UNH 2024/2025 Goldberg Edition

[TheGrouchyCat]

If UNH had a top coach, he'd likely get poached and leave for a better funded program.

When Dick was at the top of his game, UMASS tried to poach him and he stayed put. Did he use it for leverage to negotiate a better package? Of course. But, if he left the safe confines of Durham, the good old boy network wouldn't have been able to protect him and promote his "legend" status.

Safety and stability often beat out the high risk, high reward of a better paying gig. The grass isn't always greener.

 

[Darius]

...I ask, because you rolled out "byproduct of the frugal, yankee New Hampshire tradition of doing more with less" and I need to know if you mean that in a complimentary or derisory way? Because if your idea of improving things at UNH is attached to bloated budgets driven by a lot of needless extras, that's kinda important to know. Seems like the on-campus housing "crisis" of yore has been dealt with nicely. Again, I'll wait ...

Can it not be both?

Which one? They date back to post WW II and all were resolved. The most recent has been aided by declining enrollment. Stoke was constructed as a response in the 1960s. "Nicely" is not a word often associated with Stoke.

 

[Dan]

As TGC alluded to above, the last time UNH had a hockey coach worthy of being paid amongst the games highest salaries they paid him accordingly…

UNH Hockey having such success that Souza or another coach is poached away makes me giddy. Should that happen, they simply need to make another good hire to what would suddenly be a much more desirable head coaching position…

 

[Potluck]

Chuck: As of 2022 UNH's admissions rate was 87%. In other words, applicants are almost certain to get it (I'm serious). It's a beautiful campus...that's about it for now. I went by the library on a visit in August, which was like visiting Allentown, Pennsylvania. The library has been in decline for 50 years. You learn a great deal about the priorities of a University when you simply tour the library. There's only been a few cosmetic changes since I left in the 80s. I saw that Hetzel Hall was getting renovated though so that was nice to see. I attended UNH in the 80s. It was a far more competitive school then. Not sure why you want to take the ad hominem approach to attacking my very legitimate concerns. BTW, making it personal is a sign you have a failing argument.

Do we even need to discuss Robert Morin, perhaps the most generous librarian in US history? He left $4 million to UNH, which just threw it away on a football scoreboard? The guy spent his entire life working in the library and UNH blew the money on a sports scoreboard.

Grouchycat: If UNH was a private business it would be deeply underfunded with dwindling consumer demand. Its employees would be deeply underpaid. The most productive employees would consistently leave for greener pastures. It's an inherently dubious proposition to compare for profit businesses to non-profits, as you should know. The priorities for each by law MUST be different. The only things keeping UNH alive currently are out of state students and federal research grants. Without those two things, it's kaput. The NH taxpayers have just let the place go.

My point? Blaming little Mike Souza for all things UNH hockey is tantamount to blaming Robert Morin for not leaving enough money to donate to UNH. The problem is exponentially greater than them.

 

[Potluck]

Chuck: As of your hockey facilities post, I've seen videos of the player/coach amenities at UConn (Toscano), Providence, UMass Lowell, Boston College, Boston University, UMass. That's six I've seen. UNH is not competitive with any of them. Maine has the Shawn Walsh Center coming. I haven't seen Northeastern. I haven't seen UNH personally but my understanding is the player/coach amenities are from the last generation. The heart or recruiting is facilities/amenities/university commitment to the program. UNH is not able to compete with the rest of HE on these issues.

 

[teez]

Apologies in advance for going off topic but in other UNH athletics news:

Men's Basketball is off to a 2-10 (wins against UMass-Boston and Endicott) start. Nathan Davis had a moderately successful first season at UNH last year with a 16-15 record, but nearly all of the credit goes to Clarence Daniels who was UNH's second ever America East player of the year award recipient, exactly 30 years after Scott Drapeau won in '94. Did a bit of googling and it appears that Nathan Davis was given a 5 year contract, which is stunning to me. Going to repeat that once more...5 years! My prediction is that in the next 1-2 years we're looking back on Herrion's tenure with a smidge of nostalgia.


Source: https://www.basketballforum.com/threads/coach-contracts-expiration-dates.688368/

 

[TheGrouchyCat]

Chuck: As of 2022 UNH's admissions rate was 87%. In other words, applicants are almost certain to get it (I'm serious). It's a beautiful campus...that's about it for now. I went by the library on a visit in August, which was like visiting Allentown, Pennsylvania. The library has been in decline for 50 years. You learn a great deal about the priorities of a University when you simply tour the library. There's only been a few cosmetic changes since I left in the 80s. I saw that Hetzel Hall was getting renovated though so that was nice to see. I attended UNH in the 80s. It was a far more competitive school then. Not sure why you want to take the ad hominem approach to attacking my very legitimate concerns. BTW, making it personal is a sign you have a failing argument.

