UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

[norbert]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Wyse was a Dartmouth commit who if I recall correctly had an academic admissions issue that led to us being able to nab him. Maass was uncommitted and brought in after his senior high school season (after finishing out that season in juniors) which was probably earlier than anyone else talking to him was willing to offer. We had the bad fortunes of being very short on our defensive side at the time that led to the good furtunes of having space when Gildon, Wyse, Maass, Mackinnon, and now Reid were suddenly available. It's not a good primary strategy to wait for someone else to leave you talents of that level but it was a great way to jump start what has been a climb out of the basement.

I hear a lot of concern over the playoffs this year and I get it. What we are seeing this year is a very strange set of standings and the unfortunate thing is one team that has had a very good season is going to be left out. I honestly hope it is not UNH but if it is I will in no way consider it a wasted season or a bad one. Whatever happens I would hope that we can build on it and continue the progress that has occurred in the 2 years under MS7. From what we have seen this year this team can go into Mullins and win, they can go into Schneider and win, so just get into the playoffs and who knows what can happen. Again, if they are the odd man out it will be a tough break but I'll take the results of this season as a net positive.

I'm going to keep out of the "thumbs up, thumbs down" on Gildon. All I am going to say is (Disclaimer: no inside information) watching him develop different parts of his game this season and now seeing him being paired with different (FR/SO) players I think there is a chance that this is not his last season at UNH.

Speaking of Maass and trending in the right direction, points and +/-

Freshman: 17 -9
Sophomore: 6 -10
Junior: 10 +11

 

[Ray Dorn]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

People on this thread have brought up the +/- statistic many times in the past to measure the performance of the defensemen. The +/- is one of the most flawed statistics.

How does the +/- work when the goalie is pulled late in the game by the team that is down by one or two goals?

How does the +/- work when their is a delayed penalty called so the team going on the power play pulls the goalie for an extra attacker for a 6 on 5 situation and they score a goal?

How does the +/- work when a team gets scored against a couple of seconds after their penalty expires?

There are times where a player earns an assist on a goal, but is not credited with a +. The player makes a good pass that leads to a goal being scored, but goes to the players bench for a line change before the goal is actually scored.

Typically, when a minus situation occurs (goal against) there are six players on the ice. The goal against could be one or two players fault, but five of them get a minus on the play.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Wow, just catching up on the excellent thoughtful discussion here while watching the B's flame out to the Dead Wings for the fifth consecutive time, and now C's in a battle at OKC this afternoon. I should be outside skiing, but I am inside working as I watch. During the first half of the C's game, there was a shout out to Libby's Bar and Grill in Durham, N.H., but I missed the context.

Chuck, because you wrote "45 years," I assumed that you were placing Gildon as the best blueliner at UNH since Langway, even if completely different styies of play.

 

[e.cat]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Offensive defenseman are highly sought after at the next level. Remember, mistakes defensemen make are much more obvious than mistakes forwards make. Bad turnovers in the D-zone can very often lead to grade A scoring chances. Defensemen are often maligned for these miscues by what I call the casual observer.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Offensive defenseman are highly sought after at the next level. Remember, mistakes defensemen make are much more obvious than mistakes forwards make. Bad turnovers in the D-zone can very often lead to grade A scoring chances. Defensemen are often maligned for these miscues by what I call the casual observer.

Excellent point. Whenever I hear complaining from fans sitting around me about something that happens out there, it's usually directed to a dman...never thought about it that way but your observations are right on sir!!

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Now for general thoughts on Gildon:

Why are quarterbacks in football involved in so many turnovers? Because they handle the football more than all other players on a football team. I believe we would all be shocked how many times Gildon handles the puck in a game. If somebody, maybe Dan, had the time to track how many puck touches all six defensemen had in the Vermont game last night I would not be surprised if Gildon had almost as many as the other five defensemen combined.

