E.J. Smith
New member
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Nailed it Dan, right down to the part about TVR.
Nailed it Dan, right down to the part about TVR.
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UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
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Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Which begs the obvious question, bomber ... to the best of your knowledge, does UNH go up to the 18 scholarship limit? Or do they bank a few - whether "just in case" or to keep the bean-counters in Huddleston's offices happy?
Simple math: 18 scholarships divided by 25 players (14 F's/8 D's/3 G's) = 0.72 scholarship share per player
If we figure in mid-season departures like Foegele, Bourque and Kalinowski (28 players) = 0.64 SSPP
But then let's assume Regan, Cefalu, Miller and Kalinowski were walk-ons or close (24 players) = 0.75 SSPP
Now IF they're using the full 18 scholarships ...
* that feels like 12 full scholarships and 12 half-scholarships (or close)
* at only 11 full scholarships, that means the equivalent of 14 half scholarships
* reduce that to 10 full scholarships, and now you're at 16 kids averaging a half boat
* even further down to 9 free rides, then that's 18 kids averaging a .50 SSPP
* anything less than that, and you're probably not able to use up all of your money
I guess I'm assuming when you say "you'd be amazed at how few fulls there are" ... you're talking about for all 4 years, as I would think the coaches would be hesitant to reduce a scholarship share, but may want to reserve the right to increase a kid from a lower share to a higher share to (1) keep some flexibility to see how these new kids are going to perform at the D-1 level, and (2) provide an incentive for the kids to "earn" a better deal as they develop in the program. Which actually isn't a shockingly ridiculous approach, to be fair.
But at any given time in the program, one would think that most of the front-line players are on full scholarship (or very close), or else the simple math doesn't add up and/or they're just not using their full allotment.
Thoughts?
Which begs the obvious question, bomber ... to the best of your knowledge, does UNH go up to the 18 scholarship limit? Or do they bank a few - whether "just in case" or to keep the bean-counters in Huddleston's offices happy?
Simple math: 18 scholarships divided by 25 players (14 F's/8 D's/3 G's) = 0.72 scholarship share per player
If we figure in mid-season departures like Foegele, Bourque and Kalinowski (28 players) = 0.64 SSPP
But then let's assume Regan, Cefalu, Miller and Kalinowski were walk-ons or close (24 players) = 0.75 SSPP
Now IF they're using the full 18 scholarships ...
* that feels like 12 full scholarships and 12 half-scholarships (or close)
* at only 11 full scholarships, that means the equivalent of 14 half scholarships
* reduce that to 10 full scholarships, and now you're at 16 kids averaging a half boat
* even further down to 9 free rides, then that's 18 kids averaging a .50 SSPP
* anything less than that, and you're probably not able to use up all of your money
I guess I'm assuming when you say "you'd be amazed at how few fulls there are" ... you're talking about for all 4 years, as I would think the coaches would be hesitant to reduce a scholarship share, but may want to reserve the right to increase a kid from a lower share to a higher share to (1) keep some flexibility to see how these new kids are going to perform at the D-1 level, and (2) provide an incentive for the kids to "earn" a better deal as they develop in the program. Which actually isn't a shockingly ridiculous approach, to be fair.
But at any given time in the program, one would think that most of the front-line players are on full scholarship (or very close), or else the simple math doesn't add up and/or they're just not using their full allotment.
Thoughts?
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Dan, I've appreciated your posting the numbers/stats/ on Andrew. It's more than obvious he is/was a very special player there is no doubt.
In today's Foster's: http://fosters.com/article/20160309/SPORTS/160309296/SHARED/160309296 Interesting the article states he was seriously considering the 'Hawks and the Leafs...with Mike B in the house Friday night and all...
Dan, I've appreciated your posting the numbers/stats/ on Andrew. It's more than obvious he is/was a very special player there is no doubt.
In today's Foster's: http://fosters.com/article/20160309/SPORTS/160309296/SHARED/160309296 Interesting the article states he was seriously considering the 'Hawks and the Leafs...with Mike B in the house Friday night and all...
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Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Don't worry, Dan ... you two will always have your two years together in Durham, and those beautiful numbers. I'm sure quickie visits to the Carolinas or Florida
will keep the fire burning. 
Speaking of those numbers ...
Yes, actually Poturalski WAS the one who let UNH down. Taking your numbers and backing out the first half with them, that means he had a 71% drop-off in goals (17 down to 5), and contrary to your take that he "evolved" into the best playmaker on the team, his assists dropped 13% (15 down to 13) as well. Overall, his scoring went down almost 50%. Spin it however you want, but the Poturalski who played after the break bore very little resemblance to the player we saw before the break. And I haven't even breathed a word about his p!$$ poor defending and one-dimensional play (oops I guess I have now). Actually, using your metrics, it was guys like McNicholas, Eiserman, Vela and Cleland who were the only players of note to exceed or sustain first half production into the second half of the season, which runs contrary in part to your next point ...
Yes, the Maginot Line (RIP) certainly did themselves no favors this season, but I've been on that since the Fall (and sadly, on the ill-fated choice for this season's captain since about this time last year). BTW, you've overstated Correale's first half - since his season-end stats line was 16G-9A-25 pts. - and while you've chosen to cite him as a prime example of what didn't work in the second half ... I'll put it out there that he was the one guy on the top line who really played a consistent two-way game all season long, and he was arguably worn to the bone for covering up for his linemates' defensive deficiencies (and that eventually included TyK as well, sadly) all season long.
OK, there's a juicy one ... let's look at JvR's NHL career to date, shall we? Do you think he's lived up to his billing as the #2 player in his draft class, in his seven (7) year NHL career to date? The one that saw him traded by the team that drafted him after all of 2 seasons? Or the one that's had him being a negative plus/minus guy for 5 of his 6 seasons to date (including a beauty of a -33 last season)?? He's basically continued to be the one-dimensional player some of us criticized during his time at UNH well into his NHL career, and it's only been exposure to hard-***** Mike Babcock this season that's got him (narrowly) on the plus side for the second time in his career.