Do we even need to discuss Robert Morin, perhaps the most generous librarian in US history? He left $4 million to UNH, which just threw it away on a football scoreboard? The guy spent his entire life working in the library and UNH blew the money on a sports scoreboard.

Grouchycat: If UNH was a private business it would be deeply underfunded with dwindling consumer demand. Its employees would be deeply underpaid. The most productive employees would consistently leave for greener pastures. It's an inherently dubious proposition to compare for profit businesses to non-profits, as you should know. The priorities for each by law MUST be different. The only things keeping UNH alive currently are out of state students and federal research grants. Without those two things, it's kaput. The NH taxpayers have just let the place go.

My point? Blaming little Mike Souza for all things UNH hockey is tantamount to blaming Robert Morin for not leaving enough money to donate to UNH. The problem is exponentially greater than them.

As a global corporate executive, I assure you that under sound management there would be more than a few come to Jesus conversations about the wanton and wreckless capital expenditures to "compete for the tuition dollar." Yes, the University is underfunded, but the school hasn't done itself any favors with questionable investments and subscribing to the practice that more buildings are better.

Of course, whomever authorized the donation to be used on the scoreboard should have been fired on the spot.

Sticking to the athletic department, my first order of business would be to wind down the football team and shift budget over to hockey, just like BU did years ago. If the school tries to be all things to all people from a sports perspective, it will inevitably fail at all things.

 

[Dan]

There is anecdotal evidence and then there is, I was walking through the library so UNH will never invest in Hockey again evidence…

There is no evidence that UNH will not invest in a winning hockey program or that fundraising dollars would not exist for a winning hockey program. I’ll say again - the last time UNH had a head hockey coach worthy of a nationally competitive salary, he received a nationally competitive salary. Period.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Fe2gu5QyNPwfaXslABX/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true

This spreadsheet from 2022 lists Souza’s salary at 240,000. That’s 14,000 more than Ben Barr made for the same season! What does that tell us..?

First, a quarter of a million dollars per year can buy you a heck of a college hockey coach if you chose wisely.

Second, UNH certainly appears to pay market rate for a first time head coach.

Souza is 26-19-3 in the last year plus. Modest. If he can build on that, and win at a significant level, then and only then would he deserve a raise. If UNH fails to give him one, fails to retain him, or fails to invest in a winning program then and only then can we proclaim with any evidence that UNH cannot afford a winning coach…

Pre-Ben Barr Maine was a poor school that couldn’t afford to invest in college hockey at a winning level. Then they got a 226k coach who changed everything. Once he started winning and filling Alford Arena, Maine’s arithmetic offered new answers. Increased revenue and enthusiasm made a 425k contract and millions of dollars in development funds easy decisions for the department/donors. And suddenly, with success, Maine has become a player again. The program is worth investing in.

The money exists to make productive decisions and develop on ice success at UNH. But they have to make good decisions. THEN we’ll see what follows…

Assuming what will follow, pretending the current level of investment cannot lead to success - those are lazy or unimaginative takes, and frankly excuses.

When UNH has generated enthusiasm on the ice, the university has paid to foster it. Until they show otherwise, I believe they’d be willing to do so again…

When UNH has won hockey games, donors have contributed generously to the program. Until I see otherwise, I believe they’d be willing to do so again…

The first step is canning the woe is us attitude at every level it exists.

 

[Potluck]

Dan: I appreciate the Tony Robbins speech but that's all it really is. The failure to get the renovations going is about money. Second rate player facilities is money. You're argument that you can simply talk people into accepting less is pretty hollow stuff when the audience knows better. Good recruits have advisors and parents that can see through the Tony Robbins foolishness. Commitment is unmistakable when you see it. I've been reading about the third rate customer service treatment season ticket holders get from the administration. That's NOT Mike Souza. The elimination of the Friends of UNH hockey. Not Mike Souza. Mike Souza is likely not the solution. But he's also not the problem.

 

[Dan]

Potluck -

Your response tells me you have less interest in understanding or debating the issues at hand, than simply efforting to reinforce your pre-existing perceptions. I’ll take the bait. If youre interested in diving into this, feel free to address the following (I’ll try to be a little less inspiring and a bit more direct). If not, pass on a response and save us both the time...

* The last time UNH had a successful college hockey coach the university paid him the highest salary in the state of New Hampshire and at a rate comparable to his most successful peers.

UNH has always had budget constraints, limitations and deficits (relative to its peers). Money has always been a problem. Staffing has always been a problem. The issue of academic versus athletic expense has always existed. Yet, the only evidence we have tells us UNH will pay a winning coach a high-end salary. What evidence do you have that the next winning coach of UNH Hockey would not be paid? Surely, it must be more than the fact that the current coach - yet to win at a high level - is not making a big salary?