There are different styles of defensemen in the game of hockey. The best example I can thing of right now is Scott Niedermayer and Scott Stevens of the New Jersey Devils of the past. Niedermayer was more of a finesse, puck possession defenseman and Stevens was more of a physical, hard hitting defenseman. Both very good defensemen, but very different in their style of play. Sorta like Gildon and Wyse. Do you think their coaches with the Devils told Niedermayer that he needed to be a hard hitting defenseman like Stevens? I highly doubt it. And I doubt the UNH coaches want Gildon to check like Wyse. Some people believe all defensemen should play like Scott Stevens, while other people have a higher hockey intelligence and realize that Orr, Coffey, Niedermayer were very good defensemen in their way of playing the game.

If Tom Brady were to have challenged every linebacker by lowering his shoulder and trying to run them over for an extra yard or two he would have spent have of his career injured and not playing. His career would have been done years ago.

There is no question that Max handled the puck more than even most players last night. As mentioned, I made it a point to really watch his game more than usual. He does the lion's share out there esp on the PP. He is an offensive dman, there's no q about that either. I may be a new comer but at this point, I know that at the next level he plays at he will be expected to also be a player who can bang it out too. I think of a player like Torey Krug; the guy is amazing but has been criticized about his lack of defensive work? There's been a big up tick in his game this season in that regard I think. Look at Charlie McAvoy...doesn't score a goal all season until the other day. But boy is he one tough defenseman.

Sure, Max doesn't want to get hurt who can blame him? He has gone through shoulder surgery. Can't say I blame him...at the same time we need all players to get ready to rock and roll the next few games or it's an early out. Go 'Cats!!

 

[Snively65]

There is no question that Max handled the puck more than even most players last night. As mentioned, I made it a point to really watch his game more than usual. He does the lion's share out there esp on the PP. He is an offensive dman, there's no q about that either. I may be a new comer but at this point, I know that at the next level he plays at he will be expected to also be a player who can bang it out too. I think of a player like Torey Krug; the guy is amazing but has been criticized about his lack of defensive work? There's been a big up tick in his game this season in that regard I think. Look at Charlie McAvoy...doesn't score a goal all season until the other day. But boy is he one tough defenseman.

Sure, Max doesn't want to get hurt who can blame him? He has gone through shoulder surgery. Can't say I blame him...at the same time we need all players to get ready to rock and roll the next few games or it's an early out. Go 'Cats!!

Torey Krug racing up ice for helmetless hit on Robert Thomas in game 1 of 2019 SC probably earned him next contract in Boston.

 

[e.cat]

Excellent point. Whenever I hear complaining from fans sitting around me about something that happens out there, it's usually directed to a dman...never thought about it that way but your observations are right on sir!!

You warm my heart Ref;-)

 

[e.cat]

Torey Krug racing up ice for helmetless hit on Robert Thomas in game 1 of 2019 SC probably earned him next contract in Boston.

Hammer, head, nail

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Hammer, head, nail

That's my SCOOORRREEYYY KRUUUGGGGG!! (maybe not the best nickname he could score more, but, works for this B's fan!!)

 

[e.cat]

That's my SCOOORRREEYYY KRUUUGGGGG!! (maybe not the best nickname he could score more, but, works for this B's fan!!)

Absolutely! Love his game

Pesce same genre.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Would like to correct a statement I made earlier regarding how Benton M and Anthony W came to UNH. My post made it seem like they were 'walk ons' and that is not true. A quick review and question to C-H-C cleared that up for me...FWIW dept!! Both were recruited by Mike Souza/Glenn Stewart. Just the same...how lucky we are that they are Wildcats!!

http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/meet-unh-commit-anthony-wyse.html?m=1

http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2017/01/minnesotan-benton-maass-commits-to-unh.html?m=1

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Ray seems to have been pretty active on here today. Let's review ...

I am not a fan of calling out players by name for their mistakes. I feel it is inappropriate. I could call out the same two defensemen that were on the ice for the first two goals against UConn in the Friday night game, but I will not. I could call out the forwards that did not execute their defensive responsibilities, but I will not. I do not think it is in the best interest of any college program!

