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UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
- Thread starter Chuck Murray
- Start date
Innuit! Maybe Joey Juneau can find us a gem in Fort Chimo.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
Not really interested in getting into this debate again, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I've seen what DU has to offer first-hand this winter. While its a great package, I believe that UNH and everything it has to offer is on-par with DU and the rest of the best for student-athlete opportunity/value. You - seemingly based on conversations with those recruiting to UNH - feel that UNH has very little to offer the top recruit. The biggest difference between the programs over the last few years - in my opinion - is simply the recruiters. One school has been able to identify and sell top talent and one has not. We can agree that the leadership of UNH hockey needs to change dramatically, but there is no question in my mind that needs to extend to recent recruiters...
I understand your complaints that Borek was working without a HC's assistance - but you lose me a bit, because you have claimed before that Borek came to UNH in big part because he was to be given total control over recruiting. It sounds like he got what he wanted, couldn't sustain success and became frustrated by what was once empowerment, but now perceived as a lack of support. Fortunately for Borek, he failed up - again - to a program currently playing at a national level. Fortunately for Providence, they have a head coach who runs recruiting and they're not depending on their new associate...
The rest of your post is disappointing to read - it continues to confirm my perception that the leaders of UNH hockey view the program as sub-standard and behind the eight-ball. Until that changes, we can forget about any chance of success. No more excuses to rationalize poor performance. BC kids are not choosing Denver because of three hours less flight time to campus. They're choosing DU because Montgomery and his coaching staff believe in their program and are more aggressive finding, communicating, selling and closing...
What is the REAL reason behind PC's uptick in recruiting from the Pooley era to the Leaman years? Leaman became the recruiter. Leaman believes in himself and his program (whether its PC or a tiny, non-scholarship school with a dump of a rink in a dump of a town) and gets after it on the trail. Different recruiter, different attitude, different PC. UNH needs that kind of guy to lead recruiting. They haven't had that guy since McCloskey...
Not really interested in getting into this debate again, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I've seen what DU has to offer first-hand this winter. While its a great package, I believe that UNH and everything it has to offer is on-par with DU and the rest of the best for student-athlete opportunity/value. You - seemingly based on conversations with those recruiting to UNH - feel that UNH has very little to offer the top recruit. The biggest difference between the programs over the last few years - in my opinion - is simply the recruiters. One school has been able to identify and sell top talent and one has not. We can agree that the leadership of UNH hockey needs to change dramatically, but there is no question in my mind that needs to extend to recent recruiters...
I understand your complaints that Borek was working without a HC's assistance - but you lose me a bit, because you have claimed before that Borek came to UNH in big part because he was to be given total control over recruiting. It sounds like he got what he wanted, couldn't sustain success and became frustrated by what was once empowerment, but now perceived as a lack of support. Fortunately for Borek, he failed up - again - to a program currently playing at a national level. Fortunately for Providence, they have a head coach who runs recruiting and they're not depending on their new associate...
The rest of your post is disappointing to read - it continues to confirm my perception that the leaders of UNH hockey view the program as sub-standard and behind the eight-ball. Until that changes, we can forget about any chance of success. No more excuses to rationalize poor performance. BC kids are not choosing Denver because of three hours less flight time to campus. They're choosing DU because Montgomery and his coaching staff believe in their program and are more aggressive finding, communicating, selling and closing...
What is the REAL reason behind PC's uptick in recruiting from the Pooley era to the Leaman years? Leaman became the recruiter. Leaman believes in himself and his program (whether its PC or a tiny, non-scholarship school with a dump of a rink in a dump of a town) and gets after it on the trail. Different recruiter, different attitude, different PC. UNH needs that kind of guy to lead recruiting. They haven't had that guy since McCloskey...
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E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
Having complete control of something and having your boss's support are not mutually exclusive. Something along the lines of, "run it, get the deal all lined up and then let me know when you want me to step in to do my thing to help close", isn't an unrealistic way to think things might run.
Dan, I agree with the rest of your post, and really most of what you say on here, but I don't think you're being fair on this particular point.
Having complete control of something and having your boss's support are not mutually exclusive. Something along the lines of, "run it, get the deal all lined up and then let me know when you want me to step in to do my thing to help close", isn't an unrealistic way to think things might run.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
You're probably right.
Of course, Umile should have been involved and aided in recruiting whenever he could, but, Borek knew going in he would shoulder 99% of the recruiting responsibility and that is the way he wanted it. Regardless, I don't think he struggled to recruit to UNH because of Umile. Or because of the lack of a players lounge. Or because British Columbia is across the continent.
