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UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
- Thread starter C-H-C
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Jacques "Rabbit" Poriveau
Post-coital
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Trust me Chico I not. Mais when you ave de multimillion $ bujet, paying de coach $300K de year, et building a 25M rink dont you confue it wif da Boys Clube eedure eh mon ami.
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Got 6, your perspective comes from Coach Marsh, who is a great teacher -- actually stepping in to teach a class -- and doing college sports like the Small college programs Amherst and Middlebury. That model is fine for St.Lawrence, but UNH is a different animal. The program broke off from the ECAC because it had big dreams, and now had commercialized it so that its no longer a college environment for students, but is instead a corporate experience for businesses. As Jacques points out, Snively was a great facility if you want a non-elite program.
I can see where, from afar, you attribute the rebirth to Umile. Let me fill in the picture.
UNH's prominence from 1974-1983 which gave us NCAA final four, dozens of NHL players. The program lost prominence only during Holt's last years from 83-86, when one of the classiest and succesful coaches and nicest men slowed down (hint, hint) and lost his key recruiting connection (Statford for Holt). As for who pulled them out of that funk, it was energy and new blood of Bob Kullen and Sean Coady (and even Wayne Wilson), and two 1987/88 recruiting classes that had 4 or so NHLers in it. Umile was fortunate that tragedy allowed him to step in to the right situation (and even then, only got that talent to a single NCAA in 1992, that first class's senior year). His unimaginative ways led him to "supplement" this first wave of talent with his guys like Kevin Thomson and Mike Sullivan.
It was only starting with another young energetic recruiter, McCloskey, and the 93-94 class of Nolan, Boguniecki, Murray and 94-95 Mowers, Bekar Nickulas that the current Umile became a perennial NCAA tourney member. And then lo and behold, McCloskey leaves and here we are.
Jacques, as usual nails it. Umile didn't get a lifetime fat paycheck for his graduation rate, his cultivating fine young men, etc. He shrewdly leveraged his 99 season into a lifetime deal, going down to U.Mass and threatening to jump ship unless the U ponied up. If he (or Marty, who bled the bubble by pricing students and regular fans out of the stadium) now wants to complain about undue expectations, f em.
If we're judging quality of mem, then fire Umile for Danny Dries, Joe Charlebois, and force him to live up to his promises to Vranek, Rossman, Bagna, and all the other kids he drove off because they couldn't help him win. And have him recruit non Kinesiology students.
And refund for us the $25 M wasted on a stadium that, according to defenders, only had a 4 year recruiting advantage, and now doesn't help sell the program.
In the end, these two guys are identical (except, of course, Torre actually won something).
Ultimately overpaid based on recent performance. Let's hope Umile gets as affronted at being asked to take a pay cut as Torre did, giving his team a chance at new blood and a championship.
Is there a chance that Umile is Lou Lamouriello, and that once he leaves, the program is sunk by Pooley and Army? I Suppose. But I like my chances.
Got 6, your perspective comes from Coach Marsh, who is a great teacher -- actually stepping in to teach a class -- and doing college sports like the Small college programs Amherst and Middlebury. That model is fine for St.Lawrence, but UNH is a different animal. The program broke off from the ECAC because it had big dreams, and now had commercialized it so that its no longer a college environment for students, but is instead a corporate experience for businesses. As Jacques points out, Snively was a great facility if you want a non-elite program.
I can see where, from afar, you attribute the rebirth to Umile. Let me fill in the picture.
UNH's prominence from 1974-1983 which gave us NCAA final four, dozens of NHL players. The program lost prominence only during Holt's last years from 83-86, when one of the classiest and succesful coaches and nicest men slowed down (hint, hint) and lost his key recruiting connection (Statford for Holt). As for who pulled them out of that funk, it was energy and new blood of Bob Kullen and Sean Coady (and even Wayne Wilson), and two 1987/88 recruiting classes that had 4 or so NHLers in it. Umile was fortunate that tragedy allowed him to step in to the right situation (and even then, only got that talent to a single NCAA in 1992, that first class's senior year). His unimaginative ways led him to "supplement" this first wave of talent with his guys like Kevin Thomson and Mike Sullivan.