Now by making the reference to JvR, I'm not sure if you're implying that Poturalski is in the same class, or he's just the latest *victim* of us mean-spirited UNH fans who *gasp* actually expect players to play a well-rounded game? Give me a kid like Steve Saviano any day of the week (and twice on Sundays), who played ... you know, back when UNH actually used to win some of those big games they played?
I was pretty OK with your closing statement, counselor ... but I think the last line was a bit over the top, no?
Don't worry, Dan ... you two will always have your two years together in Durham, and those beautiful numbers. I'm sure quickie visits to the Carolinas or Florida
will keep the fire burning. Speaking of those numbers ...Yes, actually Poturalski WAS the one who let UNH down. Taking your numbers and backing out the first half with them, that means he had a 71% drop-off
in goals (17 down to 5), and contrary to your take that he "evolved" into the best playmaker on the team, his assists dropped 13% (15 down to 13) as well. Overall, his scoring went down almost 50%. Spin it however you want, but the Poturalski who played after the break bore very little resemblance to the player we saw before the break. And I haven't even breathed a word about his p!$$ poor defending and one-dimensional play (oops I guess I have now). Actually, using your metrics, it was guys like McNicholas, Eiserman, Vela and Cleland who were the only players of note to exceed or sustain first half production into the second half of the season, which runs contrary in part to your next point ...Yes, the Maginot Line (RIP) certainly did themselves no favors this season, but I've been on that since the Fall (and sadly, on the ill-fated choice for this season's captain since about this time last year). BTW, you've overstated Correale's first half - since his season-end stats line was 16G-9A-25 pts. - and while you've chosen to cite him as a prime example of what didn't work in the second half ... I'll put it out there that he was the one guy on the top line who really played a consistent two-way game all season long, and he was arguably worn to the bone for covering up for his linemates' defensive deficiencies (and that eventually included TyK as well, sadly) all season long.
OK, there's a juicy one ... let's look at JvR's NHL career to date, shall we? Do you think he's lived up to his billing as the #2 player in his draft class, in his seven (7) year NHL career to date? The one that saw him traded by the team that drafted him after all of 2 seasons? Or the one that's had him being a negative plus/minus guy for 5 of his 6 seasons to date (including a beauty of a -33 last season)?? He's basically continued to be the one-dimensional player some of us criticized during his time at UNH well into his NHL career, and it's only been exposure to hard-***** Mike Babcock this season that's got him (narrowly) on the plus side for the second time in his career.
Now by making the reference to JvR, I'm not sure if you're implying that Poturalski is in the same class, or he's just the latest *victim* of us mean-spirited UNH fans who *gasp* actually expect players to play a well-rounded game? Give me a kid like Steve Saviano any day of the week (and twice on Sundays), who played ... you know, back when UNH actually used to win some of those big games they played?
I was pretty OK with your closing statement, counselor ... but I think the last line was a bit over the top, no?
Don't worry, Dan ... you two will always have your two years together in Durham, and those beautiful numbers. I'm sure quickie visits to the Carolinas or Florida
Yes, actually Poturalski WAS the one who let UNH down. Taking your numbers and backing out the first half with them, that means he had a 71% drop-off
Yes, the Maginot Line (RIP) certainly did themselves no favors this season, but I've been on that since the Fall (and sadly, on the ill-fated choice for this season's captain since about this time last year). BTW, you've overstated Correale's first half - since his season-end stats line was 16G-9A-25 pts. - and while you've chosen to cite him as a prime example of what didn't work in the second half ... I'll put it out there that he was the one guy on the top line who really played a consistent two-way game all season long, and he was arguably worn to the bone for covering up for his linemates' defensive deficiencies (and that eventually included TyK as well, sadly) all season long.
OK, there's a juicy one ... let's look at JvR's NHL career to date, shall we? Do you think he's lived up to his billing as the #2 player in his draft class, in his seven (7) year NHL career to date? The one that saw him traded by the team that drafted him after all of 2 seasons? Or the one that's had him being a negative plus/minus guy for 5 of his 6 seasons to date (including a beauty of a -33 last season)?? He's basically continued to be the one-dimensional player some of us criticized during his time at UNH well into his NHL career, and it's only been exposure to hard-***** Mike Babcock this season that's got him (narrowly) on the plus side for the second time in his career.
Now by making the reference to JvR, I'm not sure if you're implying that Poturalski is in the same class, or he's just the latest *victim* of us mean-spirited UNH fans who *gasp* actually expect players to play a well-rounded game? Give me a kid like Steve Saviano any day of the week (and twice on Sundays), who played ... you know, back when UNH actually used to win some of those big games they played?
I was pretty OK with your closing statement, counselor ... but I think the last line was a bit over the top, no?
I dunno, Chuck, you make some good points, but all of these NHL scouts must have noticed somethin' that you did not?
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
So, Chuck, before we continue this debate can you clear up a few things for me...??
1. You put ZERO credence in a 'painful injury' slowing down Poturalski in the second half despite two trusted sources claiming this fact? Simply because he's going to play a few more games?
2. You don't believe that opposing teams in any way game planned specifically to slow down Poturalski and Kelleher after their torrid start?
3. Despite continued references to the Maginot line, you don't believe that a lack of secondary scoring in the second half drew more defensive attention to Poturalski?
4. You don't believe that a second line of Vela, Eiserman, McNicholas (despite the second half numbers the latter two put up in limited minutes and the former put up with your Maginot mainstays) could have provided more depth and opened things up a bit for Poturalski and Kelleher?
5. You are not impressed at all by Poturalski's involvement in an NCAA best 46% of his team's goals scored, a percentage he maintained consistently all year long?
6. You believe that if he was any good at all he would have willed himself through double teams and injury to finish 34-30--64, while figuring in 63% of second half goals?
7. You do not think that a more difficult second half schedule should have effected his numbers in anyway?
8. You do not believe that linemates (Correale) and the talent or lack there of on a roster contribute to an individuals production?