He struggled to bring top talent to UNH for three reasons. First, he made numerous poor decisions on EARLY commitments to players like Smith, Gaudreault, Hill, Kalinowski, Maller, Chanter, etc, etc, etc. Its not as if he was constantly missing on his targets and settling late - he offered these kids that early because he thought they were difference makers. Second, he consistently failed to monitor prospects after their commitments losing numerous kids to academic technicalities. Additionally, he failed to learn from these mistakes (Masonious). Finally, as we all know, he made a lot of poor decisions on deferrals leading to decommitments.
None of that is the fault of Umile not picking up the phone or missing a visit or two. Borek was empowered to make decisions and he made bad choices in philosophy, offers and class building and the roster has suffered as a result. That's why blaming Umile's lack of involvement just sounds like another in a long line of excuses. If Umile hindered recruiting, it was likely more an issue of Umile's personnel usage (upperclassmen) than not helping with the process itself...
Perhaps the most unfair thing I've done is to attribute the rationalizations made by posters on this board to Borek himself. I don't like posting about Borek. I empathize with him in many ways, but he just didn't/couldn't maintain the UNH recruiting momentum he inherited. Hopefully, the new staff can right the ship, but it seems so far that a lot of the old mental obstacles are still standing in the way...
You're probably right.
Of course, Umile should have been involved and aided in recruiting whenever he could, but, Borek knew going in he would shoulder 99% of the recruiting responsibility and that is the way he wanted it. Regardless, I don't think he struggled to recruit to UNH because of Umile. Or because of the lack of a players lounge. Or because British Columbia is across the continent.
He struggled to bring top talent to UNH for three reasons. First, he made numerous poor decisions on EARLY commitments to players like Smith, Gaudreault, Hill, Kalinowski, Maller, Chanter, etc, etc, etc. Its not as if he was constantly missing on his targets and settling late - he offered these kids that early because he thought they were difference makers. Second, he consistently failed to monitor prospects after their commitments losing numerous kids to academic technicalities. Additionally, he failed to learn from these mistakes (Masonious). Finally, as we all know, he made a lot of poor decisions on deferrals leading to decommitments.
None of that is the fault of Umile not picking up the phone or missing a visit or two. Borek was empowered to make decisions and he made bad choices in philosophy, offers and class building and the roster has suffered as a result. That's why blaming Umile's lack of involvement just sounds like another in a long line of excuses. If Umile hindered recruiting, it was likely more an issue of Umile's personnel usage (upperclassmen) than not helping with the process itself...
Perhaps the most unfair thing I've done is to attribute the rationalizations made by posters on this board to Borek himself. I don't like posting about Borek. I empathize with him in many ways, but he just didn't/couldn't maintain the UNH recruiting momentum he inherited. Hopefully, the new staff can right the ship, but it seems so far that a lot of the old mental obstacles are still standing in the way...
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scoreboard
Registered User
Thanks for posting, as I had forgotten about this event. Good to have UNH represented on Team USA by JvR, assuming his foot is healed. I realize that this is a UNH thread, but three HEA schools represented in Team USA net. One year and done Gophers Phil Kessel not on team but Blake Wheeler is, which I find surprising. Joe Thornton an obvious choice for Team Canada. Looking forward to game 1 of the Stanley Cup on Monday night.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
Me too! Hey not hockey related but thought of you last night at the Joe Bonamassa show which was unbelievable. I'm not a big blues fan but have to say amazing. Wonder if he's a hockey fan haha Oh, to make it UNH hockey relevant, sat next to some people who know the Nazarian fam and went to Malden Catholic. There, post works...somehow.
Me too! Hey not hockey related but thought of you last night at the Joe Bonamassa show which was unbelievable. I'm not a big blues fan but have to say amazing. Wonder if he's a hockey fan haha Oh, to make it UNH hockey relevant, sat next to some people who know the Nazarian fam and went to Malden Catholic. There, post works...somehow.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
Dan
Bomber is correct about Denver having great advantages over us in recruiting (particularly Western kids from Canada and US). Take Garrett Gamez as an example among many others. They are happy to visit UNH and most like it here just fine (with or without weight rooms and a videoboard). Our rink was perfect for Gamez (olympic sheet for skill player with speed) and he chose Denver over UNH (like most do that are looking at both schools). I do not ever remember a win against Denver in recruiting over the past 20 years. If Denver had offered Krog, it is highly likely he would not have come to UNH. It is the same with BU, BC and many others as we have never been seen as first choice school for most great hockey players. We get lucky every now and again due to connections. Borek seems to be doing fine at Providence and Gamez is a key piece at Providence. You all know what I think of pulling offers and it seems that will be the MO for PC going forward. Gaudreault and Maller are very good college hockey players. UNH has never had 4 scoring lines since the 1970's. You need them all and you should not dismiss them. Maller's physical problems have been tough to overcome but he is a top 2 defensemen when healthy and top 4 when not. It would be great if we pick up a star forward or defensemen at the last minute. We probably have the money and we do have a very talented freshmen class this year.
