UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I was gonna substitute the word "groping" for "searching", but thought that might be a tiny step over the line.

 

[Dan]

Thanks Bob, I saw that as well. Crotty turns 17 next week and he's listed at 6'1", 171 lbs...

Crotty is very often listed at just 5-10, not that it matters at all - he is a player UNH should be all over. The defining characteristic with the D group you mention was skill. None of those guys were very physical, they had good feet, good sticks and made good passes. To me that group reinforces Watchers "if you have the skill you don't need to defend as often" argument. They need guys like Crotty at 5-10 or 6-1....

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

UNH under Souza - to date - is either admitting defeat and chasing second rate kids, unable to properly evaluate properly or proving its inability to be competitive for top kids and settling for second rate kids. One scenario may make some feel better but they're all garbage in reality...

In light of what several scouts have said about Corson Green (see http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2016/04/meet-corson-green-2018-unh-commit.html), including "Major Pro upside." Matt Grainda and "He's a big time pro prospect." Jeff Cox, do you think Coach Souza and Stewart settled for a "second rate kid"?

Would you characterize Angus Crookshank as another "second rate kid"?

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

FYI - ‏@THNRyanKennedy
Cameron Crotty (2017 draft) has decommitted from St. Lawrence due to coach Greg Carvel leaving. Tons of schools now pursuing the D-man

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=299556

Bob - I've noticed that entering a prospects name into google often leads to links to eliteprospects.com and Hockeydb.com. I've also found that the height and weight information on these sites is sometimes out of date. That's why I always go to the website of the team the prospect is currently playing for to get more accurate information. This turned out to be the case for Cameron Crotty. The Brockville Braves website lists him as 6'1", 171 lbs. http://cjhl-brockville.stats.pointstreak.com/playerpage.html?playerid=8801273&seasonid=15356

 

[boblav1]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Bob - I've noticed that entering a prospects name into google often leads to links to eliteprospects.com and Hockeydb.com. I've also found that the height and weight information on these sites is sometimes out of date. That's why I always go to the website of the team the prospect is currently playing for to get more accurate information. This turned out to be the case for Cameron Crotty. The Brockville Braves website lists him as 6'1", 171 lbs. http://cjhl-brockville.stats.pointstreak.com/playerpage.html?playerid=8801273&seasonid=15356

Thanks for the tip. I was surprised when Watcher said UNH has never had a recruit from the CCHL.

 

[C-H-C]

Thanks for the tip. I was surprised when Watcher said UNH has never had a recruit from the CCHL.

Watcher has been known to make sarcastic comments from time to time

 

[boblav1]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Watcher has been known to make sarcastic comments from time to time

Got it, thanks.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

In light of what several scouts have said about Corson Green (see http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2016/04/meet-corson-green-2018-unh-commit.html), including "Major Pro upside." Matt Grainda and "He's a big time pro prospect." Jeff Cox, do you think Coach Souza and Stewart settled for a "second rate kid"?

Would you characterize Angus Crookshank as another "second rate kid"?

Crookshank is a nice pick up and a step in the right direction - but a lot more prospects as good, or better, need to commit to UNH and Souza before I back off my current opinions. Guys like Crookshank used to pack UNH recruiting classes. If that happens, I will happily admit to unfairly jumping to conclusions - not afraid to admit when I'm wrong or when connections of mine prove incorrect, mistaken or misunderstood.

As far as Green, no I'm still not thrilled with the pick up. If you re-read my complaints about Green and Bahn you'll note that my biggest issue with those commitments is the timing. The problem is, your report on Green paints the absolute ceiling of his potential. What you did not mention in your post above is how scouting opinions on Green are often accompanied by phrases like "raw", "incredibly raw", "upside", "intriguing", "potential", "if", etc.

He's 6-3, 200+ at age 16 - so obviously, if he puts it all together he's a pro-prospect but that is not even close to a guarantee at this point for Green. UNH had PLENTY of time to wait and see if he actually did put it together (against higher competition*) with very little risk of losing him to other schools. It is my OPINION that Souza should jump on the sure things and follow the projects with upside. Not vice versa...

I remember a few big and 'skilled' pro-prospects, filled with potential named John Doherty, Eddie Caron and Dan Travis. They all busted at UNH. Why? Because they were all touted based on size, potential and production against inferior competition. The EHL* is absolutely awful - Green better look like a future pro in that league. Until he reaches the USHL and produces at a high level or starts to actually realize some of his great 'potential' my opinion remains the same, regardless of what a few scouts project that he COULD be...