9. You believe that Correale's 13 goal first half and 3 goal second half is a result of Poturalski checking out?
10. You believe that a -4 on a team that finished -19 is the critical liability?
11. You see ZERO leadership in playing through and injury during the stretch run?
12. you would prefer Steve Saviano (0.84 PPG / Average of +9 per season at UNH) to a JVR ( 1.1 PPG / Average of +14 per season at UNH). So before we even take into account what JVR would have done as a junior and a senior - you are admitting that its not about actual production but about the gritty appearance to Saviano's game?
13. You prefer grittiness and hustle over skill and results - are you Dick Umile?
Just admit, that you're a UNH fan first and foremost and it ****es you off when guys leave early. That's ok.
So, Chuck, before we continue this debate can you clear up a few things for me...??
1. You put ZERO credence in a 'painful injury' slowing down Poturalski in the second half despite two trusted sources claiming this fact? Simply because he's going to play a few more games?
2. You don't believe that opposing teams in any way game planned specifically to slow down Poturalski and Kelleher after their torrid start?
3. Despite continued references to the Maginot line, you don't believe that a lack of secondary scoring in the second half drew more defensive attention to Poturalski?
4. You don't believe that a second line of Vela, Eiserman, McNicholas (despite the second half numbers the latter two put up in limited minutes and the former put up with your Maginot mainstays) could have provided more depth and opened things up a bit for Poturalski and Kelleher?
5. You are not impressed at all by Poturalski's involvement in an NCAA best 46% of his team's goals scored, a percentage he maintained consistently all year long?
6. You believe that if he was any good at all he would have willed himself through double teams and injury to finish 34-30--64, while figuring in 63% of second half goals?
7. You do not think that a more difficult second half schedule should have effected his numbers in anyway?
8. You do not believe that linemates (Correale) and the talent or lack there of on a roster contribute to an individuals production?
9. You believe that Correale's 13 goal first half and 3 goal second half is a result of Poturalski checking out?
10. You believe that a -4 on a team that finished -19 is the critical liability?
11. You see ZERO leadership in playing through and injury during the stretch run?
12. you would prefer Steve Saviano (0.84 PPG / Average of +9 per season at UNH) to a JVR ( 1.1 PPG / Average of +14 per season at UNH). So before we even take into account what JVR would have done as a junior and a senior - you are admitting that its not about actual production but about the gritty appearance to Saviano's game?
13. You prefer grittiness and hustle over skill and results - are you Dick Umile?
Just admit, that you're a UNH fan first and foremost and it ****es you off when guys leave early. That's ok.
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Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
For the last several weeks, Poturalski had a lower body injury which could only heal with rest, which was not an option. The injury diminished his speed, power skating (i.e., skating with one or more opponents trying to muscle him off the puck or out of position) and leverage in battles along the boards. The few people who knew about the nature of the injury could see how it was effecting his play but he was determined to play through it.
For the last several weeks, Poturalski had a lower body injury which could only heal with rest, which was not an option. The injury diminished his speed, power skating (i.e., skating with one or more opponents trying to muscle him off the puck or out of position) and leverage in battles along the boards. The few people who knew about the nature of the injury could see how it was effecting his play but he was determined to play through it.
I knew it!!! Chuck IS Dick Umile!!
Maybe?! You have never seen the two of them at the same time in the same place, have you?
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Thanks for boiling it down to smaller points. We'll keep more folks from nodding off this way ...
Sorry, Dan, but your attack on Saviano has earned you a major AND a game misconduct in my book. I mean ... if we're not measuring by "results" meaning wins, then what exactly do these games after the MBPBEGAM round really mean? Lots of fans of other programs all seem to think they're kind of a big deal. Someone had better cancel the rest of the (real) postseason, and just give the Hobey to your guy. I'll let you break it to the BC crowd that "trophy season" has officially come to a close. I'm sure they'll appreciate the heads up.
Thanks for boiling it down to smaller points. We'll keep more folks from nodding off this way ...
So, Chuck, before we continue this debate can you clear up a few things for me...??
1. You put ZERO credence in a 'painful injury' slowing down Poturalski in the second half despite two trusted sources claiming this fact? Simply because he's going to play a few more games? Whole second half? No. Recent weeks? Yes.
2. You don't believe that opposing teams in any way game planned specifically to slow down Poturalski and Kelleher after their torrid start? I'm sure they did. The really good players overcome that. You could argue they also padded their stats early against what we all agreed was the powder puff segment of the schedule.
3. Despite continued references to the Maginot line, you don't believe that a lack of secondary scoring in the second half drew more defensive attention to Poturalski? The Maginot Line was an issue from Day One. Coach's fault for being too stubborn too long.
4. You don't believe that a second line of Vela, Eiserman, McNicholas (despite the second half numbers the latter two put up in limited minutes and the former put up with your Maginot mainstays) could have provided more depth and opened things up a bit for Poturalski and Kelleher? I thought some of them did step up - not huge, but improved. Again, coaching issue, see above.
5. You are not impressed at all by Poturalski's involvement in an NCAA best 46% of his team's goals scored, a percentage he maintained consistently all year long? Clearly not as much as you were. By product of poor secondary scoring, don't you think?
6. You believe that if he was any good at all he would have willed himself through double teams and injury to finish 34-30--64, while figuring in 63% of second half goals? Never said he wasn't "any good at all". Just not Hobey level in 2016, that's all.
7. You do not think that a more difficult second half schedule should have effected his numbers in anyway? Not a 50% reduction.
8. You do not believe that linemates (Correale) and the talent or lack there of on a roster contribute to an individuals production? You've avoided my question here. With Correale having to pick up the defensive slack, what did you expect?
9. You believe that Correale's 13 goal first half and 3 goal second half is a result of Poturalski checking out? In part - see above.
10. You believe that a -4 on a team that finished -19 is the critical liability? It sure as heck isn't Hobey worthy IMO.
11. You see ZERO leadership in playing through and injury during the stretch run? Let's just say I was disappointed with his effort at several key junctures - including perhaps THE key moment of the series.