It was only starting with another young energetic recruiter, McCloskey, and the 93-94 class of Nolan, Boguniecki, Murray and 94-95 Mowers, Bekar Nickulas that the current Umile became a perennial NCAA tourney member. And then lo and behold, McCloskey leaves and here we are.
Jacques, as usual nails it. Umile didn't get a lifetime fat paycheck for his graduation rate, his cultivating fine young men, etc. He shrewdly leveraged his 99 season into a lifetime deal, going down to U.Mass and threatening to jump ship unless the U ponied up. If he (or Marty, who bled the bubble by pricing students and regular fans out of the stadium) now wants to complain about undue expectations, f em.
If we're judging quality of mem, then fire Umile for Danny Dries, Joe Charlebois, and force him to live up to his promises to Vranek, Rossman, Bagna, and all the other kids he drove off because they couldn't help him win. And have him recruit non Kinesiology students.
And refund for us the $25 M wasted on a stadium that, according to defenders, only had a 4 year recruiting advantage, and now doesn't help sell the program.
In the end, these two guys are identical (except, of course, Torre actually won something).
Ultimately overpaid based on recent performance. Let's hope Umile gets as affronted at being asked to take a pay cut as Torre did, giving his team a chance at new blood and a championship.
Is there a chance that Umile is Lou Lamouriello, and that once he leaves, the program is sunk by Pooley and Army? I Suppose. But I like my chances.
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billb
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
This is really all very interesting, what with the usual sycophants and the post-season interlopers sneaking in their opinions to which they are, of course, entitled. It is difficult to understand UNH hockey for an outsider, and I've suffered through the travails as long as anyone here.
The bottom line at a big-time program is winning. I am so pleased that Dick can tie a four-in-hand knot with a pleat, but the power play is still pathetic. Players do not stay focused. Proper adjustments are not made.
And for arguments, no one's nailed anything. I didn't get the stats on the Niagara fiasco or this year's debacle with RIT regarding future NHL players on each squad, but it doesn't matter any more than the meaningless stats Dover presented.
Mr. Umile has his strengths and he has his weaknesses.
But when I read Watcher's implication of how Mr. Umile guaranteed his financial future, it truly made me see where his loyalties lie.
This is really all very interesting, what with the usual sycophants and the post-season interlopers sneaking in their opinions to which they are, of course, entitled. It is difficult to understand UNH hockey for an outsider, and I've suffered through the travails as long as anyone here.
The bottom line at a big-time program is winning. I am so pleased that Dick can tie a four-in-hand knot with a pleat, but the power play is still pathetic. Players do not stay focused. Proper adjustments are not made.
And for arguments, no one's nailed anything. I didn't get the stats on the Niagara fiasco or this year's debacle with RIT regarding future NHL players on each squad, but it doesn't matter any more than the meaningless stats Dover presented.
Mr. Umile has his strengths and he has his weaknesses.
But when I read Watcher's implication of how Mr. Umile guaranteed his financial future, it truly made me see where his loyalties lie.
Got 6 Want More
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
NCAA Watcher, you are obviously closer to it than I am, but I stand by my defense of Umile. The comparison to Joe Torre is completely unfair. Torre is one of the best managers in baseball and actually the only thing about the Yankees that doesn't make me want to puke. Had the Yankees boosted their payroll with guys like Texiera under Torre, then who knows. This is college athletics. If you can't 'buy' a team, you have to leverage what you can offer. UNH is not in Boston, is not competitive academically with BC (or probably even BU or UVM on a state school level), yet they still were Regular Season champs.
We all know the assistant coaches do the really hard work. They go out and evaluate talent and spend night after night in junior hockey rinks, but there is a lot more too it, there is being able to get the guys you go after, sell them on the entire package, and beyond that there is a bit of luck involved that every now and then an unknown recruit turns into a Bobby Butler.
