UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

As far as JVR is concerned - as usual you are way out of line to assume he doesn't work his *** off because he didn't score enough for you while he was here at UNH. He will go down as one of the great American forwards of his generation whether he met your expectations or not.

But the reality is he left early - and didn't consult with your fandom first. Which means that he's just another UNH alum you actively root against so you can look smart. How selfish of these kids to make decisions in their own best interests and not ours....

Just a couple of clarifications ... no, I don't "actively root against" players who leave UNH (or anywhere else) early. I'm just not as fascinated as others on how these early departures do once they leave. Is that wrong? Is there protocol on what level we should all be following our former players at their next levels? I've always said, we are all entitled to be fans how we see fit individually. I like my UNH players best when they are well-rounded two-way, four year players.

And to paraphrase EJ, I'm pretty sure no one's out there keeping score on the outcome of our message board prognostications for posterity's sake. When I've been wrong, I've admitted it. I think this is a fun place to compare my opinions and theories on what works (and what doesn't) with others who have strong opinions. For example ... among others, 'Watcher was pivotal in talking me off the pro-Umile bandwagon over a year ago. On the other hand, I was immediately harsh on both the captain choice last season and the senior checking first line, and took a lot of heat ... until a lot of folks had their changes of heart. It's give and take, and it feels like you're taking some of this a little too personally, Dan. It's OK though. I'll still take your calls.

Now ... as to your assertion that JvR is "great" in any sense of his career beyond his original draft slot and resulting windfall signing(s) ... I say this is just another example of way too loose use of the word "great". JvR has never been an NHL All-Star, and he capped out as an All-HE Second Team forward as a soph. His biggest honor in the NHL (I believe?) was as NHL Rookie of the Month in 2009? Good/very good at times? Sure. Great? I don't agree.

Let's try this ... pick your favorite NHL team, imagine you are the GM. You are actively interested in trading for JvR at the '17 trade deadline, and Toronto is willing to move him. Who are you going to give up?

I'm offering Toronto a DRW package of Riley Sheahan and either Brendan Smith or a 3rd round pick.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

but if you did ever watch the two warm up or compared them to goalies around college hockey

Ah, the crux of the problem. You see, Chuck hardly ever goes to a game. In fact, if he is not wearing his Expos hat I would have no idea how to pick him out of a crowd. Dan, you are so right about the comparison between Tirone and DiGi. A couple of little engines that could until the couldn't anymore. Not to say that Tirone can't have a good game here or there but, in the long slog of the season, Clark gives them a better chance to win because the team, especially the defense, will play with more confidence in front of him.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

Ah, the crux of the problem. You see, Chuck hardly ever goes to a game. In fact, if he is not wearing his Expos hat I would have no idea how to pick him out of a crowd. Dan, you are so right about the comparison between Tirone and DiGi. A couple of little engines that could until the couldn't anymore. Not to say that Tirone can't have a good game here or there but, in the long slog of the season, Clark gives them a better chance to win because the team, especially the defense, will play with more confidence in front of him.

It's funny ... I'll be the first to admit I'm not at games as often as I used to be, or anything approaching where you guys are attendance-wise ... but counting the MBPBEGAM playoffs at Merrimack at the end of last season, I've actually SEEN in person four (4) of the last six (6) UNH games. Including New Brunswick and Bentley, and not including Clarkson, which I saw online.

So again - yeah, I get the point, but it's overstated now as opposed to my (very rare) appearances a few seasons ago when I was busier with my own (non-hockey) coaching activities. I'm not commenting on the DiGi comparison for that very reason.

Oh ... and the Expos hat has been retired. The last few years, I had a Northwestern Huskies cap because the (small) local HS where I coached had the same initial and color scheme, and more recently I'm wearing my own club's hat with logo (Scott can probably verify?). Usually sit behind the goal under the old board, about 3/4's of the way up the stands - you know, right behind the UNH goalies 2 out of 3 periods - and walk around the concourse counter-clockwise in between periods. I'm also not a physically small person (still working on that though ). So there are some hints (for anyone who cares). I mean, it's not like I'm hiding, but I'm also not saying "Look at me!!" either. Like everyone else (I assume?), I'm there to watch a game, not to "build my brand" or any of that stuff the young'uns do. Like I've said ... different strokes for different folks.