12. you would prefer Steve Saviano (0.84 PPG / Average of +9 per season at UNH) to a JVR ( 1.1 PPG / Average of +14 per season at UNH). So before we even take into account what JVR would have done as a junior and a senior - you are admitting that its not about actual production but about the gritty appearance to Saviano's game? Saviano was a top line center who produced AND checked the other team's best centers. Amazing, eh? Oh, and his teams won the only two HE Tourney trophies in the program's history, and made two FF runs. So if you're asking me who was the better D-1 player, yeah ... I'd take Saviano. Talented and played tough. A winner. Something this program has way too often lacked over the last decade since he left.
13. You prefer grittiness and hustle over skill and results - are you Dick Umile? What "results" did JvR or Poturalski ever achieve in their short UNH careers? Did I miss another HE Tourney title? Did we finally land the elusive D-1 title when I was away?
Just admit, that you're a UNH fan first and foremost and it ****es you off when guys leave early. That's ok. Yes I amHappy now?
Sorry, Dan, but your attack on Saviano has earned you a major AND a game misconduct in my book. I mean ... if we're not measuring by "results" meaning wins, then what exactly do these games after the MBPBEGAM round really mean? Lots of fans of other programs all seem to think they're kind of a big deal. Someone had better cancel the rest of the (real) postseason, and just give the Hobey to your guy. I'll let you break it to the BC crowd that "trophy season" has officially come to a close. I'm sure they'll appreciate the heads up.
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Haha, nice attempt to re-frame the argument. I sure hope Darren Haydar, Colin Hemingway, Sean Collins, Lanny Gare, Josh Prudden, Jim Abbott, Garrett Stafford, Preston Callandar, Nathan Martz, Justin Aikins, Michael Ayers, Kevin Truelson, Tyson Teplitsky and Brian Yandle, ect., remember to send cards to Saviano every March to thank HIM for winning them a pair of HE Championships. I'll be sure to thank the heavens every day that JVR and Andrew Poturalski weren't on those teams to ruin them and cost UNH the titles. Just a slight difference between the supporting casts of Saviano and Poturalski don't you think...
You're the stubborn and aging scout from Moneyball - a simple check of the numbers shows that JVR was the better player, including GF/GA contribution, than Saviano (who was great). Eyes would tell the same story - just not yours I guess. JVR didn't have to worry about hustling to defend opponents every shift, because he'd normally just pick up the puck and keep it in the offensive end (and he did it without his legs moving 100 MPH - that jerk). But you see the hustle and assume that means superior two way play. Does Saviano have a hot girlfriend too? That means confidence right, scout!? I think you ignore statistics and evidence not because you don't see the value, but because it often doesn't line up with the reality you want to see.
Did you know that Saviano, who scored 27 goals his senior year (the only year he played a JVR/Pots type role), scored just ONE goal in the last month of that season? As a result, UNH finished 3-4-1 down the stretch - should he shoulder all the blame? Was his head already in the ECHL? No, I bet you would have blamed Sean Collins - **** skill guys...
Injuries happen and hinder, overall team talent matters (I know you saw Watcher's post about Douris/Richmond - I guess Richmond just wasn't very good and mailed it in as a SR? Though I guess Douris wasn't very good either - did you see the records on those teams!) and stats and actual evidence can have meaning - no matter how loudly you try to shout them down.
I wouldn't have been so hard on Correale if I realized he only picked up nine assists this year because he was so focused on his defense. I guess he missed all those chances (and there were a lot) Poturalski and Kelleher laid on his stick in the second half because his mind was back in his own end? Give me a break...
If Poturalski would have stayed four years, he would have approached 200 career points - just like those other defensive slackers Cox, Krog & Haydar. But, they won, so maybe they were actually defensive wizards and fooled us all. Or MAYBE they played on good teams?!!
Sorry, Dan, but your attack on Saviano has earned you a major AND a game misconduct in my book. I mean ... if we're not measuring by "results" meaning wins, then what exactly do these games after the MBPBEGAM round really mean? Lots of fans of other programs all seem to think they're kind of a big deal. Someone had better cancel the rest of the (real) postseason, and just give the Hobey to your guy. I'll let you break it to the BC crowd that "trophy season" has officially come to a close. I'm sure they'll appreciate the heads up.
Haha, nice attempt to re-frame the argument. I sure hope Darren Haydar, Colin Hemingway, Sean Collins, Lanny Gare, Josh Prudden, Jim Abbott, Garrett Stafford, Preston Callandar, Nathan Martz, Justin Aikins, Michael Ayers, Kevin Truelson, Tyson Teplitsky and Brian Yandle, ect., remember to send cards to Saviano every March to thank HIM for winning them a pair of HE Championships. I'll be sure to thank the heavens every day that JVR and Andrew Poturalski weren't on those teams to ruin them and cost UNH the titles. Just a slight difference between the supporting casts of Saviano and Poturalski don't you think...
You're the stubborn and aging scout from Moneyball - a simple check of the numbers shows that JVR was the better player, including GF/GA contribution, than Saviano (who was great). Eyes would tell the same story - just not yours I guess. JVR didn't have to worry about hustling to defend opponents every shift, because he'd normally just pick up the puck and keep it in the offensive end (and he did it without his legs moving 100 MPH - that jerk). But you see the hustle and assume that means superior two way play. Does Saviano have a hot girlfriend too? That means confidence right, scout!? I think you ignore statistics and evidence not because you don't see the value, but because it often doesn't line up with the reality you want to see.
Did you know that Saviano, who scored 27 goals his senior year (the only year he played a JVR/Pots type role), scored just ONE goal in the last month of that season? As a result, UNH finished 3-4-1 down the stretch - should he shoulder all the blame? Was his head already in the ECHL? No, I bet you would have blamed Sean Collins - **** skill guys...
