UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I am surprised that you would dismiss the 1997-1998 team, our first to reach a FF since 1982. Besides having four high-scoring forwards on that team (Krog, Bekar, Nolan, and Mowers), the team had Jayme Filipowicz (31 points) on the blue line, and five other D-men (Bragnalo, Lind, Enders, O'Brien, and White) who were solid, along with a fine goalie in Sean Matile. Souza had 25 points that sophomore season also, and got the assist for Mowers' goal that beat BU 4-3 in OT, which sent UNH to the FF from the Northeast Regionals. UNH simply could not get anything by Marty Turco in that Semi's game, which is too bad, as a UNH-BC NC game that season would have been one for the ages, like the NC game the next year (BC had won the HEA regular season and tourney, IIRC).

I don't dismiss 1997-1998 team it was the last year of full speed ahead, flying offense and they won games 10-1. That team was a blast to watch with 2 60 plus point scorers and 2 50 plus point scorers leading the way. In comparison only 11 players made 50+ points this year in all of D-I Hockey. The end of that season was forgetful and most tend to... It is back far enough that USCHO nor Hockey East have the schedule and results posted. That team went into a tail spin and lost something like 7 of 9 down the stretch including getting bounced in the first round in Durham of Hockey East tournament. There Achilles heal was playing a trapping defense, I recall Umass started the stretch trapping there way to two wins... all the Hockey East losses coming against a neutral zone trap they couldn't beat. With the offense attaching the D was very open to a traps counter attack. With their record in the last 16 so bad many didn't believe they would make the NCAAs and just made it. The games that year were in Albany and it was very warm and the ice was soft. People I knew couldn't believe I went to Albany, I went with an eye patch after an emergency room visit the night before for a metal chip in/on my eye... Wisconsin was stupid enough to be the first team in ~10 games to try and skate with that crew - it worked in the first period when Wisco was up 3-1 before getting there doors blown of 7-4. I didn't think with the soft ice UNH had a prayer against a rested BU... BU didn't really strangle them with D and UNH won in overtime on a short handed goal. I will for ever credit the large BC contingent that cheered and cheered (for UNH) against BU for providing some energy to that UNH team on the ice.

4.28 GPG even with that terrible closing stretch against trapping teams...
2.57 GA
1.71 differential

I was in Boston... Michigan completely shut them down. I got really sick during the BC-Michigan championship game, diagnosed with mono the next week, it was a bad month for me... I will forever believe that lesson of a Michigan team that could score and play defense forever changed UNH. The teams after 98-99 to 2007-08 were more defensively sound and as such had much better goaltending.

I offer 98-99 as comparison
4.14 GPG
2.19 GA
1.95 differential

The change may seem slight but the work in the d-zone to get from 2.57 to 2.19 is significant.

 

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I said Orono. But Durham isn't exactly Boston or Denver or South Bend, either. You can't hop on a subway and go to a million restaurants, clubs concerts, the beach (or whatever else kids do these days), etc.

Durham isn't in a city... Portsmouth is close, really fun and a bus ride, hence why it is full of college aged people all the time. Many students that can afford it live close to Portsmouth. Amtrak stops on campus and it is not a long ride to Boston. Durham is not exactly an isolated outpost...

Northeastern and BU don't exactly have campus - it is intertwined in the City. Some kids like that. Others want a campus situation. That is something a really good recruiter figures out early.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Huh? Don't know where this "UNH never went after top kids" narrative comes from. Its false. Collins was the highest recruited Mass kid, and Souza was a hot prospect. Saviano was a bit underrated, but even BU wanted him as a gateway to Collins.Souza was a member of the USA Select 17 team, and committed the second day of the recruiting season (back when they had that)

The story on Collins that I always heard was that he was undecided between BU, BC, and UNH but when he heard that UNH had landed Eddie Caron, he jumped on board. I always thought that period, 2001 or so, was the peak of interest in UNH. McCloskey moved a couple of years later and the rest is history.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

That old saying goes double for UNHs recent recruiting efforts. I think it goes without saying that I lean more towards Watcher and the idea that UNH (with the right recruiter) can compete for any dang kid they choose...

I KNOW they can, because they Have.

I was down on the Souza hire - I am more hopeful now that commits like Commesso and Gildon are an indication he truly believes UNH can. But I agree that the message needs to be more of a determined, "We are going to win. Period. Come be the kid who puts us back on top. This trains leaving, get on board!"

Recruits love that - hearing about how they'll be used and how they will make notable impacts.

I need to see a lot more before I buy in completely...

