I can't pick on Dan on this one. It was precisely Clark's Hellebuyckian proportions that had me fired up for his arrival a few years back.
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UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
- Thread starter Chuck Murray
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I can't pick on Dan on this one. It was precisely Clark's Hellebuyckian proportions that had me fired up for his arrival a few years back.
The ideas that (1) Clark is clearly a superior goalie, and (2) Clark hasn't had his opportunities, just aren't true. We'll never know what Clark would have done last year after his promising pre-injury stint. Unlucky, yes. But still only two games.
And I don't think it's "unfair" that any goalie feels PT hinges on every shot against. Just the nature of the position.
Your first points are your opinion and nothing more. You keep circling back to this notion of Clark proving to be the #1. I've never argued that he has, statistically. I believe he has because I've watched both goalies play often from the moment they committed and because I've watched them head to head for the last two years. if that doesn't convince you, that's ok. But for a guy who goes on and on about numbers lying and telling only part of the story - you sure cling to them when you think they make your case...
Here are some numbers for you. Did you know that in Clark's 18 games in 2014 he only allowed more than three goals in five occasions? And only more than two goals in seven occasions? That means in 11 games after being thrust into the starting role immediately he allowed two goals or less. He had early clunkers against Michigan State and Lowell, but in his last ten games averaged 30 saves and posted a save percentage of .926.
Pretty **** good numbers based on what we've been accustomed to since the start of the 15-16 season, no?
Tirone began his career with two good starts and then gave up a GAA of 4.20 over his next ten games. And where was Clark at this time? Glued to the bench. So much for opportunity...
All I've argued is that Clarks play, coupled with Tirone's for more than a year and a half and nearly 40 games - has proven he deserves a fair shake, which he has never been given. Perhaps he hasn't "earned" number one status so much as Tirone has struggled to the point that he should have lost it...
Last season Tirone had to give up 20 goals over 14 periods before Umile finally, begrudgingly, gave Clark another opportunity. He responded with back to back two-goals against victories. Then he got hurt and Tirone returned and gave up 12 the next weekend at a Michigan State team that was amongst the most impotent in all of college hockey. Later in the year he played his way to the bench in lieu of Jamie Regan - who probably deserved to continue to play after his effort versus Notre Dame...
So there you go - there is proof that Clarks "poor" start to his career and Tirone's surge into the scene are not exactly as different as they seem. Certainly, you agree that ever since Tirone has not met the bell? I can't imagine you wouldn't agree that they're not playing with the same amount of rope? Your statement above about stopping every shot is a good one - I'd agree, but shouldn't BOTH goalies be held to that standard??
You may prefer Tirone. You may prefer pretty saves with a high GAA to boring goaltending and a win. But if you're argument is that Clark has not earned the job, you simply cannot say that he's lost the job or that his counterpart has done anything to win it...
As far as equal opportunity - you know that's just not true. It's clear who Umile wants to be his goalie and it's clear which one will get second and third chances...
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And if you want to defer to Dick pushing all the right buttons in the crease - let me ask you this. Tirone looked like the least confident person in the building in a lot of his starts last year. Could better decision making by the coach and more opportunity for Clark been a benefit to Tirone's mindset? rather than being forced back on to the ice again and again early last season? Would the time off and the competition have cleared his head and put him in a better spot down the stretch?
I'd argue yes, it would have helped Tirone and Umile certainly did him no favors. He didn't do the team any favored either...
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38-12-2 with GAAs of 1.37 and 1.79 and SPCTs of .952 and .941, respectively, over his two year college career. And 2.34/.918 in 26 NHL games last season...
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
haha good one! Yeah, seeing him in net brings back the 2013 Regionals for me...ugh. He is one big boy tho...loved the Chara goal (which they took back grrr) on him! Scoreboard...you gotta point there
haha good one! Yeah, seeing him in net brings back the 2013 Regionals for me...ugh. He is one big boy tho...loved the Chara goal (which they took back grrr) on him! Scoreboard...you gotta point there
scoreboard
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
I still find Michgan's 20-year run of 4-year #1 starters to be ridiculous, especially given the hardware they picked up along the way.
Shields kicked it off in 91, then Turco, Blackburn, Montoya and Sauer. Might have been one split year in there due to injury, but still amazing.
I still find Michgan's 20-year run of 4-year #1 starters to be ridiculous, especially given the hardware they picked up along the way.
Shields kicked it off in 91, then Turco, Blackburn, Montoya and Sauer. Might have been one split year in there due to injury, but still amazing.