Injuries happen and hinder, overall team talent matters (I know you saw Watcher's post about Douris/Richmond - I guess Richmond just wasn't very good and mailed it in as a SR? Though I guess Douris wasn't very good either - did you see the records on those teams!) and stats and actual evidence can have meaning - no matter how loudly you try to shout them down.
I wouldn't have been so hard on Correale if I realized he only picked up nine assists this year because he was so focused on his defense. I guess he missed all those chances (and there were a lot) Poturalski and Kelleher laid on his stick in the second half because his mind was back in his own end? Give me a break...
If Poturalski would have stayed four years, he would have approached 200 career points - just like those other defensive slackers Cox, Krog & Haydar. But, they won, so maybe they were actually defensive wizards and fooled us all. Or MAYBE they played on good teams?!!
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e.cat
Seasoned Veteran
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Not only does Chuck suffer from ODD he also suffers from MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder)! No disrespect to others who suffer with these challenging afflictions.
BTW I remember his favorite player Saviano's first goal. He skated into the slot area uncontested, pulled the trigger and fanned on the shot. Of course the goalie was disoriented on the knuckleball dribbler and the puck snuck under his pads for the goal. The skill that it took for Saviano to pull that off is nothing short of amazing. Saviano was a put the shot on net (ironically not Chuck's favorite strategy!) and good things will happen type of player for the most part. Don't get me wrong I liked Saviano but obviously playing on a line with Collins made him and others better players.
Carry on!
I knew it!!! Chuck IS Dick Umile!!
Not only does Chuck suffer from ODD he also suffers from MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder)! No disrespect to others who suffer with these challenging afflictions.
BTW I remember his favorite player Saviano's first goal. He skated into the slot area uncontested, pulled the trigger and fanned on the shot. Of course the goalie was disoriented on the knuckleball dribbler and the puck snuck under his pads for the goal. The skill that it took for Saviano to pull that off is nothing short of amazing. Saviano was a put the shot on net (ironically not Chuck's favorite strategy!) and good things will happen type of player for the most part. Don't get me wrong I liked Saviano but obviously playing on a line with Collins made him and others better players.
Carry on!
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
During JvR 's time in Durham, while I appreciated him very much I was in the "boy, if he only tried a little harder instead of gliding effortlessly around the ice" camp. You know, like Jack Eichel whose line/teammates and D-men at BU were... Wonder what Danny O'Regan's and Pots' #s would be if they swapped teams this year?
My thought exactly as I read your first paragraph, Billy.
During JvR 's time in Durham, while I appreciated him very much I was in the "boy, if he only tried a little harder instead of gliding effortlessly around the ice" camp. You know, like Jack Eichel whose line/teammates and D-men at BU were... Wonder what Danny O'Regan's and Pots' #s would be if they swapped teams this year?
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
The comments minimizing and disparaging the abilities of Steve Saviano are making me physically ill.
Go look up the video of the 2002 HE Finals against UMaine, and come beg my forgiveness afterwards.
Dan - with all due respect, I think you are a little too attached to your stats.
You seem to think offensive skills and defensive commitment/discipline are mutually exclusive, and give the JvR's and Poturalski's of the world a pass, while deriding those who disagree with you as "old school". Let me trot out a few names you might recognize, in support of the concept that yeah, you can be skilled AND actually *gasp* be a strong defender as well ...
* Jonathan Toews (3 Stanley Cups, 1 Selke Trophy & counting)
* Pavel Datsyuk (2 Stanley Cups, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
* Patrice Bergeron (1 Stanley Cup, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
In fact, in the last 10 years the Selke has been awarded, the two least skilled players who have won it were (1) Ryan Kesler, an above-average skills guy who has played with strong teams in Vancouver, which (perhaps not coincidentally) fell away from the top of the NHL when he was traded to Anaheim ... and of course the Ducks have slipped past the Canucks near the top of the West; and (2) two-time winner Rod Brind'Amour (sp?) who was a 1,000 point scorer over his career, and led Carolina - yes, Carolina - to a Stanley Cup. Which means only Kesler out of the last 10 winners of the Selke hasn't won a Cup. And NONE of these guys can be classified a Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau or Kris Draper "happy to be contributing to a dynasty" type. All 5 of those players wear a "C" or an "A" on their jersey.
Going back a little further into the mists of ancient history, I also bring you:
* Sergei Fedorov (3 Stanley Cups and 2 Selkes)
* Steve Yzerman (3 Stanley Cups and 1 Selke)
Fedorov was one of the most dynamic offensively skilled players of his generation, but when the Wings were down a defenseman more than a few times in his career in Motown, Scotty Bowman would play Fedorov on defense. And not just for a stray shift or two - entire games, sometimes for weeks, and one year for almost half a season. Because Bowman - you know, the greatest coach in NHL history, nine (9) Stanley Cups as a coach, five (5) more as an executive - said he was also one of the most defensively gifted players he'd ever coached. And Bowman coached Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Nick Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Jacques Lemaire and Bob Gainey, to name just a few.
Yzerman was a 700 goal guy over his career, and would be better remembered if he hadn't played in the shadow of guys like Gretzky and Lemieux. He had a (well-deserved) reputation as a one-dimensional player for the first half of his career, when some talent stacked DRW teams fell short consistently at the last hurdles (sound familiar, UNH bretheren?) ... but then Bowman arrives, scares the bejeezus out of Stevie Y by threatening to trade him to his hometown of Ottawa for Alexei Yashin, and presto bingo, Yzerman discovers and then excels at becoming the well-rounded player that led the DRW dynasty quietly from the front, and captained his country's team to big trophies and gold medals on the world stage.
Heck - even a guy like Alex Ovechkin is finally getting plaudits for becoming a more complete player under Barry Trotz, and with that, his team actually looks like a legitimate threat to win the Cup. No kidding.
So I guess you can be a top-end skill guy AND work hard at the other end of your game too.
You can hug your stats 'til the cows come home, I think I'll stick with guys like Bowman, thanks.
The comments minimizing and disparaging the abilities of Steve Saviano are making me physically ill.