Can you explain why you feel it's "inappropriate" to call out college players by name? Most if not all are legally adults, and if you're concerned about doing someone else's scouting work for them, rest assured, these programs scout each other plenty, in person and/or via video. Is it a self-esteem thing, and if so, does something magical happen in a year or two when these guys go on to play in the pros at some level? I can see if you're the kid's coach, you might want to keep that in house ... but fans??

I did not post my thoughts about the UConn weekend earlier because I did not want to be too negative, but I am going to share my main thoughts about it now. I will get to Gildon later.

My main thoughts on the UConn games:
1. The whole team was not prepared to play. I think the team under rated them and thought they could just show up and win.
2. The goaltending was no where close to the goaltending level of the previous weekend.
3. The team did not execute their defensive responsibilities very well. There were two goals against UNH on the Friday night game where two of our players went to check their player with the puck. The second goal against on the Friday night two of our forwards went out to the same point man. The third goal against was a pass below the goal line to a wide open player in the mid-slot, etc.
4. The team seemed slow transitioning from defense to offense and from offensive to defense.
5. The UConn team is considerably bigger than UNH forwards. They were beating us to the puck and winning the vast majority of the puck battles. UNH does not match up well with the bigger, more physical opponents (UConn and Maine). I am sure Dan could do the statistics on the size of our average forward versus the size of the average UConn player!

Now for general thoughts on Gildon:

Why are quarterbacks in football involved in so many turnovers? Because they handle the football more than all other players on a football team. I believe we would all be shocked how many times Gildon handles the puck in a game. If somebody, maybe Dan, had the time to track how many puck touches all six defensemen had in the Vermont game last night I would not be surprised if Gildon had almost as many as the other five defensemen combined.

There are different styles of defensemen in the game of hockey. The best example I can thing of right now is Scott Niedermayer and Scott Stevens of the New Jersey Devils of the past. Niedermayer was more of a finesse, puck possession defenseman and Stevens was more of a physical, hard hitting defenseman. Both very good defensemen, but very different in their style of play. Sorta like Gildon and Wyse. Do you think their coaches with the Devils told Niedermayer that he needed to be a hard hitting defenseman like Stevens? I highly doubt it. And I doubt the UNH coaches want Gildon to check like Wyse. Some people believe all defensemen should play like Scott Stevens, while other people have a higher hockey intelligence and realize that Orr, Coffey, Niedermayer were very good defensemen in their way of playing the game.

If Tom Brady were to have challenged every linebacker by lowering his shoulder and trying to run them over for an extra yard or two he would have spent have of his career injured and not playing. His career would have been done years ago.

I must have missed the memo where Dan was appointed as your secretary and/or research assistant.

People on this thread have brought up the +/- statistic many times in the past to measure the performance of the defensemen. The +/- is one of the most flawed statistics.

How does the +/- work when the goalie is pulled late in the game by the team that is down by one or two goals?

How does the +/- work when their is a delayed penalty called so the team going on the power play pulls the goalie for an extra attacker for a 6 on 5 situation and they score a goal?

How does the +/- work when a team gets scored against a couple of seconds after their penalty expires?

There are times where a player earns an assist on a goal, but is not credited with a +. The player makes a good pass that leads to a goal being scored, but goes to the players bench for a line change before the goal is actually scored.

Typically, when a minus situation occurs (goal against) there are six players on the ice. The goal against could be one or two players fault, but five of them get a minus on the play.

I don't think any statistic is "perfect", and almost every one is "flawed" in some way. You've outlined some specific instances where a player or players might get "dinged" unfairly, and there are also other situations where players can get a plus "boost" by just being in the right place at the right time. But I think the overall point is that, in the big picture, some of those data bits tend to even themselves out. You have to be a very (un)lucky player to end up double-digits plus OR minus, and have it not being a reflection of that player's overall circumstances that season. Somewhere on this thread a couple of weeks ago, one of the posters mentioned that Alex Ovechkin once had a huge negative. Turned out, his team had a (rare) terrible season, and he might not have been as motivated as he usually was/is at most other times in his future HoF career.