Yes, Marsh is a special coach and educator, but even the very solid degree offered by SLU, the great coach, the local proximity and family connections was not enough to get Joe Charlebois to attend SLU over UNH. I think the big picture is you have to look at the total package a program offers. When a kid can get a degree from a top school like Notre Dame, Miami, Denver, CC or BC; when the kid can play in a brand new facility, get a ton of exposure, and in some cases play in a populated area with good fan support from both the students and local folks, the competition for the premier talent is incredibly keen. UNH, frankly, has some disadvantages compared to other programs that has nothing to do with the coaches. Again, Umile deals with that, and still wins. He won the RS championship this year and is in the hunt for the HE and NCAA tourney EVERY single year.
Commericalized or not, this is not the pros. UNH is there every year and in my opinion that is even tougher than winning it once. And, who would you hire to replace Umile?? I think Ted Donato is a good example of how a 'can't miss' alum can miss. There are lots of assistant coaches that don't make good head coaches. You have three programs in similar situations in HE with Maine, Vermont and Mass, and UNH is generally on top of them every year in the standings. If I were a UNH fan, I would be thrilled with the job Umile has done and even if I got frustrated with him I'd really have to wonder who I could hire that could do a better job.
NCAA Watcher, you are obviously closer to it than I am, but I stand by my defense of Umile. The comparison to Joe Torre is completely unfair. Torre is one of the best managers in baseball and actually the only thing about the Yankees that doesn't make me want to puke. Had the Yankees boosted their payroll with guys like Texiera under Torre, then who knows. This is college athletics. If you can't 'buy' a team, you have to leverage what you can offer. UNH is not in Boston, is not competitive academically with BC (or probably even BU or UVM on a state school level), yet they still were Regular Season champs.
We all know the assistant coaches do the really hard work. They go out and evaluate talent and spend night after night in junior hockey rinks, but there is a lot more too it, there is being able to get the guys you go after, sell them on the entire package, and beyond that there is a bit of luck involved that every now and then an unknown recruit turns into a Bobby Butler.
Yes, Marsh is a special coach and educator, but even the very solid degree offered by SLU, the great coach, the local proximity and family connections was not enough to get Joe Charlebois to attend SLU over UNH. I think the big picture is you have to look at the total package a program offers. When a kid can get a degree from a top school like Notre Dame, Miami, Denver, CC or BC; when the kid can play in a brand new facility, get a ton of exposure, and in some cases play in a populated area with good fan support from both the students and local folks, the competition for the premier talent is incredibly keen. UNH, frankly, has some disadvantages compared to other programs that has nothing to do with the coaches. Again, Umile deals with that, and still wins. He won the RS championship this year and is in the hunt for the HE and NCAA tourney EVERY single year.
Commericalized or not, this is not the pros. UNH is there every year and in my opinion that is even tougher than winning it once. And, who would you hire to replace Umile?? I think Ted Donato is a good example of how a 'can't miss' alum can miss. There are lots of assistant coaches that don't make good head coaches. You have three programs in similar situations in HE with Maine, Vermont and Mass, and UNH is generally on top of them every year in the standings. If I were a UNH fan, I would be thrilled with the job Umile has done and even if I got frustrated with him I'd really have to wonder who I could hire that could do a better job.
billb
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Well, you aren't a UNH fan, and I don't understand why you are so involved in this. You haven't endured the year-in, year-out choke jobs in the playoffs. You haven't endured the inability to sweep the weak sisters on home-and-away weekends. You haven't endured the inability of a coaching staff to solve the trap. You haven't endured the inability of a coaching staff to develop a viable power play. Shall I go on?
The point is and was made several years ago that Mr. Umile is a decent man and a decent coach. He is not, however, the man to lead UNH to the Holy Grail because he does not have the gear. The University is not going to ask for his head. He, as the Pope, is going to die on the job.