---------------

So ... with that little piece of clean-up defense out of the way, what exactly has anyone seen (in a real game) from Clark that tells them definitively that he's better than Tirone? Other than, we're P.O.'ed at Coach (join the club BTW) and we think DT is another example of Coach playing favorites (and I agree that sometimes happens)?

Remember ... I thought Clark got shafted a little in the aftermath of Tirone's arrival, and I've always been open to giving him a chance at being part of a regular rotation OR even taking over the top job. Still am. But he's had chances, and I think you'd have to agree he hasn't made the most of them (BTW I know the injury last season was unlucky). St. Lawrence on Friday is only the most recent example of "opportunity lost" for Clark.

You see, that's my problem. I guess I see two kids who have at different times in their UNH careers had opportunities present themselves to each of them. Clark was the biggest beneficiary when "L'Affaire DeSmith" struck 2+ years ago, and had half the season to make his case as what could have set him up as a 4 year starter. Talk about unprecedented good fortune landing on your doorstep. I think he proved himself to be a capable HE back-up level goalie, and whether you agree with him or not, it forced Coach Umile to go get Tirone a semester (and a full year of eligibility) earlier than planned. He gave Tirone a shot just like the one Clark got in the preceding October, and I don't think you can say Tirone didn't take that opportunity. You can say Borek adjusted the defense, and I'm not saying he didn't ... but if Coach Umile thought mere tweaking of his defense would be enough to boost Clark's performance, I'm guessing he would have left Tirone in juniors according to their original plans.

Tirone clearly struggled last season - especially early on - and again Clark got a chance (and so did emergency GK Regan after Clark's injury). Clark was OK but hardly set the world on fire, and again the door was left open for Tirone, who played better in the second half of last season, but still not up to his Frosh form. The door was left open (again) for Clark to seize the job.

The UNB exhibition saw Clark get a start, and DT finished up. Clark played OK but wasn't really tested, and DT played OK, let up the only goal on a 3-on-1 that wasn't his fault, and got the nod for the Bentley opener, where he opened the door for Clark again. Clark in turn leaves the door open for Tirone, who actually plays well and is an integral part of the win against Clarkson, and has probably earned the next start vs. Colorado College.

So Clark has had at least - AT LEAST - four chances to make his case. And the best one was the one he had in Fall 2014, but for one reason or another, he's never taken his chance.

To me, anyway, it's pretty clear Coach Umile is looking for one of his goalies to step up and be "the man". And while neither has proven themselves (yet) to be a top-half of HE first string goalie, Tirone has done more with his opportunities than Clark has. So far. You folks know I'm not afraid to criticize Coach for a whole range of issues, but *overlooking* Clark is not going to be one of them. At least not until Clark shows me something more than just being big, or for just not being Tirone. JMHO.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

TyK earns Hockey East Player of the Week with his 5 points over the weekend!! Atta boy...

Hockey East ‏@hockey_east 35m
35 minutes ago

#HEA Awards: @WarriorHockey POW T. Kelleher

http://hockeyeastonline.com/men/recaps17.php?mclkunh1.o15

ps off the grid for awhile folks, but will be watchin' from afar.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

So ... with that little piece of clean-up defense out of the way, what exactly has anyone seen (in a real game) from Clark that tells them definitively that he's better than Tirone?

But he's had chances, and I think you'd have to agree he hasn't made the most of them (BTW I know the injury last season was unlucky). St. Lawrence on Friday is only the most recent example of "opportunity lost" for Clark.

Clark was OK but hardly set the world on fire, and again the door was left open for Tirone, who played better in the second half of last season, but still not up to his Frosh form. The door was left open (again) for Clark to seize the job.

To me, anyway, it's pretty clear Coach Umile is looking for one of his goalies to step up and be "the man". And while neither has proven themselves (yet) to be a top-half of HE first string goalie, Tirone has done more with his opportunities than Clark has. So far. You folks know I'm not afraid to criticize Coach for a whole range of issues, but *overlooking* Clark is not going to be one of them. At least not until Clark shows me something more than just being big, or for just not being Tirone. JMHO.