Go look up the video of the 2002 HE Finals against UMaine, and come beg my forgiveness afterwards.
Dan - with all due respect, I think you are a little too attached to your stats.
You seem to think offensive skills and defensive commitment/discipline are mutually exclusive, and give the JvR's and Poturalski's of the world a pass, while deriding those who disagree with you as "old school". Let me trot out a few names you might recognize, in support of the concept that yeah, you can be skilled AND actually *gasp* be a strong defender as well ...
* Jonathan Toews (3 Stanley Cups, 1 Selke Trophy & counting)
* Pavel Datsyuk (2 Stanley Cups, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
* Patrice Bergeron (1 Stanley Cup, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
In fact, in the last 10 years the Selke has been awarded, the two least skilled players who have won it were (1) Ryan Kesler, an above-average skills guy who has played with strong teams in Vancouver, which (perhaps not coincidentally) fell away from the top of the NHL when he was traded to Anaheim ... and of course the Ducks have slipped past the Canucks near the top of the West; and (2) two-time winner Rod Brind'Amour (sp?) who was a 1,000 point scorer over his career, and led Carolina - yes, Carolina - to a Stanley Cup. Which means only Kesler out of the last 10 winners of the Selke hasn't won a Cup. And NONE of these guys can be classified a Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau or Kris Draper "happy to be contributing to a dynasty" type. All 5 of those players wear a "C" or an "A" on their jersey.
Going back a little further into the mists of ancient history, I also bring you:
* Sergei Fedorov (3 Stanley Cups and 2 Selkes)
* Steve Yzerman (3 Stanley Cups and 1 Selke)
Fedorov was one of the most dynamic offensively skilled players of his generation, but when the Wings were down a defenseman more than a few times in his career in Motown, Scotty Bowman would play Fedorov on defense. And not just for a stray shift or two - entire games, sometimes for weeks, and one year for almost half a season. Because Bowman - you know, the greatest coach in NHL history, nine (9) Stanley Cups as a coach, five (5) more as an executive - said he was also one of the most defensively gifted players he'd ever coached. And Bowman coached Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Nick Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Jacques Lemaire and Bob Gainey, to name just a few.
Yzerman was a 700 goal guy over his career, and would be better remembered if he hadn't played in the shadow of guys like Gretzky and Lemieux. He had a (well-deserved) reputation as a one-dimensional player for the first half of his career, when some talent stacked DRW teams fell short consistently at the last hurdles (sound familiar, UNH bretheren?) ... but then Bowman arrives, scares the bejeezus out of Stevie Y by threatening to trade him to his hometown of Ottawa for Alexei Yashin, and presto bingo, Yzerman discovers and then excels at becoming the well-rounded player that led the DRW dynasty quietly from the front, and captained his country's team to big trophies and gold medals on the world stage.
Heck - even a guy like Alex Ovechkin is finally getting plaudits for becoming a more complete player under Barry Trotz, and with that, his team actually looks like a legitimate threat to win the Cup. No kidding.
So I guess you can be a top-end skill guy AND work hard at the other end of your game too.
You can hug your stats 'til the cows come home, I think I'll stick with guys like Bowman, thanks.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Glad you said that, and not me. Did make me though.
Glad you said that, and not me. Did make me
though.Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Wow, Toews, Datsyuk Bergeron, Federov, Eiserman (oh wait, Yzerman)? Somehow I missed these guys when they passed through UNH? And, how did a Boston Bruin slip in there? Anyway, I think that both you and Dan are too focused on stats, and that comes from someone who likes to look up stats. All that I know is what I see on the ice, and JvR and Poturalski have been the most fun for me watch skate for UNH during the post-FF days, from skating with fluid strides, to carrying, passing, and shooting the puck, regardless of line mates, blue liners, goalies, etc. No other UNH forwards come close for me. There were many games that I saw this season where the UNH D-men just let Pots skate the puck out of their zone, as he was much better at that than any of the blue liners. I am not alone, as when I sat next to the other team's fans at all four away games that I attended this season, they all agreed that Poturalski was the best player on the ice. Apparently NHL scouts felt the same. Good luck to him in his next career moves, and I agree that he can still improve many aspects of his play, as any 22-year old can do. But, I do not think that was going to happen at UNH, for a variety of reasons, as sorry as I am to see him leave. There will be a lot less reason for me to attend UNH games next season without him on the ice, that is for sure.
The comments minimizing and disparaging the abilities of Steve Saviano are making me physically ill.
Go look up the video of the 2002 HE Finals against UMaine, and come beg my forgiveness afterwards.
Dan - with all due respect, I think you are a little too attached to your stats.
You seem to think offensive skills and defensive commitment/discipline are mutually exclusive, and give the JvR's and Poturalski's of the world a pass, while deriding those who disagree with you as "old school". Let me trot out a few names you might recognize, in support of the concept that yeah, you can be skilled AND actually *gasp* be a strong defender as well ...
* Jonathan Toews (3 Stanley Cups, 1 Selke Trophy & counting)
* Pavel Datsyuk (2 Stanley Cups, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
* Patrice Bergeron (1 Stanley Cup, 3 Selke's & still going strong)
In fact, in the last 10 years the Selke has been awarded, the two least skilled players who have won it were (1) Ryan Kesler, an above-average skills guy who has played with strong teams in Vancouver, which (perhaps not coincidentally) fell away from the top of the NHL when he was traded to Anaheim ... and of course the Ducks have slipped past the Canucks near the top of the West; and (2) two-time winner Rod Brind'Amour (sp?) who was a 1,000 point scorer over his career, and led Carolina - yes, Carolina - to a Stanley Cup. Which means only Kesler out of the last 10 winners of the Selke hasn't won a Cup. And NONE of these guys can be classified a Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau or Kris Draper "happy to be contributing to a dynasty" type. All 5 of those players wear a "C" or an "A" on their jersey.