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

CHC,

I understand why the quotes on Green are exciting, but Watcher is right that much of the same things were said about Chanter. You expect Green to make a much bigger impact, but would you have pegged Chanter to play only a handful of games in his first two seasons at UNH when you first heard the following quotes? I wouldn't have (and I don't think he should have...). And Chanter was a big get, already playing in the BCHL at 16, with more than a few NCAA offers...

* http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/unh-freshman-dylan-chanter-brings.html
- Central Scouting Service #164, "Shutdown defenceman … smart … quick to react in his own end … strong skater … moves the puck well … keeps things simple in defensive zone … can separate puck carrier from the puck."
- "A physical specimen who plays with overpowering aggressiveness. Will be a draft pick."

Additionally...

* http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/l_en/draftprospectdetail.htm?dpid=94035

* http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/unh-adds-top-1995-prospect-defenseman.html

* http://www.vernonmorningstar.com/sports/140226313.html
- “UNH is getting an elite young prospect with tremendous upside."

It is my humble opinion that most do not have any real inside knowledge about any players that you cannot get off the internet.

BTW, I sent you my email address - I can tell from CHC's last post that he is also still curious about where I get my opinions. Would love for you guys to reach out so I can share!

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Watcher has been known to make sarcastic comments from time to time

Guilty as charged, but this one is true. For whatever reason, no central junior player has ever played for UNH.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Crookshank is a nice pick up and a step in the right direction - but a lot more prospects as good, or better, need to commit to UNH and Souza before I back off my current opinions. Guys like Crookshank used to pack UNH recruiting classes. If that happens, I will happily admit to unfairly jumping to conclusions - not afraid to admit when I'm wrong or when connections of mine prove incorrect, mistaken or misunderstood.

I'd break it down as follows: recruiting involves two skills, predicting and/or selling. I think Dan's point is that most of the successful programs get recruits by selling, supplemented by a few projected diamonds in the rough. The only current exception that jumps to mind is Lowell. Q might also fit into that. Even Q which plays more in the projection realm is winning battles.

Of the Souza recruits, I also have heard good things about Crookshank, and was at least getting looks from Denver, Ohio State and others. While not yet a recruiting battle, we jumped early before the others, so that almost counts. Green has potential, though so do a lot of the kids Dan mentioned. I read Dan's point as being that we jumped a bit early on him, though I don't share that given that with 4 spots on d we could take those chances. As for Bahn, he is solely a projection, and had not even heard from any other college (per your interview). MacAdams also a projection more and recruiting battle.

Let me put in the huge caveat that Souza might have a great scouting eye and nail projections on undrrrecruited kids. Karasak and Thompson at u Conn speak to that.

I would also like to see some evidence of bring able to do the selling part. I was hopeful based on Crookshank's friends and your comments about UNH returning to BC, that this might lead to a head to head win for Sandhu, or a similarly recruited kid. So far no luck.

I sum, I am holding off criticising the projects until we see how they pan out, but would love --a year into it -- to see evidence that we are able to win an actual battle.

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I'd break it down as follows: recruiting involves two skills, predicting and/or selling. I think Dan's point is that most of the successful programs get recruits by selling, supplemented by a few projected diamonds in the rough. The only current exception that jumps to mind is Lowell. Q might also fit into that. Even Q which plays more in the projection realm is winning battles.

Of the Souza recruits, I also have heard good things about Crookshank, and was at least getting looks from Denver, Ohio State and others. While not yet a recruiting battle, we jumped early before the others, so that almost counts. Green has potential, though so do a lot of the kids Dan mentioned. I read Dan's point as being that we jumped a bit early on him, though I don't share that given that with 4 spots on d we could take those chances. As for Bahn, he is solely a projection, and had not even heard from any other college (per your interview). MacAdams also a projection more and recruiting battle.

Let me put in the huge caveat that Souza might have a great scouting eye and nail projections on undrrrecruited kids. Karasak and Thompson at u Conn speak to that.

I would also like to see some evidence of bring able to do the selling part. I was hopeful based on Crookshank's friends and your comments about UNH returning to BC, that this might lead to a head to head win for Sandhu, or a similarly recruited kid. So far no luck.

I sum, I am holding off criticising the projects until we see how they pan out, but would love --a year into it -- to see evidence that we are able to win an actual battle.

With Quinnipiac's recent successes on the national stage, wouldn't you be surprised if they were not winning some recruiting battles?