---

As for next season - I hope you're right, but they will need an unusual amount of players to make immediate impacts or big jumps to get to 20. I think it's more likely some leaps happen, but not enough. UNHs top talent levels have been so unbalanced lately. They've had plenty of good players lately, but the next wave was too far behind. I think UNHs path back takes a little more time and requires more grabs like Gildon to ensure a talent balance...

To win 20 next year they'll need Salvaggio and McNicholas to not miss a beat without TK. They'll need Vela and Nazarian to join them. Blackburn and Grasso will have to make Trevor Smith type sophomore jumps. All of this just to match the offensive output they turned in the past two seasons.

The FR defenseman will need to play like upperclassmen and recognize their talent immediately. Team defense and goaltending will need to improve dramatically.

It's possible, but would be a pleasant surprise. I think Souza needs to really hammer home culture and process next year. In grain doing things the right way, even if it leads to losses. When UNH does have that mature balance of talent, hopefully that culture and belief is instilled. Then the team is ready. Assuming they have the outside support...

Dan, no mention of the goalie. Without an upgrade there, what the rest of the roster does is irrelevant. Btw, Glad that you and others have stepped back from the ledge on Souza. Give the guy a chance. It has to be a difficult job recruiting kids to play for a lame duck coach. UNH is not alone, because it seems Michigan has been in the same boat the last couple of years. The coaching turnover this year and, I believe next, is going to change the game dramatically I believe.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Let's get real Sam. Everyone knows that BC, BU, DU, ND, MN, WI and MI are the programs considered a part of the majestic pantheon of college hockey. And personally, those fan bases are welcome to slap their backs sore with pride. Personally, I couldn't give a **** about being in that group. Providence isn't. Yale isn't. Union isn't. Quinipiac isn't. Who cares.

Watchers evidence clearly proves that for a long stretch of time UNH had no problem competing with those programs for top recruits. They can do it again. On the ice, head to head records would indicate that for a long stretch UNH had no problem going toe to toe with any of those teams. As far as an overall recruiting package UNH can offer a heck of an experience comparable to any of those programs.

Great campus, winning and prestigious history, more than fine academic programs, a great facility, a wonderful location, a passionate if slumbering fan base, top athletic billing on campus, a legitimate pathway to the NHL and much more...

The only thing missing has been someone who could paint the picture and sell it.

UNH made 15 NCAA tournaments, four FFs and won seven regular season titles in a 19 year span. With the right coach - perhaps and hopefully Souza - they can get back to competing on a national level annually. Whether that gets them in the 'club'? Who cares...

Like the positive vibe. I would say to Nick that there are 60 schools playing D1 hockey. Not now, but then (say, 1996-2010), UNH was in the upper echelon. Were they, BU, BC, Maine, Michigan, North Dakota, Denver? Well no. But that's 6 schools, 10% of the total. Was UNH in the next 6, top 20%? Well ya. I can see them getting back there, if the head coach sets the tone, hires the right assistants who sell the school and what hockey has meant to it. Given the state of college hockey these days, I really don't think it takes long to get back in the conversation. When you see Yale, Duluth and Union winning national championships while Michigan, Michigan St., Miami and CC, once proud programs, are in the toilet, the possibility is there.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Kids are different today. They are "drawn" by the urban lifestyle. The days of the Saskatchewan farm boy being comfortable in, say, Orono, are over. Technology and social media have changed people and nobody wants to be "stuck" somewhere anymore. It's just the way it is. This is not to refute anything anyone has said, just that it's going to be a little more difficult than it might have even been before. Which is really just reinforcing what you said about getting that "right" recruiting person.

So that's why North Dakota is so successful? Nothin' like the urban life of Grand Forks. Not every kid wants Boston or Denver. If it was so, no one would go to Schenectady or East Lansing.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Dan, no mention of the goalie. Without an upgrade there, what the rest of the roster does is irrelevant. Btw, Glad that you and others have stepped back from the ledge on Souza. Give the guy a chance. It has to be a difficult job recruiting kids to play for a lame duck coach. UNH is not alone, because it seems Michigan has been in the same boat the last couple of years. The coaching turnover this year and, I believe next, is going to change the game dramatically I believe.

Greg - no question, that the goaltending will have to be stout in addition to everything else I mentioned.

I'm not a believer in Tirone. Umile (and the coaches) don't have enough faith in Clark to even give him a chance. Robinson couldn't cut it in the USHL and had to head back East to finish his season. One of them will have to step up, but...