Going back a little further into the mists of ancient history, I also bring you:
* Sergei Fedorov (3 Stanley Cups and 2 Selkes)
* Steve Yzerman (3 Stanley Cups and 1 Selke)
Fedorov was one of the most dynamic offensively skilled players of his generation, but when the Wings were down a defenseman more than a few times in his career in Motown, Scotty Bowman would play Fedorov on defense. And not just for a stray shift or two - entire games, sometimes for weeks, and one year for almost half a season. Because Bowman - you know, the greatest coach in NHL history, nine (9) Stanley Cups as a coach, five (5) more as an executive - said he was also one of the most defensively gifted players he'd ever coached. And Bowman coached Larry Robinson, Serge Savard, Nick Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Jacques Lemaire and Bob Gainey, to name just a few.
Yzerman was a 700 goal guy over his career, and would be better remembered if he hadn't played in the shadow of guys like Gretzky and Lemieux. He had a (well-deserved) reputation as a one-dimensional player for the first half of his career, when some talent stacked DRW teams fell short consistently at the last hurdles (sound familiar, UNH bretheren?) ... but then Bowman arrives, scares the bejeezus out of Stevie Y by threatening to trade him to his hometown of Ottawa for Alexei Yashin, and presto bingo, Yzerman discovers and then excels at becoming the well-rounded player that led the DRW dynasty quietly from the front, and captained his country's team to big trophies and gold medals on the world stage.
Heck - even a guy like Alex Ovechkin is finally getting plaudits for becoming a more complete player under Barry Trotz, and with that, his team actually looks like a legitimate threat to win the Cup. No kidding.
So I guess you can be a top-end skill guy AND work hard at the other end of your game too.
You can hug your stats 'til the cows come home, I think I'll stick with guys like Bowman, thanks.
Wow, Toews, Datsyuk Bergeron, Federov, Eiserman (oh wait, Yzerman)? Somehow I missed these guys when they passed through UNH? And, how did a Boston Bruin slip in there? Anyway, I think that both you and Dan are too focused on stats, and that comes from someone who likes to look up stats. All that I know is what I see on the ice, and JvR and Poturalski have been the most fun for me watch skate for UNH during the post-FF days, from skating with fluid strides, to carrying, passing, and shooting the puck, regardless of line mates, blue liners, goalies, etc. No other UNH forwards come close for me. There were many games that I saw this season where the UNH D-men just let Pots skate the puck out of their zone, as he was much better at that than any of the blue liners. I am not alone, as when I sat next to the other team's fans at all four away games that I attended this season, they all agreed that Poturalski was the best player on the ice. Apparently NHL scouts felt the same. Good luck to him in his next career moves, and I agree that he can still improve many aspects of his play, as any 22-year old can do. But, I do not think that was going to happen at UNH, for a variety of reasons, as sorry as I am to see him leave. There will be a lot less reason for me to attend UNH games next season without him on the ice, that is for sure.
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Ok Chuck - so now the argument is whether or not you can be offensively gifted AND defensively responsible? Of course you can. I'm not citing complicated stats, Chuck. Points, points per game and plus-minus. I'd explain to you how scoring more goals than you give up (no matter how) is critical to your favorite stat - wins - but I think you already know that. That's why you continue to change the frame of discussion. If your argument is that Poturalski is not better - or ever will be - than a bunch of NHL Hall of Famers (who played on loaded rosters) than congratulations - you got me! Still, I hate to break it to you but no GM (not even STAN Bowman) is going to consider trading Patrick Kane for Bergeron, Kesler or Draper...
BTW, the only fair UNH comparison for the three players in question is FR/SO years only. It illustrates my point even more - but you're also fortunate that's the comparison. If JVR and Poturalski played four year's at UNH and became the 4th and 5th players in school history to crack 200 points (let alone that all aspects of their game would improve), you'd obviously have no argument at all...
Poturalski - 36-45--81, -4 (on teams that combined for a -116)
JVR - 28-46--74, +28 (on teams that combined for a +270)
Saviano - 14-15--29, +16 (on teams that combined for a +470)
How about the two years directly after UNH? Saviano tore up your favorite beer league to the tune of 39-83--122 and managed just 31 AHL games. Meanwhile, JVR scored 36-39--75 in the NHL and hasn't played a game in any other league since. I'm certain we can revisit this conversation in 2018 and Poturalski being relegated to 100 ECHL games won't be part of the debate. Sorry about your nauseousness Chuck, but Saviano's career is only being evaluated honestly because you brought him up as a way to disparage the other two...
Darius - I can't tell if you're being serious, half serious or just saw an opportunity to be funny and sarcastic. Do you agree with Chuck that Poturalski was a disappointment and that injury and lack of a supporting cast are irrelevant to the discussion? Do you agree that Saviano was a better player - and a more significant contributor - than both JVR and Poturalski? Do you disagree that the roster Saviano played with had any effect on his numbers or his two HE championships? Do you honestly think that trading O'Regan for Poturalski makes UNH better and BU worse? O'Regan plays with 9 NHL draft picks, which doesn't include Ohksanen, Lane, McAvoy or Fortunato. Do you disagree that their is a significant difference in supporting casts? Also, O'Regan is only a +4 on a team that is a combined +169 - not a great fit for CHUCK Bowman. JVR isn't Jack Eichel, but that certainly wasn't the discussion...
Snively - Sure, I can overdo stats at times, but this is also why they're important. There are times when you clearly can't always trust what you think you see - not if you want to truly understand what's going on and be the best coach you can be. I'm sure even SCOTTY Bowman would agree with that...
Ok Chuck - so now the argument is whether or not you can be offensively gifted AND defensively responsible? Of course you can. I'm not citing complicated stats, Chuck. Points, points per game and plus-minus. I'd explain to you how scoring more goals than you give up (no matter how) is critical to your favorite stat - wins - but I think you already know that. That's why you continue to change the frame of discussion. If your argument is that Poturalski is not better - or ever will be - than a bunch of NHL Hall of Famers (who played on loaded rosters) than congratulations - you got me! Still, I hate to break it to you but no GM (not even STAN Bowman) is going to consider trading Patrick Kane for Bergeron, Kesler or Draper...