* The University of Maine/State of Maine has the very same financial struggles as UNH, perhaps moreso. UM's hockey program was in a deeper hole and face(d) the same athletic department issues in terms of limited budget and staff. We heard the same excuses on their thread, that we make on ours today.
* Maine hired Ben Barr for LESS than UNH paid to hire Souza.

How would you compare the tenures of Barr & Souza? Despite facing all of the same obstacles Barr has rejuvenated the Black Bear program - how?

* Following significant success in recruiting and on-ice play, Maine has seen increased fan support, athletic department investment and fundraising.
* Under Umile, a winning UNH Hockey program received strong institutional, departmental and donor support.

Again, there is little to no evidence to support UNH would not fund a successful hockey program. The last time they were successful, they did in fact lean into that success. Your belief is that on-ice success would change nothing in program support or donor support, correct? Where have you seen UNH fail to lean into success? Why do you believe Maine won first and received support second? Do you think there is a correlation between perception of UNH's on-ice product and departmental investment/donor excitement? Would the funds to complete the proposed renovation be more or less likely to arrive if UNH has a strong finish to the 2024-25 season?

* IMO, UNH has significant ADVANTAGES over UMaine. Why are they chasing NCAA Tournaments and we are not?

Is the answer as simple as Ben Barr? Could Ben Barr win at UNH? Why did Ben Barr accept a $226,000 salary to coach at UMaine? Would he have turned down $240,000 to coach at UNH?

If you don’t believe Souza is the answer, did you at one time? Do you believe he was hired because UNH was limited in what they would offer and not because he was Umile’s desired successor? If UNH was willing to offer more would they ignore Umile’s wishes?

--

I am NOT of the opinion that UNH will not support the program, but of the opinion that UNH will support a program they believe has earned their support. We are all UNH Hockey fans and want to see a commitment to the hockey program above all others. IMO, that's a commitment UNH should make. Its their path to revenue and athletic success/prestige.

Instead, beginning under Scarano and continuing to date - UNH seems to lean into whatever program is winning. When hockey won, UNH was a hockey school and they invested as such (new stadium). When football won, UNH was a football school and invested as such (new stadium). When soccer won, UNH became a soccer school and invested as such (new stadium).

If UNH is to be a hockey school again, then Souza (and Witt) need to win at a high level. Or be replaced by someone who will. Investment and enthusiasm will follow...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Gotta admit, the quality of the posts over the last couple of days has been entertaining. Before getting into a limited point that will serve future posting from this corner, I do want to address something my amigo the Grouch mentioned about the infamous donation left by Robert Morin - Superfan Librarian to UNH upon his passing, and how that might be a terminal (?) offense if he were in charge ... having gone up and down both sides of this argument many times before - back when you were executiving globally, apparently - unless RM-SL stated specifically in his will, or in his grant that his posthumous donation should be earmarked for a specific project, then it's totally up to UNH on where that money was to be spent. If RM-SL wanted his money to go towards the library, he easily could have made that a condition of his gift, like many other end-of-life donors do. But he didn't, and in (not) doing so, he basically told the folks at the U that it was up to them to make the most of it, as they saw fit.

Folks have gotten a lot of humor at the U's expense with their laughable cover story of how RM-SL became a rabid football fan in his final days, and I find that hilarious as well. Nothing better than seeing what a group of highly defensive academic gasbags can concoct to try to justify a tricky real-world proposition, and the myth of RM-SL is something they would have been better never uttering a word about. They easily could have just done what they did, and either said nothing, or accurately stated Morin didn't want his money specifically going anywhere. Because it's nearly as hilarious to see folks presuming to have known what Morin wanted his money spent on posthumously, and the rank assumptions they are making about what he "really wanted". As if a UNH lifer librarian was incapable of making an informed decision, really wanted his money to go to a library refresh (because libraries aren't really obsolete, to a degree), and the general fund approach to his gift was a "mistake", which in the end allowed Scarano to apply generous noogies to the other department heads in his winning campaign for the funds for Chez Blue Skies.

The one and only time in the history of these boards I've ever felt the need to defend the U and its former AD. Ick. I gotta go take a shower, thanks ol' buddy. But I digress. Onwards to this little nugget ...

Dan: I appreciate the Tony Robbins speech but that's all it really is. The failure to get the renovations going is about money. Second rate player facilities is money. You're argument that you can simply talk people into accepting less is pretty hollow stuff when the audience knows better. Good recruits have advisors and parents that can see through the Tony Robbins foolishness. Commitment is unmistakable when you see it. I've been reading about the third rate customer service treatment season ticket holders get from the administration. That's NOT Mike Souza. The elimination of the Friends of UNH hockey. Not Mike Souza. Mike Souza is likely not the solution. But he's also not the problem.