I'll settle this discussion once and for all. They both stink.
I can't argue with that point - but here's one more comparison stat...
If you take out the MSU and UML clunkers in 2014 - Clarks numbers jump to 2.45 GAA and a .914 SPCT or ONE more goal per 100 shots. So with the exception of a six day blip on the radar he was essentially just as good as Tirone that season. And yet recollection of the two "seasons" couldn't be more different. Why? Because the team in front of the goalies, and not the goalies themselves, put up two different seasons...
EDIT - upon further review the schedule was also extremely front loaded thy season...
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And it's been their Achilles heel ever since - so I suppose were not entirely alone in our predicament. though, it sure feels like we are...
Exactly; Cap Raeder, Ty Conklin, and Mike Ayers would look bad behind these blue liners.
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Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
Disagree, respectfully, with all of you. Frosh goalie leapfrogging established (didn't say great or very good) older players doesn't happen in UmileWorld - you folks all should know better by now. Besides ...
... it's not like Robinson is tearing it up right now in Dubuque.
100% absolutely true.
Dan - I'm tempted to let this one go, just as something we're never going to agree on. I guess I'm confused a little bit because you claim Clark's positional discipline makes it easier for his team to play around him ... yet in 2014/2015, you've admitted the defense played a lot better in the second half of the season, when Tirone replaced Clark. And this past weekend, again the UNH defense was totally at sea in the Friday loss to SLU when Clark was in goal, yet played their best game of the season against arguably their best opponent on Saturday
when Tirone was back in goal. You also cut Tirone no slack for last season, when his defense was habitually and chronically unable to move the puck out of their own zone against opposition of average-plus quality.
You also mention stats I'm quoting, and beyond wins and losses in the 2014/2015 season, I'm not pointing at save pct. or "let's ignore this game and that game - hey look, now it's even better for Clark/Tirone". I'm pointing at Tirone being in goal straight out after he arrived in midseason two years ago. And while some of us (myself AND presumably you too) wondered if that *might* be harsh on Clark, the inescapable fact was the team was winning in front of Tirone - including a road QF playoff series against the eventual D-1 champions ... I don't remember anyone saying "Clark is the superior goalie" at that time.
I agree with the emerging consensus that I'm just hoping one of these guys steps forward - maybe both? - and UNH returns to winning ways, at least in a semi-realistic "middle of the league" way where we get to see some home games in the MBPBEGAM round. If it turns out to be Clark, then I'm going to back him AND admit you called it right. I'm not advocating against a rotation, but I understand why it's the way it is right now. But until Clark forces his way back into contention, then I still think there is more than a whiff of "back-up QB is the most popular guy on a losing team" mentality going on. JMHO (and I promise I'll let you have the last word if you want it).
Disagree, respectfully, with all of you. Frosh goalie leapfrogging established (didn't say great or very good) older players doesn't happen in UmileWorld - you folks all should know better by now.
Besides ... ... it's not like Robinson is tearing it up right now in Dubuque.
100% absolutely true.
Dan - I'm tempted to let this one go, just as something we're never going to agree on. I guess I'm confused a little bit because you claim Clark's positional discipline makes it easier for his team to play around him ... yet in 2014/2015, you've admitted the defense played a lot better in the second half of the season, when Tirone replaced Clark. And this past weekend, again the UNH defense was totally at sea in the Friday loss to SLU when Clark was in goal, yet played their best game of the season against arguably their best opponent on Saturday
when Tirone was back in goal. You also cut Tirone no slack for last season, when his defense was habitually and chronically unable to move the puck out of their own zone against opposition of average-plus quality.
You also mention stats I'm quoting, and beyond wins and losses in the 2014/2015 season, I'm not pointing at save pct. or "let's ignore this game and that game - hey look, now it's even better for Clark/Tirone". I'm pointing at Tirone being in goal straight out after he arrived in midseason two years ago. And while some of us (myself AND presumably you too) wondered if that *might* be harsh on Clark, the inescapable fact was the team was winning in front of Tirone - including a road QF playoff series against the eventual D-1 champions ... I don't remember anyone saying "Clark is the superior goalie" at that time.
I agree with the emerging consensus that I'm just hoping one of these guys steps forward - maybe both? - and UNH returns to winning ways, at least in a semi-realistic "middle of the league" way where we get to see some home games in the MBPBEGAM round. If it turns out to be Clark, then I'm going to back him AND admit you called it right. I'm not advocating against a rotation, but I understand why it's the way it is right now. But until Clark forces his way back into contention, then I still think there is more than a whiff of "back-up QB is the most popular guy on a losing team" mentality going on. JMHO (and I promise I'll let you have the last word if you want it).