Well Chuck, you seem to have the ability to overlook a lot of Tirone's faults, as enunciated clearly by Dan. I would add that, first, he does not have a good glove hand. Second, he's small and does himself no favors by not trying to make himself bigger. Because of this he gets beat high a lot. Third, he doesn't move side to side in control. Too often he, not so much wanders, but drifts too far out of the crease, requiring him to scramble back and make (sometimes) the athletic save. And fourth, he is down way too much. No goalie does his team a favor when he is prone on the ice, sometimes face first, while the action is flurrying around him. As for Clark, he is bigger, he is more positional, he has a decent glove hand, and he has a sense of where the puck should be for his dmen to handle it. He is not as athletic as Tirone, but then, he doesn't have to be because he is better positionally.

Your indictment of Clark based on his performance on Friday is night is ludicrous. I watched the first period of the game before switching to the baseball playoffs. UNH had about three minutes of zone time in the period, including when they had a two man advantage PP. In the defensive zone St. Lawrence basically did anything they pleased. Maybe Clark could have saved one of those goals, I don't know. But UNH was not going to win that game based on what I saw. I did not see the Clarkson game but if you are implying that Tirone strapped the team on his back and they came out gangbusters, how come they were down 2-0 in the first? Please don't get me wrong on this. I am not saying that, if Clark started all the games that somehow UNH would be contending for the HE title. But if Umile is looking for either of these guys to be the chosen one, he is barking up the wrong tree. My bottom line is that neither of these goalies should be the anointed one. It bothers me no end that Umile is attempting to do this, especially since there were a few years (1999 and 2002 come to mind) where more accomplished goalies than these two split time equally right into the playoffs.

And, btw, they miss Lassonde big time when it comes to goaltending.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

Please don't get me wrong on this. I am not saying that, if Clark started all the games that somehow UNH would be contending for the HE title. But if Umile is looking for either of these guys to be the chosen one, he is barking up the wrong tree. My bottom line is that neither of these goalies should be the anointed one. It bothers me no end that Umile is attempting to do this, especially since there were a few years (1999 and 2002 come to mind) where more accomplished goalies than these two split time equally right into the playoffs.

Greg, I think we're closer to agreeing on this as a big picture assessment than you seem to think.

Especially the part in bold above. But if you play the "championship belt" approach where you feel the need to designate your top guy, and to justify some event for sitting him and starting the other guy at some point ... then Tirone has done just enough more often than Clark has when he's gotten his opportunities. If Coach decided to go with a straight rotation now, I wouldn't have a beef with that ... but if past events offer insight into future results, my guess is Tirone would emerge as the top guy (again).

Maybe Coach Umile watched a lot of WWWF back in the day?

Or maybe - like me - Coach just favors the more athletic goalie, and arguably that blinds him (us?) to his shortcomings? Give me a choice between Jonathan Quick (Tirone) and Ben Bishop (Clark), and I'm there for Quick. Then again, as a kid I loved Rogie Vachon (Tirone?) and wasn't a huge Ken Dryden (Clark?) fan. Styles can differ, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I really like goalies who win big games.

But with all due respect to you and Dan ... at some point, perceived talents and so-called superior skills need to translate into performance AND results, and sometimes it's about more than pure talent and/or clean technique. Let's not overlook (and undersell) the ability of what many once considered lesser goalies (such as Dom Hasek, and even Terry Sawchuck back before my time) to compete and to get at more pucks in unconventional ways. Or Gerry Cheevers from the Big Bad B's (or Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr, Chris Osgood or Corey Crawford since) who was never ever considered the best at anything ... other than, you know, winning the big games at the end of the season.

Neither Tirone nor Clark belong anywhere near that discussion ... but at least Tirone has shown an ability to keep his cool and perform in bigger games than Clark, and when the top position has been up for grabs, Tirone has been the one of the two to emerge. If you dismiss these things, go down the "there is no clutch gene" and all minutes are equal, then sure, put them in a rotation and see how it plays out. I just think it's already happened a few times, Tirone has responded better than Clark, and that's a huge clue (to me anyway) as to which of the two I'd need to pick for key games later in the year. But by no means do I think this UNH goalie competition should be over. JMHO.

 

[e.cat]

Greg, I think we're closer to agreeing on this as a big picture assessment than you seem to think.