I like to consider myself more of an "eyeball" assessor of talent - something that's gotten a bad name in other sports, especially baseball - but I do think data gives someone a fall-back test to double-check whether what you're seeing with your eyeballs is backed up more objectively. Anyone who has followed my posts knows I am far from sold on the value of stats in hockey. If nothing else, it does give us all something to talk about.

But it's especially hard to measure the defensive value players bring to their teams without taking plus-minus somehow into consideration. Once upon a time, NHL guys like Bob Gainey and Doug Jarvis were considered two of the best defensive forwards in the game, playing for Scotty Bowman in Montreal during their late '70's run of 4 straight Cups. He'd play those guys against the opposition's best players, regularly, and they would more than hold their own. freeing up the Habs' top two lines to rake against the lesser lines put out by their opponents. I think plus/minus originated in Montreal, and started to come into prominence around that time, although it had been originally introduced about a decade before that. It was a time where Montreal was the dominant force in the sport for two-plus decades; whether plus/minus was a stat that provided them with a competitive edge or not ... who really knows?

 

[Snively65]

Ray seems to have been pretty active on here today. Let's review ...



Can you explain why you feel it's "inappropriate" to call out college players by name? Most if not all are legally adults, and if you're concerned about doing someone else's scouting work for them, rest assured, these programs scout each other plenty, in person and/or via video. Is it a self-esteem thing, and if so, does something magical happen in a year or two when these guys go on to play in the pros at some level? I can see if you're the kid's coach, you might want to keep that in house ... but fans??







I must have missed the memo where Dan was appointed as your secretary and/or research assistant.



I don't think any statistic is "perfect", and almost every one is "flawed" in some way. You've outlined some specific instances where a player or players might get "dinged" unfairly, and there are also other situations where players can get a plus "boost" by just being in the right place at the right time. But I think the overall point is that, in the big picture, some of those data bits tend to even themselves out. You have to be a very (un)lucky player to end up double-digits plus OR minus, and have it not being a reflection of that player's overall circumstances that season. Somewhere on this thread a couple of weeks ago, one of the posters mentioned that Alex Ovechkin once had a huge negative. Turned out, his team had a (rare) terrible season, and he might not have been as motivated as he usually was/is at most other times in his future HoF career.

I like to consider myself more of an "eyeball" assessor of talent - something that's gotten a bad name in other sports, especially baseball - but I do think data gives someone a fall-back test to double-check whether what you're seeing with your eyeballs is backed up more objectively. Anyone who has followed my posts knows I am far from sold on the value of stats in hockey. If nothing else, it does give us all something to talk about.

But it's especially hard to measure the defensive value players bring to their teams without taking plus-minus somehow into consideration. Once upon a time, NHL guys like Bob Gainey and Doug Jarvis were considered two of the best defensive forwards in the game, playing for Scotty Bowman in Montreal during their late '70's run of 4 straight Cups. He'd play those guys against the opposition's best players, regularly, and they would more than hold their own. freeing up the Habs' top two lines to rake against the lesser lines put out by their opponents. I think plus/minus originated in Montreal, and started to come into prominence around that time, although it had been originally introduced about a decade before that. It was a time where Montreal was the dominant force in the sport for two-plus decades; whether plus/minus was a stat that provided them with a competitive edge or not ... who really knows?

With the exception of SOG and FOW, of course.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

I hear your point Ray, regarding how talking about a player may have not be a good thing...and I hope you'll continue to be part of the conversation here! One thing I'd say in defense of not calling out players in a public forum is that it could be seen in a negative way for prospects looking at the program. "If their fans are going to be like that do I really wanna play there"? kind of thing. Well, to that I would say that obviously this board doesn't even come close to representing any school's fan base. That said, how much it could factor in remains to be seen. (it probably has zero effect...most likely...on a prospect deciding to play at a school where the fans on a message board sometimes calls out players in a 'negative' light; but, who knows?)

