND a captain. They have not been impressed by Clark. Robinson is likely to be raw enough that he does not pose a Casey DeSmith threat (as in so apparent even Umile cannot ignore it) and Tirone will make enough flashy saves and avoid going full-Digi. But Robinson is the only future they have until Commesso and that takes precedent over trying to squeeze a couple wins out of 2017-18 (when they'll be well under .500 either way). To everyone but Dick at least...

I just edited a few things 'cuz we just don't see Tirone through the same focus ... but all in all, again I'm in agreement with Dan's overall gist. Robinson's long-term development should take precedence over a few more W's this coming season, but it won't. And that's because Coach DOES want to get to the NRN (the series will continue, Snively65 ) AND even more foolishly seems to believe his team has a 21+ win ceiling next season. Man oh man, do I hope he is right and I am wrong ... but I'll write it here for the first of what will likely be many times, IF next year's UNH team gets to the magic number (that's 14 - not 21), they're not going to get there until late February. It took winning the MBPBEGAM round to get to 14 last season (ultimately 15), or else this wouldn't even be a discussion (and in retrospect *may* have talked BS35+4 from buying out Coach's last year).

As to C-H-C's last comments, I'll respectfully disagree. The MacDonald decision was an unmitigated disaster, and now the Chanter decision is very likely to follow suit. That's not the fault of the kids - I have a ton of respect for both guys, but players who are on the fringes of the team that takes to the ice, and are not factors in some way in your team's biggest on-ice situations really do not warrant full captaincy. And being able to talk to the press effectively is an unbelievably craptastic reason to justify a poor decision.

I think someone mentioned that Cleland was "unexpected" last season, and yeah, maybe many of us were surprised he was the lone "C" ... but the kid was taking a regular shift since his frosh season, and had moved up the depth chart steadily throughout his UNH career. There's absolutely zero comparison with Chanter (or CMacD).

Pat Foley was arguably a 3rd line slug for most of his UNH career, but he too was getting regular ice from the start, and he set a physical tone for a very talented team that had always BADLY needed that kind of tone. He never piled up the points, but it was easy to see why he wore a letter for his last three seasons in Durham.

To the extent that Souza was Chanter's position coach, and may have vouched for his selection, then I'll lay this one at his door instead of Coach Umile's.

 

[NCAA watcher]

I think Chuck and Dan are confusing "devlopment" and immediate playing time.

The problem with the Anchor's preference system was not that it stiffled a freshman's development, it was that the freshman was ready by most objective standards, but kept in a limited role.

I'm OK with Miller playing 16 games out of 38 as a freshman, and otherwise developing during practices. I would have an issue if he plays better than Chanter or Marks, but doesn't see ice time. (Foegele syndrom). To wave the red meat to the crowd, was Brady stiffled by sitting his first year at NE? More realistically, Saviano only played 16 games, with 2 points, as a frosh. His development was not stifled. He was 5'6 and had to learn how his game translated to college. Much like Fregona.

Now, if Sacco or Nonis see the ice, I'll lead the charge to throw the Anchor overboard.