Especially the part in bold above. But if you play the "championship belt" approach where you feel the need to designate your top guy, and to justify some event for sitting him and starting the other guy at some point ... then Tirone has done just enough more often than Clark has when he's gotten his opportunities. If Coach decided to go with a straight rotation now, I wouldn't have a beef with that ... but if past events offer insight into future results, my guess is Tirone would emerge as the top guy (again).

Maybe Coach Umile watched a lot of WWWF back in the day?

Or maybe - like me - Coach just favors the more athletic goalie, and arguably that blinds him (us?) to his shortcomings? Give me a choice between Jonathan Quick (Tirone) and Ben Bishop (Clark), and I'm there for Quick. Then again, as a kid I loved Rogie Vachon (Tirone?) and wasn't a huge Ken Dryden (Clark?) fan. Styles can differ, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I really like goalies who win big games.

But with all due respect to you and Dan ... at some point, perceived talents and so-called superior skills need to translate into performance AND results, and sometimes it's about more than pure talent and/or clean technique. Let's not overlook (and undersell) the ability of what many once considered lesser goalies (such as Dom Hasek, and even Terry Sawchuck back before my time) to compete and to get at more pucks in unconventional ways. Or Gerry Cheevers from the Big Bad B's (or Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr, Chris Osgood or Corey Crawford since) who was never ever considered the best at anything ... other than, you know, winning the big games at the end of the season.

Neither Tirone nor Clark belong anywhere near that discussion ... but at least Tirone has shown an ability to keep his cool and perform in bigger games than Clark, and when the top position has been up for grabs, Tirone has been the one of the two to emerge. If you dismiss these things, go down the "there is no clutch gene" and all minutes are equal, then sure, put them in a rotation and see how it plays out. I just think it's already happened a few times, Tirone has responded better than Clark, and that's a huge clue (to me anyway) as to which of the two I'd need to pick for key games later in the year. But by no means do I think this UNH goalie competition should be over. JMHO.

I would add Tim Thomas to your once or twice or even thrice "overlooked" list Chuck!

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

First of all Chuck - while a small sample size, Clark was phenomenal last season averaging 30+ saves and turning in a 2.00 GAA and a .940 SPCT in two games immediately on the immediate heels of Tirone's 4.00+ GAA through the first four games and the exhibition. FYI, Tirone gave up all four goals against STX while Clark made all six of his saves. It didn't stop Tirone from getting the first four starts of the year, and having to essentially force Umile to pull him after the UMass game...

You claim Clark has missed his opportunities? Sure, he'd probably like to have played better in 2014 but the difference in team defense over the two halts is absolutely a legitimate factor. His second opportunity last season was a total success cut short. This season he's made one start - not a great effort but better than Tirone's game one and with zero game experience in nearly a year. So I dismiss that he hasn't nailed his opportunities and argue that he almost never gets a fair chance.

It would have been right for Unile to give him a chance behind a MUCH better team in the second half of 2014 and he owes Clark a fair chance to play in at least a true rotation now. But I have serious doubts he will - of Tirone plays halfway decently against CC and UNH wins I bet he starts the first game the following weekend and probably rides as the #1 until he posts another UMass meltdown.

If Clark had actually blown opportunities I don't think anyone would be complaining. He has proven he deserves a shot and Tirone has proven he is not the clear number one he is treated as being. Clark should be given an extended look now - it isn't fair for him (or the team) to feel like his PT is riding on every shot against, while Tirone gets chance after chance despite - again - not having played well consistently in two years...!!

----

It's also silly to list the short HOF caliber goalies as an argument for Tirone. Once again, there is a reason those guys stand out so much - they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Bigger goalies are very often better - that's why so many of the better goalies are big. BTW, Quick is three inches taller and nearly 50 lbs heavier than Tirone...

 

[wildcatdc]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

Prefacing all of this with saying that I have zero dog in this hunt. I just want the best guy in there, the one who gives us the best chance by stopping a few that our at times lackluster D shouldn't have allowed reach him in the first place.

I don't profess to be a goaltending history or technique buff, so I'll just refer to the numbers....

Tirone had a DEMONSTRABLY better freshman year than Clark, in basically every statistical category, and in the meat of the HEA schedule that got us pretty darn close to an auto-bid, IIRC.

That stated, Tirone's sophomore campaign was not especially strong (as Dan points out). Here's the issue with that, though - Clark's body of evidence since 2014 (that's a long time ago) consists of two great games and one to forget. Three games.