Of course these guys are student athletes, not the Bruins; we have to cognizant of this fact and it's easy to get caught up in it and lose sight of this. They have a lot more going on in their lives than playing hockey, even though we think that's all they should be concentrating on! I think that overall we are respectful to our players, some would debate this with some recent posts. I would certainly coach my players to take any comments about them on a public message board with a huge grain of salt; better yet, don't read it at all might be a better idea. People are pretty thin skinned these days thanks to the social media hype of being loved at all, and any, costs.

One could say 'it comes with the territory' and if you are in the lime light, you will inevitably run into the negative. You'll have to suck it up. I think its ok to expect a group to behave with some decorum, even a message board like this...we have an obligation to remember who we are really talking about. That doesn't mean a fan base can't discuss a team (or players) shortcomings. It's part of athletics; and it doesn't mean you can't have expectations on a player either. Respect still applies I'm thinking!

 

[UNH1932]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Benton Maass was recruited by Glenn and Mike. He came in as true freshman and terrific defensemen.

Wyse was originally a Dartmouth recruit. He and his family decided UNH was the best place for him.

Gildon was originally a Wisconsin recruit and Mike and Glenn hit a three home-runs over 3 years.

The younger defensemen are rock solid with Verrier and McKinnon playing together this year in the top 5.

Erickson is another big win and we have a few star defensemen in the pipeline.

I urge as always that it does not help to beat up players on the UNH thread.

I hope to see some of you at the rink on Valentine's Day and bring the wife for BU game.

 

[Ray Dorn]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

The reasons why I am against criticizing a player(s) on this forum is for a couple of reasons. First, I agree with what HockeyRef said about it last night. It is not good for recruiting. Yes, the people on this forum is a very small percentage of the UNH supporters, but it could seem like they are a higher percentage. Prospective student-athletes pick a college based on many different criteria. I just wouldn't want a hockey player not to choice UNH partly because of the negativity of a school's fan base. It is not a good thing seeing people criticizing former players and current players of a college hockey team. This forum has been around before the current college hockey players were born. Second, I am sure the UNH athletic department, coaching staff and players all know of it. I am also pretty sure the coaches have told all of the players to stay off of this forum, don't post and don't read it. But the odds are that at least one or two players do read this forum and what is said is passed on to the other players. From my experience more than half of the criticism on this forum over the years is not accurate for various reasons.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

Unlike Ray, I think it is within bounds to assess a player’s skills and point out the pluses and minuses. I have been doing this verbally at UNH since I saw my first game 50 years ago this coming December and on line at Hockey L (anybody know what I am referring to?) and this forum since the late nineties. Back twenty years ago there was one particular UNH defenseman who was subject to much ridicule by several posters on this forum and his father came on here and gave a us all an earful. I am sure Chuck remembers that.

This all brings me to Max Gildon. Because of medical issues which first arose last September, this past Saturday was the first game I have seen in person this year. I have to say that my take on Gildon remains unchanged. On the positive side, he is a very good skater, certainly not at Krug’s level, but above average. I have always been impressed with his ability to make tight turns in a small radius to escape a forecheck. He also makes the good first pass out of the zone those times when he doesn’t skate the puck out himself. And, of course, he has a great shot, accurate most of the time. He does have the most physical ability on the team by a long shot. But, Dan, here’s the but. At times I think he is brain dead. His pass to a covered defenseman which led to the shorthand goal Saturday was inexcusable. With UNH a man up, UVM was committing one and almost two to the forecheck. If my math is right that left the possibility of an odd man rush if Gildon had played with his head up and surveyed the ice before he made a play. The second play that was a head scratcher to me was on another power play. He had the puck on the left point. Right point was open, guy in right face off circle was open. He could have made either pass. Instead he skates to the right point, forcing the guy on the right point to go to the circle and the guy at the circle to go behind the net. Then he goes to the circle, the guy there has to go behind the net, and the cycle continues. Gildon fires a shot on net that is easily saved. I turn to my buddy, who has watched as much hockey as I have over the decades and asked “what was the purpose of that?” All it did was waste 10 seconds of the PP. I’d say my core complaint is not the nit picking I just did but his overall vision of the game. I’ve seen many great college hockey players over the years, including ones at UNH from Gordie Clark to Bob Miller to Mowers, Krog and Haydar. What they all had that separated them from their peers was to see the game two or three steps ahead. And they were doing it at the age Gildon is now, so his being 20 with almost three years under his belt is no excuse. Mind you, he’s not the only one in this generation of college players who seems to be this way. I see plenty of high skilled play by kids 18 or 19 years old, but the ones who have that special gift are few and far between IMO and Gildon is not one of them.