 

[chickod]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

So that's why North Dakota is so successful? Nothin' like the urban life of Grand Forks. Not every kid wants Boston or Denver. If it was so, no one would go to Schenectady or East Lansing.

But that's the point. WE'RE not going to get that kid, and there's a finite number. We're competing for the "rest." My point was that whoever does the best selling job will be the most successful. It's a staple of life...take a guess at which profession has the highest per capita income. Easy right? Doctor...lawyers.... Well guess again. It's SALES. (that's why I don't have a high income )

 

[zoofer]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Just caught up....reading the last 4 pages......love the discussion now,.....btw 1932, while sometimes the events that have occurred over the past 3 years sound and are negatives, I have always been proud of my time on the team, my time on both Friends boards, working with the teams and bleeding blue and white since 1973! Just saying......while beer and wine might boost revenues, I could care less......my point was that when UNH invites it's alumni players back, they shouldn't have to pony up to pay for the game and social after the game!
I agree that UNH should go after any recruit, anywhere.....as I noted, once they see our campus and location to everything, it's up to Souza to sell his program......for me chickod, today's social media and access to the world from a bathroom stall, is all the more reason to live in the "sticks", and be 45 minutes away from what a city can offer for the Arts, ( given that Portsmouth has some 125 restaurants of every culture)......I wholeheartedly agree with Dan about marketing......but in answer to that, look at the university going to a NY firm to come up with a new logo, instead of putting it to the Reknown Whittmore School! That is what they think of themselves......I'm sorry 1932 but here I have to agree with Dan, UNH has to change their thinking......I'm sure Souza will recruit as we all believe he will, the team will get better, maybe not next year but soon so it's up to UNH to invest in personnel now, and not brick......we need to build support programs that provide for better exposure online, (do we even have a video department), more alumni and corporate sponsors and donations, more community outreach with all athletic teams.......maybe the term "culture" is the best way to explain it.........
Also in fairness when we mention promoting UNH hockey and how it is within the top echelon nationally, keep in mind that the last few years volleyball has gone to California for the NCAAs, Swimming and Diving have been great for 5 years at least, track and field has nationally elite athletes and gymnastics makes the NCAAs annually.....so the UNH banner is seen and respected on many athletic fields of endeavor! (just like DU)

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I don't dismiss 1997-1998 team it was the last year of full speed ahead, flying offense and they won games 10-1. That team was a blast to watch with 2 60 plus point scorers and 2 50 plus point scorers leading the way. In comparison only 11 players made 50+ points this year in all of D-I Hockey. The end of that season was forgetful and most tend to... It is back far enough that USCHO nor Hockey East have the schedule and results posted. That team went into a tail spin and lost something like 7 of 9 down the stretch including getting bounced in the first round in Durham of Hockey East tournament. There Achilles heal was playing a trapping defense, I recall Umass started the stretch trapping there way to two wins... all the Hockey East losses coming against a neutral zone trap they couldn't beat. With the offense attaching the D was very open to a traps counter attack. With their record in the last 16 so bad many didn't believe they would make the NCAAs and just made it. The games that year were in Albany and it was very warm and the ice was soft. People I knew couldn't believe I went to Albany, I went with an eye patch after an emergency room visit the night before for a metal chip in/on my eye... Wisconsin was stupid enough to be the first team in ~10 games to try and skate with that crew - it worked in the first period when Wisco was up 3-1 before getting there doors blown of 7-4. I didn't think with the soft ice UNH had a prayer against a rested BU... BU didn't really strangle them with D and UNH won in overtime on a short handed goal. I will for ever credit the large BC contingent that cheered and cheered (for UNH) against BU for providing some energy to that UNH team on the ice.

4.28 GPG even with that terrible closing stretch against trapping teams...
2.57 GA
1.71 differential

I was in Boston... Michigan completely shut them down. I got really sick during the BC-Michigan championship game, diagnosed with mono the next week, it was a bad month for me... I will forever believe that lesson of a Michigan team that could score and play defense forever changed UNH. The teams after 98-99 to 2007-08 were more defensively sound and as such had much better goaltending.

I offer 98-99 as comparison
4.14 GPG
2.19 GA
1.95 differential

The change may seem slight but the work in the d-zone to get from 2.57 to 2.19 is significant.

Nice summary of the 1997-1998 season and comparison with the 1998-1999 season, JB. "I feel your pain," having sat through that Michigan game, so much so that sold my NC game ticket do a BC fan at face value (I would never do that again. ). But, but based on your thesis, what do you make of the 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons? Same goalie in Conklin, but GPG and GA were 3.21 vs 2.76 in 1999-2000 and 3.13 vs 2.21 in 2000-2001, with W-L-T records 23-9-6 and 21-12-6, respectively?