Your email you sent must have been erased by either USCHO or my spam forlder. Thanks for staying loyal to UNH no matter what. I hope we turn the corner soon. Please try again.
Dan
Bomber is correct about Denver having great advantages over us in recruiting (particularly Western kids from Canada and US). Take Garrett Gamez as an example among many others. They are happy to visit UNH and most like it here just fine (with or without weight rooms and a videoboard). Our rink was perfect for Gamez (olympic sheet for skill player with speed) and he chose Denver over UNH (like most do that are looking at both schools). I do not ever remember a win against Denver in recruiting over the past 20 years. If Denver had offered Krog, it is highly likely he would not have come to UNH. It is the same with BU, BC and many others as we have never been seen as first choice school for most great hockey players. We get lucky every now and again due to connections. Borek seems to be doing fine at Providence and Gamez is a key piece at Providence. You all know what I think of pulling offers and it seems that will be the MO for PC going forward. Gaudreault and Maller are very good college hockey players. UNH has never had 4 scoring lines since the 1970's. You need them all and you should not dismiss them. Maller's physical problems have been tough to overcome but he is a top 2 defensemen when healthy and top 4 when not. It would be great if we pick up a star forward or defensemen at the last minute. We probably have the money and we do have a very talented freshmen class this year.
Your email you sent must have been erased by either USCHO or my spam forlder. Thanks for staying loyal to UNH no matter what. I hope we turn the corner soon. Please try again.
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bomberhockey
Registered User
Borek came to UNH for one reason, he was told in 2002 that he'd be HC in 5 years. He'd have lived help in recruiting, and is extremely happy now that everyone is involved at PC. Frankly what happened here couldn't happen there because they're all involved with their recruits, he doesn't have introduce them to the HC in August of enrollment. He's still point at PC but not HC, closer and financial dealer. Borek thought he'd be HC when the lowly recruit JVR started here. He wasn't when TVR finished. As far as deferrals and not staying on his recruits I'll just say respectfully you have no idea what your talking about. I guess time will tell if PC slides too, but he had a good year this year recruiting so we'll see.
E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
You make great points about Borek's shortcoming. Losing touch with commits, deferrals - omg the deferrals, the maddeningly stupid deferrals - the quantity over quality approach, the outright poor talent assessments, totally agreed. Add to that something your post made me think of for the first time, the utterly failed "Maryland Strategy". He went all in on the mid-Atlantic approach, maybe even thinking he was visionary and getting a jump on the rest of the college hockey world. Didn't work out that way but unfortunately UNH pegged a fair amount of their recruiting to it.
No argument on any of that. Further response below but my bottom line in all of this is that for UNH to go from where they were to where they are it took across the board failure. But it seems like various parties on this thread have staked out positions that it was either Umile or Borek and have slowly over the course of the discussion polarized in their positions. It wasn't Umile or Borek, it was Umile and Borek that caused this failure, at least that's my position. Given the current state of the program, there certainly should be enough blame to go around.
You make great points about Borek's shortcoming. Losing touch with commits, deferrals - omg the deferrals, the maddeningly stupid deferrals - the quantity over quality approach, the outright poor talent assessments, totally agreed. Add to that something your post made me think of for the first time, the utterly failed "Maryland Strategy". He went all in on the mid-Atlantic approach, maybe even thinking he was visionary and getting a jump on the rest of the college hockey world. Didn't work out that way but unfortunately UNH pegged a fair amount of their recruiting to it.
E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
So how do you explain Quinnipiac, Lowell, Union, Providence? Are you saying they've traditionally been first choice schools of great hockey players?
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
This is the part of the discussion where Dan is absolutely 100% on the mark. If there are enough people in the recruiting process at UNH who feel defeated before they even begin, then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Leaman has shown how to do this twice now, and of course no one other than Walshy taught him how it was done during his time as a volunteer assistant at Orono.
The idea that even BC or BU is "magic" has been tested before (i.e. Count Cedorchuck and now Dan Quinn), and will probably be tested again once Coach York is done at CHCC. But so long as 90% of the schools they're competing against throw in the towel and don't even try to compete for recruits at a certain level ... doesn't it make things SO much easier for the BC's and the BU's of the D-1 hockey world?