BTW, the only fair UNH comparison for the three players in question is FR/SO years only. It illustrates my point even more - but you're also fortunate that's the comparison. If JVR and Poturalski played four year's at UNH and became the 4th and 5th players in school history to crack 200 points (let alone that all aspects of their game would improve), you'd obviously have no argument at all...
Poturalski - 36-45--81, -4 (on teams that combined for a -116)
JVR - 28-46--74, +28 (on teams that combined for a +270)
Saviano - 14-15--29, +16 (on teams that combined for a +470)
How about the two years directly after UNH? Saviano tore up your favorite beer league to the tune of 39-83--122 and managed just 31 AHL games. Meanwhile, JVR scored 36-39--75 in the NHL and hasn't played a game in any other league since. I'm certain we can revisit this conversation in 2018 and Poturalski being relegated to 100 ECHL games won't be part of the debate. Sorry about your nauseousness Chuck, but Saviano's career is only being evaluated honestly because you brought him up as a way to disparage the other two...
Darius - I can't tell if you're being serious, half serious or just saw an opportunity to be funny and sarcastic. Do you agree with Chuck that Poturalski was a disappointment and that injury and lack of a supporting cast are irrelevant to the discussion? Do you agree that Saviano was a better player - and a more significant contributor - than both JVR and Poturalski? Do you disagree that the roster Saviano played with had any effect on his numbers or his two HE championships? Do you honestly think that trading O'Regan for Poturalski makes UNH better and BU worse? O'Regan plays with 9 NHL draft picks, which doesn't include Ohksanen, Lane, McAvoy or Fortunato. Do you disagree that their is a significant difference in supporting casts? Also, O'Regan is only a +4 on a team that is a combined +169 - not a great fit for CHUCK Bowman. JVR isn't Jack Eichel, but that certainly wasn't the discussion...
Snively - Sure, I can overdo stats at times, but this is also why they're important. There are times when you clearly can't always trust what you think you see - not if you want to truly understand what's going on and be the best coach you can be. I'm sure even SCOTTY Bowman would agree with that...
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NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
As I've oft noted, Poturalski was UNH's only top 40 scorer in the USHL the past 8 years. While stats may be blurry indicators of talent, they are the most reliable so far. UNH's "success" in recruiting USHL players translates pretty solidly to the players' success in the USHL, measured by points. It was no surprise that Poturalski was UNH's leading rookie scorer, and its leading scorer as a sophomore.
Let's not turn on ourselves about shortcomings, real or imagined, in the play of one of UNH's successful recruits.
BTW, UNH's top USHL scorer this year is Grasso (48th). MacAdams (14 points), Cippolone (9 points) and Esposito (7 points) are not well-positioned to change that next year in the 9th year.
To summarize. UNH will have had 1 top 40 USHL scorer in nearly a decade. Let's leave him alone.
As I've oft noted, Poturalski was UNH's only top 40 scorer in the USHL the past 8 years. While stats may be blurry indicators of talent, they are the most reliable so far. UNH's "success" in recruiting USHL players translates pretty solidly to the players' success in the USHL, measured by points. It was no surprise that Poturalski was UNH's leading rookie scorer, and its leading scorer as a sophomore.
Let's not turn on ourselves about shortcomings, real or imagined, in the play of one of UNH's successful recruits.
BTW, UNH's top USHL scorer this year is Grasso (48th). MacAdams (14 points), Cippolone (9 points) and Esposito (7 points) are not well-positioned to change that next year in the 9th year.
To summarize. UNH will have had 1 top 40 USHL scorer in nearly a decade. Let's leave him alone.
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Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond
Chuck, I'm amazed that you seem to be hanging UNH's second half failures on Poturalski. His production dropped off, but there are a couple of reasons for this. First, he and Kelleher were marked men. Once other teams figured out that the rest of the roster flat out stunk, they focused all their attention on the first line. Less room to maneuver, more hitting and, yes, more cheap shots. Those things slow you down. Second, the second half schedule was a heck of lot harder than the first half. The only team we played in the first half that was is in the top half of HE was BC (one game). After the first of the year UNH had Lowell, Northeastern, BU, Notre Dame, and Providence all twice and BC once. I didn't bother to add up the cumulative won/loss/tie record but, clearly, the quality of the opposition improved while the quality of our play out side the first line did not. As for Saviano, I liked him as well, he was a clutch guy in the 2002 HE final and the 2003 NCAA semis. And, he should have played freshman year ahead of Foley! But he's not JVR and, I would dare say, he's not Poturalski either. Saviano never got above the ECHL in North America so wisely moved his talents to Europe where, I believe, he is still playing. I would never denigrate the guy, ever, but he played with an awful lot of talent in his time at UNH, something Poturalski did not have the advantage of.
Chuck, I'm amazed that you seem to be hanging UNH's second half failures on Poturalski. His production dropped off, but there are a couple of reasons for this. First, he and Kelleher were marked men. Once other teams figured out that the rest of the roster flat out stunk, they focused all their attention on the first line. Less room to maneuver, more hitting and, yes, more cheap shots. Those things slow you down. Second, the second half schedule was a heck of lot harder than the first half. The only team we played in the first half that was is in the top half of HE was BC (one game). After the first of the year UNH had Lowell, Northeastern, BU, Notre Dame, and Providence all twice and BC once. I didn't bother to add up the cumulative won/loss/tie record but, clearly, the quality of the opposition improved while the quality of our play out side the first line did not. As for Saviano, I liked him as well, he was a clutch guy in the 2002 HE final and the 2003 NCAA semis. And, he should have played freshman year ahead of Foley! But he's not JVR and, I would dare say, he's not Poturalski either. Saviano never got above the ECHL in North America so wisely moved his talents to Europe where, I believe, he is still playing. I would never denigrate the guy, ever, but he played with an awful lot of talent in his time at UNH, something Poturalski did not have the advantage of.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
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