You asked for evidence and I gave it to you - A closer look at the stats shows that despite conventional wisdom and hindsight, Tirone really wasn't any better than Clark as a freshman. They show how well Clark was actually playing late in the first half, after settling in and how Tirone had an even more difficult time settling in.
You thought there was no evidence - and now that I've presented it it's not worth discussing anymore?
Did you know Tirone started his career 5-6-1, giving up 45 goals in the process? He then won six straight against Merrimack (2) and Connecticut (4). UConn won ten games that year averaging less than two goals per game (66 goals/36 games), while Mack scored just over two at 2.07. Even Providence scored under three per game - they won with defense (in Clark's one start vs PC, he lost 1-0)...
I understand your skepticism for excluding the MSU and UML starts - but why do you want to judge Clark for his two worst starts and give him no credit for his two starts in 2015? Is it because those two games, essentially on their own, drive the narrative you want to hear? They are the two games that completely drove the narrative on Clark that entire season - in spite of how well he played before and after. They drive the narrative on him to this day...
I gave you Clark's stats in the ten games following those two - do you remember what he did in the two games prior? Just a routine trip into Yost, allowing only three goals on 60 shots, in a weekend split. His career opener - a 3-1 loss at defending national champion Union (two goals on SH breakaways on the same PP).
So, again you asked for evidence and the evidence shows that the idea that Tirone excelled while Clark laid an egg in 2014-15 is clearly an anecdotal myth...
But, you're, right - if you're going to completely misrepresent my argument than we should just move on. What I've consistently said is Clark is a better fit - with his style - behind a shaky defense. Not once have I argued that he makes those around him play better. He's the better fit BECAUSE the defense is so horrible...
And yes, I was advocating for and defending Clark (and unconvinced on Tirone) in the second half of that season, because I took the time to understand what I've laid out in this thread. That's how I remember it so well today...
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e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
Oct 17: Hellebuyck saved just 21 of 24 shots during his loss to the Bruins on Monday. After an excellent 26-game debut last season, Hellebuyck has stumbled out of the gate this year with an .863 save percentage through his first two starts. He's the goalie of the future in Winnipeg, but unless he turns it around quickly, he's in danger of being demoted to the AHL for more fine-tuning. Still, Hellebuyck's upside remains high, and he could easily rebound from this rough start to the season.
Provided by Rotowire.com.
Don't get me wrong Dan, I think Hellebuyck is a good goalie and he sure gave UNH fits.
Carry on....
e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
haha good one! Yeah, seeing him in net brings back the 2013 Regionals for me...ugh. He is one big boy tho...loved the Chara goal (which they took back grrr) on him! Scoreboard...you gotta point there
I'm just here to help
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
Adam Clark is an outstanding person and a very good goalie as the same could be said for Danny Tirone. I do not care which goalie plays and Adam Clark did play well in two games last year against Union and Merrimack. Their save percentages are very close in their college careers and neither has had great defense in front of them during their time at UNH. It does not matter who is playing goalie when the opposition in every game that counts in the standings, has resulted in the opposing team spending 75-80 % of the game in our zone. They both saw more breakaways, 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's this past weekend than probably any team in Division 1. I hope they both play and that they also get some help from the defense. It seems we have size issues versus other teams. Marcus Vela will be back in November and his presence will definitely help. We are one of the few teams that do not run the attacking trap and we have never been able to solve the onslaught that results. We are great in transition if we actually ever leave our end and attack on a quick breakout but we cannot win games no matter who is playing goalie if our goalie sees 40 quality shots and the opposition sees 15. MSU losses were not on Danny Tirone and you are not intellectually honest if you believe otherwise. I suffered through both games and Adam Clark would have done no better when it was constant breakaways 2 on 1. Ken Dryden would have given up 5-7 goals with the same details. Tirone played better this past weekend with one poor positioning goal and Clark is better than he showed against SLU. I know you and Greg love Clark's size and ability to fill the net and I agree that is a big plus. Tirone with confidence is a better goalie overall and they will likely split time throughout the season. Many were Casey Desmith haters too and he had the second highest save percentage in UNH history. I wish Danny T had the same numbers but it would be fair to note he did have better defense than we have had the past few years. We did block a lot of shots particularly on the power play. I know many of you are experts at goaltending so I will defer to you experts but will root for either Adam or Danny at each and every game. I was very depressed after suffering through the SLU game and it did not look good at Clarkson for the better part of the game. We are certainly spending more time in the box than most UNH teams from the past this year and that is not going to help our defensive woes.