In addition to other NCAA programs showing interest in Corson Green, there were and are OHL teams that would like to sign him.

The British Columbia prospect that I heard (from a scout very familiar with Western Canada and the competition between NCAA and WHL teams for recruits) UNH was pursuing would be a bigger "get" than Sandhu. But UNH does not have the same status in the recruiting battles that they did when they were routinely qualifying for the NCAA tournament. I have little doubt that Souza and Stewart know they have to be quick and persuasive to win battles against Denver, Notre Dame, BC, BU etc for top British Columbia prospects. I prefer to have UNH still trying to land selected top prospects based on who they know are interested in playing NCAA hockey.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

CHC,
1) Quinnipiac: definitely one path to take, but its a model difficult to emulate. First, it is a much slower gradual growth. Rand literally took 8-10 years to get respectable. Second, it is a more feasible path in the ECAC, which lacks a core top group, so selling a vision of dominance is easier. Third, they benefitted from the rise in the school's academic prowess, and also its brand new arena. I'm not sure that is the model I would stake my claim on.

2) Ability to sell vs. scout. I have no doubt that Corson Green has interest from others, but would not put him in the fought over category. Souza seems to be more comfortable jumping on kids before the recruiting war develops. He's going to have to be a pretty good scout to identify those hidden gems, because there's 60 some odd teams that know about these kids but have not pulled the trigger yet. I'm willing to wait and see on those, though I personally am less comfortable with that model, having seen too many "unkown but I see something" Dylan Mallers not develop. Even with Lowell's success I would not be comfortable with their recruit pipeline. Add in Souza's philosophy of size more so than skill (which is where he had success in finding the unknowns like Tyler Thompson) and we just differ on philosophy.

3) Part of my unhappiness/expressed concern was that I always felt a change at UNH would be sudden, dramatic, and a huge selling point with momentum. (And I don't mean necessarily getting a Tony Granato type name. I was thinking this momentum would work even if they got a Guy Gadowsky a couple years back at Princeton, or another up and coming HC/established assistant like Ben Barr). We can debate how realistic that would have been is debatable. That UNH chose to do this gradually, and with a replacement well down the "known" scale, prevented any of that buzz. Now, I suspect we are on a much more gradual Union/Quinnipiac/Yale model, that build gradually and occasionally hit the mark with a surprise developing kid (the Ghostebieres, Anas, etc, of the world). If you want to know my antipathy toward Dick Umile, it is not directed at Souza because of Souza's merits, but rather that Umile imposed a model very different than the one I thought would be in UNH's best interest. For example, I would have felt differently if he had announced he was retiring in 3 years, and at that point UNH tabbed Souza based on his success the next 3 years either at U.Conn or even as an assistant at UNH. Even then it would be an easier sale to the kids that UNH has tabbed a "rising star" who can point to U.Conn's rise from 11th in HE to 7th from 2013 to 2018, or who recruited X, Y and Z to UNH from 2015 to 2018. That actual success would be a selling point. Instead, we have Umile picking a kid who has the skills needed, but lacks a track record. And I say this as a type B personality, but Souza doesn't strike me as a Type A, Shawn Walsh guy who has a definite plan to assume control on day 1 -- and even if he does, Umile's plan prevented that. I genuinely hope Souza can do everything that has been put on his plate, but I think Umile did him a great disservice. I'm glad to see some movement on him imparting his plan, making realistic decisions on existing committed players.

4) "bigger gets" You point out the risks of top kids who may still jump to major junior. But I also note that getting this sort of kid would signal the rest of the hockey world. For example, I hold dream that Jack Cameron picks UNH, and then a pipedream that his Halifax buddy Shane Bowers decides to be a maveric and not just choose North Dakota/BC/BU. Or that Liam Blackburn of West Kelowna has struck a friendship with Jake Harrison and can sell him on UNH. It will take players selling their friends.

 

[CollegeHockeyRinkReport]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

NCAA Watcher,

I've enjoyed your posts here for years. I will say that I respectfully disagree on your comments towards Corson Green. He is a big time prospect. Midget hockey out here is horrible, but Frank O'Connor has done a nice job carving a decent niche with Northern Cyclones. Green is a big mobile D. Thomas (UVM), Pepin and a few others are decent.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

CHC,

I understand why the quotes on Green are exciting, but Watcher is right that much of the same things were said about Chanter. You expect Green to make a much bigger impact, but would you have pegged Chanter to play only a handful of games in his first two seasons at UNH when you first heard the following quotes? I wouldn't have (and I don't think he should have...). And Chanter was a big get, already playing in the BCHL at 16, with more than a few NCAA offers...