 

[wildcatdc]

So that's why North Dakota is so successful? Nothin' like the urban life of Grand Forks. Not every kid wants Boston or Denver. If it was so, no one would go to Schenectady or East Lansing.

Ahhhhhh, you beat me to it. I was going to say "tell that to the kids in Duluth, Mankato, St. Cloud or Grand Forks."

Many of whom chose those locations over the Twin Cities. Spending half my life out here, I can tell you that they are foregoing a lot to live, study and play in those far-flung places

 

[Dan]

Nice summary of the 1997-1998 season and comparison with the 1998-1999 season, JB. "I feel your pain," having sat through that Michigan game, so much so that sold my NC game ticket do a BC fan at face value (I would never do that again. ). But, but based on your thesis, what do you make of the 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons? Same goalie in Conklin, but GPG and GA were 3.21 vs 2.76 in 1999-2000 and 3.13 vs 2.21 in 2000-2001, with W-L-T records 23-9-6 and 21-12-6, respectively?

It goes without saying, but losing Krog (as well as Filipowicz and O'Brien) had a huge impact on the offense. I'm 1999-00 Haydar and Souza were the only impact F's. The rest of the upper class consisted of hard workers like Sadowski, Shipukski, Swain, Ficek, Rogers and Walsh. The top duo had to carry the day in front of a solid D and a tremendous goalie in Conklin.

Hemingway, Gare, Prudden and Abbott obviously had loads of talent as a class, but they were FR. Matt Dz left after five games for Barrie. But UNH still won as those hard workers could skate with anyone and defend - in addition to chipping in enough offense. It's the depth that's been missing in recent times...

The next year, slightly improved play from the sophomores (especially Hemingway) but no Souza. Haydar was basically on his own.

In 2001-02 with a senior Haydar, a fully developed supporting cast in Hemingway, Gare, Busch, Prudden and Abbott as well as the arrival of Collins and a sophomore surprise from Saviano, the fireworks returned...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I, respectfully, disagree - I believe the step down from stars and kids who chose UNH to landing solid-to-very good talent and becoming a second choice was Borek's inability to keep a good thing going. When he stumbled again - in addition to fumbling away some of his best recruits - we landed where we are today...

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. As a recruiter, Borek simply was no McCloskey. In fairness, not many were.

Let's not forget ... McCloskey at his peak was up against the Walshy/Standbrook juggernaut at UMaine.

UNH's gradual slide away from their apex years coincided directly with McCloskey taking the Women's job.

 

[JB]

Nice summary of the 1997-1998 season and comparison with the 1998-1999 season, JB. "I feel your pain," having sat through that Michigan game, so much so that sold my NC game ticket do a BC fan at face value (I would never do that again. ). But, but based on your thesis, what do you make of the 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons? Same goalie in Conklin, but GPG and GA were 3.21 vs 2.76 in 1999-2000 and 3.13 vs 2.21 in 2000-2001, with W-L-T records 23-9-6 and 21-12-6, respectively?

I still say that 97-98 experience changed UNH's offensive and defensive philosophy. My eyes tell me that, it has been almost 20 years now since we saw the forward criss-cross at the offensive blue line. A staple attack of those pre 97-98 teams.

99-01 there was the forward gap Dan highlights in his post. Just look at the scoring drain. I think the ga jump in 99-00 was the loss of the high end puck moving D men that protected and cleared the zone. 00-01 was growth on the backline (Stafford a sophomore) and was Conklin's best year regardless of stats.

 

[JB]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. As a recruiter, Borek simply was no McCloskey. In fairness, not many were.

Let's not forget ... McCloskey at his peak was up against the Walshy/Standbrook juggernaut at UMaine.

UNH's gradual slide away from their apex years coincided directly with McCloskey taking the Women's job.

It didn't help that after McCloskey UNH essentially abandoned the BCHL. I was told by players something about Durham feels like British Columbia and many of them quickly identified with campus.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I still say that 97-98 experience changed UNH's offensive and defensive philosophy. My eyes tell me that, it has been almost 20 years now since we saw the forward criss-cross at the offensive blue line. A staple attack of those pre 97-98 teams.

99-01 there was the forward gap Dan highlights in his post. Just look at the scoring drain. I think the ga jump in 99-00 was the loss of the high end puck moving D men that protected and cleared the zone. 00-01 was growth on the backline (Stafford a sophomore) and was Conklin's best year regardless of stats.