Well, you aren't a UNH fan, and I don't understand why you are so involved in this. You haven't endured the year-in, year-out choke jobs in the playoffs. You haven't endured the inability to sweep the weak sisters on home-and-away weekends. You haven't endured the inability of a coaching staff to solve the trap. You haven't endured the inability of a coaching staff to develop a viable power play. Shall I go on?
The point is and was made several years ago that Mr. Umile is a decent man and a decent coach. He is not, however, the man to lead UNH to the Holy Grail because he does not have the gear. The University is not going to ask for his head. He, as the Pope, is going to die on the job.
Got 6 Want More
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Who is going to lead UNH to the Holy Grail?? Who could if Umile got out of the way who would take the job?
I am curious, who has NH lost key recruiting battles to recently and on which players?
Part of the issue may be the decision to put an Olympic sheet in the Whit. Maybe the pro prospects want to play on a 200 x 85 sheet and it is a liability?
As for the rest, I am a fan of college hockey and I follow UNH albeit passively compared to the team I support. Yeah, UNH hasn't won an NCAA title, but neither have about 55 other teams some which are elite. I have watched my team struggle with a horendous power play pretty much for the last 9 years, some underachieving teams, some overachieving teams and pretty much everything in between. I guess we just have different ways of measuring success! Gwozdecky and Blasi have come up short too the last few years. Canning them would be a travesty. Perhaps, the Umile supporters here haven't answered the criticisms about Umile, but those calling for a new direction haven't answered who can do a better job.
Who is going to lead UNH to the Holy Grail?? Who could if Umile got out of the way who would take the job?
I am curious, who has NH lost key recruiting battles to recently and on which players?
Part of the issue may be the decision to put an Olympic sheet in the Whit. Maybe the pro prospects want to play on a 200 x 85 sheet and it is a liability?
As for the rest, I am a fan of college hockey and I follow UNH albeit passively compared to the team I support. Yeah, UNH hasn't won an NCAA title, but neither have about 55 other teams some which are elite. I have watched my team struggle with a horendous power play pretty much for the last 9 years, some underachieving teams, some overachieving teams and pretty much everything in between. I guess we just have different ways of measuring success! Gwozdecky and Blasi have come up short too the last few years. Canning them would be a travesty. Perhaps, the Umile supporters here haven't answered the criticisms about Umile, but those calling for a new direction haven't answered who can do a better job.
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e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
Got 6 Want More
New member
e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
Got 6 Want More
New member
i'zonprize
GRANITE STATE PRIDE
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Watcher.. I started out agreeing with you more often than not- when I first started reading this site yrs ago.. but here you're playing both sides of the fence- and you know it! You applauded Fortney last yr for making the most of his college experience- but then infer here- that UNH shouldn't be recruiting Fortney types (not recruiting Kinesiology majors) WHAT IS THAT? For 4 yrs that kid busted his hump on the 'havoc' line and PK and did a fine job at it as well. And you were correct to give him praise.. But. It's seems a little odd to now infer that the school shouldn't recruit kids like him, don't you think?
As for kids leaving.. are you kidding? Programs across the country don't lose kids because they are not satisfied with their own ice time or roll on the team? C'mon now.
Watcher, clearly you are a frustrated, yet pationate fan- but I'm not sure that any coach/team could fullfill the expectations that you seem to have. UNH has it's issues- but they aren't alone..
Watcher.. I started out agreeing with you more often than not- when I first started reading this site yrs ago.. but here you're playing both sides of the fence- and you know it! You applauded Fortney last yr for making the most of his college experience- but then infer here- that UNH shouldn't be recruiting Fortney types (not recruiting Kinesiology majors) WHAT IS THAT? For 4 yrs that kid busted his hump on the 'havoc' line and PK and did a fine job at it as well. And you were correct to give him praise.. But. It's seems a little odd to now infer that the school shouldn't recruit kids like him, don't you think?
As for kids leaving.. are you kidding? Programs across the country don't lose kids because they are not satisfied with their own ice time or roll on the team? C'mon now.