* http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/unh-freshman-dylan-chanter-brings.html
- Central Scouting Service #164, "Shutdown defenceman … smart … quick to react in his own end … strong skater … moves the puck well … keeps things simple in defensive zone … can separate puck carrier from the puck."
- "A physical specimen who plays with overpowering aggressiveness. Will be a draft pick."

Additionally...

* http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/l_en/draftprospectdetail.htm?dpid=94035

* http://unhhockeyblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/unh-adds-top-1995-prospect-defenseman.html

* http://www.vernonmorningstar.com/sports/140226313.html
- “UNH is getting an elite young prospect with tremendous upside."



BTW, I sent you my email address - I can tell from CHC's last post that he is also still curious about where I get my opinions. Would love for you guys to reach out so I can share!

Dan, why not just share them here so the rest of us can get a glimpse into what you think the story is? I mean heck, it's obvious you're a transparent poster who has shown you know what's what. Anyway...as per Chanter and these 'big gets' you wonder what happens to some of them once they actually arrive. For Dylan he had some competition (albeit slight I suppose) ahead of him but should've made his mark and garnered minutes. No idea why that didn't happen (but I'm sure someone knows or what, he wasn't the player he was touted to be? I'm doubting that). He sure will get the minutes this his season barring some kind of major issue...right?

For me the hardest part of all of this has been we don't really know what they (coaching staff) have actually been up to; who they've talked to, etc. I think UNH is up against so much competition (like every other team) for these players to make decisions. I know that sounds like a flimsy excuse.... And unfortunately, could we be caught in the spiral of 'lack of success' that these players want? They know they are two years out from putting on the blue and white; all they have to go on is what's happening now and sadly I doubt they hold onto the past as a measure of success (which they should IMHO) I'm sure the staff is selling a future vision to these players that they can be a part of (this has been mentioned) and it would be nice if we can get back to a semblance of even the 2012-13 team in the next couple. Need the horses tho..they ended up 10th after leading the nation at Christmas. Appreciate the conversations here!!

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

NCAA Watcher,

I will say that I respectfully disagree on your comments towards Corson Green. He is a big time prospect. ...Green is a big mobile D.

Jeff, I'm a bit confused given your scouting report of him at the Select Festival last summer (http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/col...kings-scouting-reports-99s-defensemen-goalies), rating him the 26th best defenseman. You also noted his skating issues, with which I agree. So, you have a big kid dominating a weak league. Lots of kids with a stick skills and a physical advantage can take advantage of that. He has raw skills, so if he can improve his skating he'll be a good D, but at present, he has not elevated when head to head with more talented players.

26. Corson Green
Orange #2
DOB: 3/4/99
Height/Weight: 6-2/200
Shoots: Left
Hometown: Potsdam, NY
2014-15 Team: CIH Academy
USHL Draft: --
College Commitment: --

His speed and foot speed needs improvement, but his size and big frame are intriguing. He's awkward on his skates, but he has a good stick, maintains defensive zone coverage and does a good job one-on-one. He's decent going straight forward and can push the transition. He's a fifth round OHL selection of the Soo Greyhounds so a defection to major junior is a possibility.

 

[CollegeHockeyRinkReport]

Jeff, I'm a bit confused given your scouting report of him at the Select Festival last summer (http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/col...kings-scouting-reports-99s-defensemen-goalies), rating him the 26th best defenseman. You also noted his skating issues, with which I agree. So, you have a big kid dominating a weak league. Lots of kids with a stick skills and a physical advantage can take advantage of that. He has raw skills, so if he can improve his skating he'll be a good D, but at present, he has not elevated when head to head with more talented players.

I have seen him a few times since and I do think he's better now, but some of those things still hold true obviously. However, I will say I think he has potential to grow into body and become a better skater. There were several teams on him and I know OHL team likes him as well.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I have seen him a few times since and I do think he's better now, but some of those things still hold true obviously. However, I will say I think he has potential to grow into body and become a better skater. There were several teams on him and I know OHL team likes him as well.