So, we have one goalie with declining numbers year-over-year, and another with an "incomplete" after a rough freshman season. It's hard to (from statistics, anyway), make a strong case for either as a #1. Especially when you can't calibrate for the effects of our defensive play.

I don't think the decision leads us to the Garden, anyway, so my hope is that we split time to see who really comes forward as the #1. Prior to these guys we've had only two seasons since 2005 in which we truly split duties. Regan and Petrasiak, and then DiGi and DeSmith in 2011-12 (though once DeSmith showed his wares, you could argue that a clear #1 emerged that year).

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

Tirone had a DEMONSTRABLY better freshman year than Clark, in basically every statistical category, and in the meat of the HEA schedule that got us pretty darn close to an auto-bid, IIRC.

That stated, Tirone's sophomore campaign was not especially strong (as Dan points out). Here's the issue with that, though - Clark's body of evidence since 2014 (that's a long time ago) consists of two great games and one to forget. Three games.

So, we have one goalie with declining numbers year-over-year, and another with an "incomplete" after a rough freshman season. It's hard to (from statistics, anyway), make a strong case for either as a #1. Especially when you can't calibrate for the effects of our defensive play.

I don't think the decision leads us to the Garden, anyway, so my hope is that we split time to see who really comes forward as the #1. Prior to these guys we've had only two seasons since 2005 in which we truly split duties. Regan and Petrasiak, and then DiGi and DeSmith in 2011-12 (though once DeSmith showed his wares, you could argue that a clear #1 emerged that year).

Winner right here. My only point beyond this is Coach Umile makes his decision using his filter - not ours. I'm not defending his decision - just that based on his approach to things, I can understand (and I can't criticize) why he's made the decisions he's made. And if he does change his approach tomorrow - I'm fine with that, too.

The ideas that (1) Clark is clearly a superior goalie, and (2) Clark hasn't had his opportunities, just aren't true. We'll never know what Clark would have done last year after his promising pre-injury stint. Unlucky, yes. But still only two games.

And I don't think it's "unfair" that any goalie feels PT hinges on every shot against. Just the nature of the position.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.

 

[wildcatdc]

Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.

Bingo. Could be a DiGi/DeSmith situation until the newcomer takes the reins.

 

[HockeyRef]

Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.

You know I wondered when the elephant in the room (Robinson
and I don't mean that in a bad way) would show up been thinking about this myself reading these posts

 

[Rover]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

My only point beyond this is Coach Umile makes his decision using his filter - not ours. I'm not defending his decision - just that based on his approach to things, I can understand (and I can't criticize) why he's made the decisions he's made.

His "filter" has been clouded by senility for years now. I can't believe he still has a job. I'd criticize just about everything the guy has done to the program at this point. I swear you UNH fans are so used to torture you could have put up with whatever they were dishing out at Abu Ghraib prison no problem.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

You know I wondered when the elephant in the room (Robinson
and I don't mean that in a bad way) would show up been thinking about this myself reading these posts ��

Robinson is a backup in the USHL, having played 1 of 7 games.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0060512017.html

 

[wildcatdc]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.

 

[e.cat]

While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.

Yup. Dan's prototypical goalie!

 

[scoreboard]

Pretty good post by you too - but if you did ever watch the two warm up or compared them to goalies around college hockey you would be astounded at how easily the team picks corners on Tirone over and over - it is absolutely proof of how much net space he shows to shooters as compared to other goalies. Perhaps that is why some think thy UNH boasts so many of the best shooters in the league...

Clark is better, in large part, yes, simply because of his size and style. It's a huge factor that cannot be ignored...

I find the discussion amusing about who is the better goalie. Unless this defense gets better it won't matter.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.

Uh, oh; now we are not only posting about JvR's and TvR's NHL careers, but also another HEA team goalie's NHL career.

 

[wildcatdc]

Uh, oh; now we are not only posting about JvR's and TvR's NHL careers, but also another HEA team goalie's NHL career.

Well, if we want to get on a roll, Daniel Winnik was the headline of the Washington Post sports section yesterday, having potted both goals in their home opener 2-1 win. I elected not to post about it when I saw it at breakfast, but will do so now just fan the flames!