 

[deltabravo62]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

The second play that was a head scratcher to me was on another power play. He had the puck on the left point. Right point was open, guy in right face off circle was open. He could have made either pass. Instead he skates to the right point, forcing the guy on the right point to go to the circle and the guy at the circle to go behind the net. Then he goes to the circle, the guy there has to go behind the net, and the cycle continues. Gildon fires a shot on net that is easily saved. I turn to my buddy, who has watched as much hockey as I have over the decades and asked “what was the purpose of that?” All it did was waste 10 seconds of the PP. I’d say my core complaint is not the nit picking I just did but his overall vision of the game. I’ve seen many great college hockey players over the years, including ones at UNH from Gordie Clark to Bob Miller to Mowers, Krog and Haydar. What they all had that separated them from their peers was to see the game two or three steps ahead. And they were doing it at the age Gildon is now, so his being 20 with almost three years under his belt is no excuse. Mind you, he’s not the only one in this generation of college players who seems to be this way. I see plenty of high skilled play by kids 18 or 19 years old, but the ones who have that special gift are few and far between IMO and Gildon is not one of them.

In reference to this powerplay situation. I have noticed this a lot especially lately. The first group has a set formation, Pierson is in the middle at the blue line, Gildon at the right and Grasso on the left at the tops of the circles, Crookshank in the middle between the dots, and Macadams right at the net front. If this formation breaks down (particularly Gildon, Grasso, and Pierson end up in different places) to retrieve a rebound or to get the puck from a defender, and say Pierson ends up at the left side, Grasso center high, and Gildon on the left. They will take the time to get into their formation and forego any potential open passes or shots until they are in their known and comfortable formation. It usually takes 10-20 seconds off the powerplay for them to do that, I see it a lot and I would place that problem on the coaches if the players are uncomfortable going with an unconventional formation vs wasting the time to reset immediately once they have possession.

 

[Ray Dorn]

Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

In reference to this powerplay situation. I have noticed this a lot especially lately. The first group has a set formation, Pierson is in the middle at the blue line, Gildon at the right and Grasso on the left at the tops of the circles, Crookshank in the middle between the dots, and Macadams right at the net front. If this formation breaks down (particularly Gildon, Grasso, and Pierson end up in different places) to retrieve a rebound or to get the puck from a defender, and say Pierson ends up at the left side, Grasso center high, and Gildon on the left. They will take the time to get into their formation and forego any potential open passes or shots until they are in their known and comfortable formation. It usually takes 10-20 seconds off the powerplay for them to do that, I see it a lot and I would place that problem on the coaches if the players are uncomfortable going with an unconventional formation vs wasting the time to reset immediately once they have possession.

Deltabravo62,

Very good response to Greg's post about the powerplay. I would guess that this powerplay unit was trying to set something up under the direction of the coaches. I am sure the coaches have worked on a lot of pp designed plays over the course of the year. The players have moved around to different spots on this powerplay unit throughout the season and throughout a game. I believe the players were doing what the coaches asked of them. Sometimes it is better to take a few seconds to better organize a powerplay than to rush things, turn the puck over and have to go all of the way back into your defensive zone to breakout again, move the puck through the neutral zone and set-up again in the offensive zone. This could all take 20 to 40 seconds or more. A choice between 8 to 10 seconds to set-up properly or 40 seconds or more to do it all over again most coaches would choice the former.

Just my two cents.