I think that the OHL scouts liked Green, and that you see potential does make him an intriguing project. My point is only that if he is your highest profile "recruiting battle win" and you have Reilly Walsh, Mirageas, Rathbone, Connor Mayer, Pirko, Lillibridge, Callahan, Kislin, Craft, and Dubay above him in his age group, there is interest, but it's not against the HE big boys (BU, BC and PC, who are tapped out). I freely admit that Thompson fits that same profile, and worked out brilliantly for U.Conn. That is why I put Green in the "project/scouting" pile rather than the "selling/recruiting" pile.

I guess to try and express it differently, UNH is not yet winning in the field of "everyone is offering a full" type of kids. I await such a win.

 

[jeteye1717]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

It's always enjoyable - and informative - to read the various opinions/projections/wild a** guesses re: how much of an impact - and how soon - each of the young men who've committed to UNH will have on the program going forward; many thanks to all who contribute ...

As part of this ongoing discussion re: recruiting, there's been some off & on talk here on the UNH thread(s) re: factors that enter into the decision-making process for potential student-athletes and their parents, and whether the Whitt is sufficiently up to snuff with the amenities that matter. I haven't visited the off-ice areas of the Whitt in well over a decade, but we're told that currently there's no real player's lounge, no players-only weight room, the 'classroom' (for lack of a better term) for video review / game planning is small and cramped, etc. What once was state-of-the-art when the Whitt opened in 1995 is now dated and showing its age, the new Jumbotron aside. How much does this *really* matter?

I chose UNH for my undergraduate, and later - graduate - studies in no small part due to the faculty and facilities I'd have access to on a daily basis; I'm sure it's no different for potential Wildcat hockey players. How much of a recruiting disadvantage is UNH facing right now as the Whitt matures into middle age? Compared to what passed for 'amenities' in Lively Snively, I never thought that would be an issue at the Whitt, but recent news/articles posted to USCHO and elsewhere has gotten me to thinkin' ...

* http://www.denverpost.com/colleges/ci_29813111/pioneers-plan-remodel-home

"The Pioneers intend to renovate and expand their off-ice space at Magness Arena, spending as much as $2 million by the beginning of the 2017-18 season. In addition to a new locker room, the space will include a new lounge for the players with a full kitchen, dry dressing room, and coaches room. 'We still get a lot of great recruits,' said Denver Head Coach Jim Montgomery, 'but we've lost on some recruits because we don't have that wow factor when they walk into our locker room like they do at North Dakota, Miami or UNO.'

North Dakota, Miami, and St. Cloud State have pumped millions into arena/locker room renovations, UNO moved into a lavish new facility this past season, and Minnesota-Duluth opened a new arena in 2010. 'It's going on 17 years since this building has been here [Magness Arena opened in 1999] and nothing has been done to the locker room. We need to give it the pop it needs of an elite-level program,' Montgomery said. 'I think if there's any part of our program that can prevent us from sustaining being a top-five program - which I think we are - it would be the dressing room and lounge area.'"

* http://www.theplayerstribune.com/tommy-olczyk-penn-state-hockey/

One Last Roar by Tommy Olczyk, Center / Penn State

"Nothing gets a group of hockey guys giddier than any kind of new thing. Suddenly, we had a cutting edge training room and weight room, a lounge with a big flat-screen TV, a locker room that we actually wanted to change in plus a study room, which got pretty crowded during exam weeks ... Guys would go to Pegula [Arena] in the morning to hang out, then go to class, then come back to the rink for a workout, then go back to class, and then return for practice. Heck, I spent so much time with the guys at Pegula that I’ve probably only showered twice at my own home this year" ...

[and BTW, here's hoping that UNH schedules a game in Happy Valley sometime soon, as the photo accompanying this article of Penn State player introductions is just amazing; I need an excuse to see it for myself in person, Blue 'n White vs. Blue 'n White]

I'm under no illusions that Big Changes along the lines of those high-lighted here are coming to the Whitt anytime soon; Marty and Co. have no doubt squeezed the donor stone for all its worth to pay for the shiny new addition/upgrades to Cowell Stadium. But at some point I have to think that the 'wow factor' that's currently lacking at the Whitt will begin having an ever more deleterious effect on recruiting. I've always loved watching games there (well, these last few seasons have been a bit trying but spending hour after hour there as a player is another thing entirely ...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

+1 Great post jeteye1717 Very true players today would find those improvements valuable...and while it's not the most popular topic the addition of the 'tron, like it or not , matters. Heard money is at an even bigger premium at the U (Athletics) as hockey hasn't been the big money maker it was (duh) so I'm thinking Whitt improvements aren't a priority . And of course these are all conjectures and many great players end up at schools with lesser facilities than ours so there's that..