If you're selling - and let's face it, these guys are selling their programs - even successful salesmen get rejected more often than they sell their product. The best at selling get used to (frequent) rejection, don't take it personally, buckle down, learn from their mistakes and then keep on selling. Maybe the message gets fine-tuned to be more efficient ... but if you are a D-1 recruiter and just throw in the towel on the most talented prospects ... then you're hopefully working for one helluva great hockey teacher (perhaps the Bazin/Pecknold type?) to make up for that talent gap. If you're not fishing in the best pond, and your instructor can't make the second pond fish competitive with the best of the best pond, then you're doomed to mediocrity. And I frankly think that's where UNH currently finds itself.
Sounds like this non-recruiting HC did a pretty good job at "selling" his own *recruit* a bill of goods, perhaps?
This is the part of the discussion where Dan is absolutely 100% on the mark. If there are enough people in the recruiting process at UNH who feel defeated before they even begin, then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Leaman has shown how to do this twice now, and of course no one other than Walshy taught him how it was done during his time as a volunteer assistant at Orono.
The idea that even BC or BU is "magic" has been tested before (i.e. Count Cedorchuck and now Dan Quinn), and will probably be tested again once Coach York is done at CHCC. But so long as 90% of the schools they're competing against throw in the towel and don't even try to compete for recruits at a certain level ... doesn't it make things SO much easier for the BC's and the BU's of the D-1 hockey world?
If you're selling - and let's face it, these guys are selling their programs - even successful salesmen get rejected more often than they sell their product. The best at selling get used to (frequent) rejection, don't take it personally, buckle down, learn from their mistakes and then keep on selling. Maybe the message gets fine-tuned to be more efficient ... but if you are a D-1 recruiter and just throw in the towel on the most talented prospects ... then you're hopefully working for one helluva great hockey teacher (perhaps the Bazin/Pecknold type?) to make up for that talent gap. If you're not fishing in the best pond, and your instructor can't make the second pond fish competitive with the best of the best pond, then you're doomed to mediocrity. And I frankly think that's where UNH currently finds itself.
Sounds like this non-recruiting HC did a pretty good job at "selling" his own *recruit* a bill of goods, perhaps?
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Whatever our views on the nuances of his work, Bomber please accept our condolences on the death of Borek's son. I hope he can find peace from that devastating event.
bomberhockey
Registered User
Awful news.I can't even imagine the pain of losing a child. Thoughts and prayers to Coach Borek and his family.
I'm humbled by the UNH community and especially the hockey staff, players and alumni during this tragedy. Having exposure to the Boreks and seeing and hearing the outpouring of sympathy and compassion from the very people I've harshly criticized frankly leaves me embarrassed. When it comes right down to it the UNH hockey community came running to stand by the Boreks in their moment of devastation. I'm sorry Gordie paid the ultimate price to show me how good people generally are. I've learned many lessons from the Boreks in the time Ive known them. I've seen them overcome other obstacles that they made seem effortless and grace filled. Scott is far and away the most positive person I've known and to see him racked to his core with grief is unsettling. I thank you Watcher and all for your well wishes for the Boreks. I'd ask you to pray for the Boreks to find the strength and peace in getting through this sad sad tragedy.
Gordie just turned 22, and a proud UNH Wildcat!
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
No matter how/what we feel about the way things go for UNH hockey I know we all feel this loss and would do anything for the Borek family. Sorry for your loss as well Bomber...knowing the family the way that you do must be very difficult. I would like to send the family a card so if you have an address please pm me if you want to or post it here (thinking of the PC Athletic office addy which I can look up myself ) if you feel that's appropriate...thanks in advance....take care.
No matter how/what we feel about the way things go for UNH hockey I know we all feel this loss and would do anything for the Borek family. Sorry for your loss as well Bomber...knowing the family the way that you do must be very difficult. I would like to send the family a card so if you have an address please pm me if you want to or post it here (thinking of the PC Athletic office addy which I can look up myself ) if you feel that's appropriate...thanks in advance....take care.
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2016 Offseason Thread - Searching for Direction
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thoughts and prayers go out to the Borek family. RIP Gordy summer camps and 3 v 3 at the Whitt won't be the same without you</p>— Tyler Kelleher (@TKelleher16) <a href="https://twitter.com/TKelleher16/status/736988433185398785">May 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thoughts and prayers go out to the Borek family. RIP Gordy summer camps and 3 v 3 at the Whitt won't be the same without you</p>— Tyler Kelleher (@TKelleher16) <a href="https://twitter.com/TKelleher16/status/736988433185398785">May 29, 2016</a></blockquote>
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