Watcher, clearly you are a frustrated, yet pationate fan- but I'm not sure that any coach/team could fullfill the expectations that you seem to have. UNH has it's issues- but they aren't alone..
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Carmine Scarpaglia
My bad.
snively
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
By the way, since NH has zero income and sales tax, those who are annoyed at Umile income pay exactly $0 of the salary that's being complained about below. Unless they CHOOSE to buy a ticket, of course...
Some people apparently derive more pleasure from btching and moaning about the national titles (clearly a God-given right) they've been deprived of than from seeing the upside of this perennially competitive and clean program. To each his own.
By the way, since NH has zero income and sales tax, those who are annoyed at Umile income pay exactly $0 of the salary that's being complained about below. Unless they CHOOSE to buy a ticket, of course...
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Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
There *are* additional taxes, though. Right?
Or do y'alls really fund your state government by charging Mainers to go to Massachusetts?
There *are* additional taxes, though. Right?
Or do y'alls really fund your state government by charging Mainers to go to Massachusetts?
i'zonprize
GRANITE STATE PRIDE
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
Can't students and Alum sit in different sections??.. Seems to me more of a travesty to not have rowdy fans for the team- than to bother the alum with a different seating arrangement.. My guess if little RIT can get 500 or so students to jump on busses and pony up for tickets then UNH can do it too if it wants to.. UMASS and UVM also do a great job of getting students to the Garden in HE play. Few yrs back (when UNH lost to MSU in Albany) MSU had 2 full sections of students and alumn all going bananas. I know there are a handfull of very pationate fans(that aren't also 40-50-60yr old alum) that go to the games and cheer- And I don't mean to put down my fellow alum, but lets face it, we're not going to stand, chant, cheer and hollar continuously through a game. There was a crew of guys who painted HOBEYBUTLER on themselves yesterday.. but it seems to me that somehow somewhere the Student Body can become better organized with this. To me- if this is the $ maker for the school, they'd also want to encourage as much energy and excitement around it as possible. But that's me..
Can't students and Alum sit in different sections??.. Seems to me more of a travesty to not have rowdy fans for the team- than to bother the alum with a different seating arrangement.. My guess if little RIT can get 500 or so students to jump on busses and pony up for tickets then UNH can do it too if it wants to.. UMASS and UVM also do a great job of getting students to the Garden in HE play. Few yrs back (when UNH lost to MSU in Albany) MSU had 2 full sections of students and alumn all going bananas. I know there are a handfull of very pationate fans(that aren't also 40-50-60yr old alum) that go to the games and cheer- And I don't mean to put down my fellow alum, but lets face it, we're not going to stand, chant, cheer and hollar continuously through a game. There was a crew of guys who painted HOBEYBUTLER on themselves yesterday.. but it seems to me that somehow somewhere the Student Body can become better organized with this. To me- if this is the $ maker for the school, they'd also want to encourage as much energy and excitement around it as possible. But that's me..
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i'zonprize
GRANITE STATE PRIDE
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
hey Carmine.. seriously.. why would you name yourself after a fictitious character who's only known for getting the $hit kicked out of him by Matt Damon/Will Hunting? Was Skylar (damon's lady friend in the movie for those not familiar)already taken?
hey Carmine.. seriously.. why would you name yourself after a fictitious character who's only known for getting the $hit kicked out of him by Matt Damon/Will Hunting? Was Skylar (damon's lady friend in the movie for those not familiar)already taken?
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snively
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats - '10 Playoff Edition
On the first -- yes, town property taxes (pretty sure Umile gets none of those
), and some some other levies aimed largely at tourists (hotel rooms, etc.).
Well there's that (plus the reverse), and of course all the liquor stores on the interstates as well. Thanks.There *are* additional taxes, though. Right?
Or do y'alls really fund your state government by charging Mainers to go to Massachusetts?
On the first -- yes, town property taxes (pretty sure Umile gets none of those
), and some some other levies aimed largely at tourists (hotel rooms, etc.).- Status