....and this is just one of the things (ok the thing) that we have so sorely missed when the likes of Brett Pesce/TvR moved along. But I have been encouraged by Anthony Wyse and his skating ability and thinking Max Gildon will bring some of that back next season. Ok, carry on like I said I enjoy the history lessons!!!

 

[Greg Ambrose]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. As a recruiter, Borek simply was no McCloskey. In fairness, not many were.

Let's not forget ... McCloskey at his peak was up against the Walshy/Standbrook juggernaut at UMaine.

UNH's gradual slide away from their apex years coincided directly with McCloskey taking the Women's job.

McCloskey was super competitive. He would relish going head-to-head with Maine or BC. When they landed Collins and Caron he was beyond ecstatic. Souza needs to find a guy like Brian who lives and breathes it.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I still say that 97-98 experience changed UNH's offensive and defensive philosophy. My eyes tell me that, it has been almost 20 years now since we saw the forward criss-cross at the offensive blue line. A staple attack of those pre 97-98 teams.

I don't think there's any question, JB. Coach took a ton of heat for the '98 FF semis loss, and to his credit he did adapt and make his future teams more organized and accountable in the defensive end. UNH teams up to that point were freewheeling and wide open, and every UNH team since then has moved further and further away from that style of play. Having said that ... in fairness that arguably only mirrors what has been happening across all levels of hockey over the last 20 or so years anyway. So it was probably inevitable, lest UNH be exposed for its defensive naivete. But that was a signature UNH style of play, it was fun, and it is missed.

McCloskey was super competitive. He would relish going head-to-head with Maine or BC. When they landed Collins and Caron he was beyond ecstatic. Souza needs to find a guy like Brian who lives and breathes it.

It's funny you don't even mention BU, but in truth it seemed for most of the UNH apex seasons (post-Drury) BU was fourth of the Big Four. Even BC wasn't BC, at least not until 2001, and arguably not until later when they won 3 out of 5 D-1's later in the decade. UNH was an OT goal in the '99 FF Finals away from being historically on par at that moment with UMaine and BC at one D-1 title apiece. And that was when Walshy/Standbrook were still at their best (the latter carried Whitehead for almost a decade post-Walshy), and York and BC had the USNDP all stitched up and funneling players constantly to Chestnut Hill. Heck, UNH arguably forced York out of BC's prior "comfort zone" when he went out and recruiting Canadian kids like Kolanos and Kobasew. That was fiercely in the teeth of the long-time Snooks Kelly playbook, but it was Kolanos who scored in OT to beat NoDak for the '01 title.

But close ('99) doesn't count, McCloskey couldn't stay as second banana forever, as he had his own aspirations to lead a program, and we all know how that played out - on both sides. By all accounts, Borek is a good guy ... but he's presided over the demise at Lake State, then didn't match McCloskey's recruiting impact at UNH, and may be en route to doing the same in a similar role at Providence. PC's advantage there is that Leaman will do what Umile apparently never wanted to do (recruiting) so Borek has more support now than he did at UNH.

The key to Souza's success will be if he himself isn't his own "McCloskey" or "Standbrook", he's going to need to hire someone else who is. Unless that guy is Stewart ... but I'm not sure there's any evidence so far that he is?

 

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

The key to Souza's success will be if he himself isn't his own "McCloskey" or "Standbrook", he's going to need to hire someone else who is.

The question I have... Is what made Maine so dangerous was both Walsh and Standbrook were fantastic on the recruiting trail? (that and some retroactive financial aid between friends)

I believe that is what you need to build a languishing or non-existent program. At least two high end salesmen out selling ice to Eskimos. I think you might be able to get away with an assistant that is I little more paperwork oriented... best salesmen I know are not so much on the specifics of rules and the NCAA has a hard time with that lack of institutional control.

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

The question I have... Is what made Maine so dangerous was both Walsh and Standbrook were fantastic on the recruiting trail? (that and some retroactive financial aid between friends)

Not completely. The recruiting in Durham has been so bad for so long we've totally forgotten our older grievances with the regime of DU. Champions of October, inability to defeat the trap, failure to adjust style to meet particular opponents, lack of situational awareness - down or up a goal, late in game, playoffs - overvaluing seniority in place of talent, playing flat at the biggest moments, etc. I feel bad, I used to have them all memorized, I'm sure I've forgotten something.

Walshy was the king of all of those on the ice, game situation things. While he was a cheating S O B at recruiting he was great at the coaching part of it.