The UNH players stated that Chris Miller had the best wrist shot in heavy traffic in hockey east. He will score this year when Vela returns. Umile and the coaches were not involved.
Adam Clark is an outstanding person and a very good goalie as the same could be said for Danny Tirone. I do not care which goalie plays and Adam Clark did play well in two games last year against Union and Merrimack. Their save percentages are very close in their college careers and neither has had great defense in front of them during their time at UNH. It does not matter who is playing goalie when the opposition in every game that counts in the standings, has resulted in the opposing team spending 75-80 % of the game in our zone. They both saw more breakaways, 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's this past weekend than probably any team in Division 1. I hope they both play and that they also get some help from the defense. It seems we have size issues versus other teams. Marcus Vela will be back in November and his presence will definitely help. We are one of the few teams that do not run the attacking trap and we have never been able to solve the onslaught that results. We are great in transition if we actually ever leave our end and attack on a quick breakout but we cannot win games no matter who is playing goalie if our goalie sees 40 quality shots and the opposition sees 15. MSU losses were not on Danny Tirone and you are not intellectually honest if you believe otherwise. I suffered through both games and Adam Clark would have done no better when it was constant breakaways 2 on 1. Ken Dryden would have given up 5-7 goals with the same details. Tirone played better this past weekend with one poor positioning goal and Clark is better than he showed against SLU. I know you and Greg love Clark's size and ability to fill the net and I agree that is a big plus. Tirone with confidence is a better goalie overall and they will likely split time throughout the season. Many were Casey Desmith haters too and he had the second highest save percentage in UNH history. I wish Danny T had the same numbers but it would be fair to note he did have better defense than we have had the past few years. We did block a lot of shots particularly on the power play. I know many of you are experts at goaltending so I will defer to you experts but will root for either Adam or Danny at each and every game. I was very depressed after suffering through the SLU game and it did not look good at Clarkson for the better part of the game. We are certainly spending more time in the box than most UNH teams from the past this year and that is not going to help our defensive woes.
The UNH players stated that Chris Miller had the best wrist shot in heavy traffic in hockey east. He will score this year when Vela returns. Umile and the coaches were not involved.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
Would you agree that they should split the starts?
Would you agree that they should split the starts?
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
I do not know about the others, but I do, which is what I wanted to see in the second half two years ago also. I suggested then that each goalie gets to stay in net until a loss, then the other one rotates in, for which I got laughed off the board.
I do not know about the others, but I do, which is what I wanted to see in the second half two years ago also. I suggested then that each goalie gets to stay in net until a loss, then the other one rotates in, for which I got laughed off the board.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
Yes through the first semester or until one fails miserably I agree with split starts
Yes through the first semester or until one fails miserably I agree with split starts
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!
What do you think the chances are that Coach Umile will see it this way as well?
Appreciate the latest on Vela. Any insight on the return(s) of Hill and/or McNicholas?
Dan - I promised you the last word, so I'll just say I'm not convinced by your latest (or previous), but respect your opinion. And I won't pile on about your alleged intellectual dishonesty either.
What do you think the chances are that Coach Umile will see it this way as well?
Appreciate the latest on Vela. Any insight on the return(s) of Hill and/or McNicholas?
Dan - I promised you the last word, so I'll just say I'm not convinced by your latest (or previous), but respect your opinion. And I won't pile on about your alleged intellectual dishonesty either.
And I won't pile on about your alleged intellectual dishonesty either.
yeah about that - pretty gutsy move by 1932 to accuse me of dishonesty when the video evidence completely contradicts his first hand account. NOT ONE goal that weekend was scored on a break away or an odd man rush. Maybe "recollection" shouldn't be our primary point of evaluation...
Friday - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a5WY_QTDZ2I
Saturday - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x404xcf_mens-hockey-sweeps-michigan-state-in-weekend-series_sport
I'll let people decide for themselves about individual goals and overall performance. I see a lot of Tirone diving back across the crease - but maybe my eyes are being dishonest too...
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e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
I can't pick on Dan on this one. It was precisely Clark's Hellebuyckian proportions that had me fired up for his arrival a few years back.
I don't know how but I missed your post earlier. Not trying to pile on Dan. In fact, I agree with those that say we should at least see a rotation of Clark and Tirone. Anyway, I'm just here to help
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