You have an interesting take on what these advisors focus their energies on, potty. Don't you think these hockey advisors, charged with guiding their young clients' families to their best long-term outcomes, are the slightest bit interested in the abilities of the various HC's seeking to enlist their little Junior Jeteye, to transform JJ from a raw four-star recruit to the promised land of being a bottom six forward/bottom four defenseman in The Show?? Because unlike his predecessors at the same school (one of whom never got a chance to coach in the "outdated" Whitt), MS7 has virtually zero demonstrated ability to turn that important little trick. If anything, MS7 had demonstrated an uncanny ability to transform some AHL level talents into 'Coast lifers. So while you vouch for the recruiting power of Extra Comfy Hockey Lounges, said advisors know all too well the MS7 Experience includes a finale in a very different sort of ECHL.

Anyway, good luck with the forthcoming response from "Tony Robbins", I got my popcorn and soda out for that ...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Can it not be both?

Which one? They date back to post WW II and all were resolved. The most recent has been aided by declining enrollment. Stoke was constructed as a response in the 1960s. "Nicely" is not a word often associated with Stoke.

As you know, the lack of on-campus housing was a pre-eminent issue at UNH for much of the last years of the 20th century, and first few years of this century. I can't speak to Stoke's origins, as it pre-dates my life experience, but it does not appear all that unlike other towers of its time at other schools in the Northeast (thinking UMass Amherst, Providence, and even Warren Towers at BU), and none of them have gotten awards for their architecture or design. Very utilitarian, almost Soviet-style block houses (on college campuses yet, how ironic LOL).

I would not blink twice if they nuked Stoke some summer, and did something different over there. I miss the old New England Center nearby, which was sacrificed to the on-campus housing gods about 15 years ago? But somewhere between then and now, the on-campus housing issue became less of a prominent issue. Declining enrollments may have helped as well, and that may continue, following the more current trends.

"Nicely" was another loose compliment to UNH in general, and how it managed to improve the old situation, where students would often be living in apartments/rented condos in Newmarket, Madbury and Dover. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are still one or two prominent lots in the downtown area that were condemned old frat houses? I'm sure someone has a double-secret plan for how to use that space down the road.

Two defenses of UNH in a single day's worth of posting. Darius, I'm on the verge of becoming a UNH apologist!!

 

[Potluck]

Dan: Umile had a brand new hockey arena fall into his lap a few years into his tenure. When built, the Whit was the number 2 college hockey rink in the east. Bill Bowes likely could have recruited good hockey players during the first few years in that place. Umile took advantage of the low hanging fruit and won a lot of games. But then the building and Whistling Dick aged . The one that could be updated never was.

Umile only got the big salary boost by threatening to leave for UMass. That’s not supporting a program. That’s responding to a threat. That’s very poor management to let it come to that.

I’d like to know the recruiting budgets at all HE schools. During Walsh’s heyday he had Grant Standbrook basically on the road full time recruiting. Does anyone doubt UNH is near the bottom of HE recruiting budgets?

 

[Dan]

You’re simply being disingenuous.

Despite facing all of the same obstacles, it’s happening at Maine. Why? You can’t stick your head in the sand and ignore that reality and expect to be taken seriously…

As to your other points…

Here’s what Umile accomplished leading up to opening the Whittemore Center:

22-11-2
24-11-2 - NCAAs
18-17-3
25-12-3 - NCAAs
22-10-4 - NCAAs

That is by definition investing in a successful program and on-ice product. A consistently sold out Snively provided an increased revenue stream and impetuous for a larger home. A ‘Tony Robbin’s’ level of excitement in the fan base led to increased giving…

Youve proposed that even if UNH could get a great young coach they’d never keep him because another school would hire him away. And your argument as to why this would happen is because UNH only paid Umile when another school tried to hire him away..?!

Regardless, Umile got a big bump and was paid very well for his successes. When this went down he had led the Wildcats to 7 NCAA Tournaments in nine years. Essentially after he won UNH stepped up and paid accordingly to keep him. Mindblowing mismanagement…

UNH has historically done everything you think they won’t do now. If you think they’ve changed that’s fine, it’s your opinion but it’s based on nothing more than your opinion…

 

[Chuck Murray]

Dan: Umile had a brand new hockey arena fall into his lap a few years into his tenure. When built, the Whit was the number 2 college hockey rink in the east. Bill Bowes likely could have recruited good hockey players during the first few years in that place. Umile took advantage of the low hanging fruit and won a lot of games. But then the building and Whistling Dick aged . The one that could be updated never was.

Umile won about 110 games over five (5) full seasons as HC when home base was Snively and JFK Arena in Manch.

Souza has won about 80 games over six-plus seasons in The Whitt, which was built because of Umile's success.

You can't seriously be trying to argue that Umile started to win AFTER they built The Whitt??

I'm starting to think Dan is 100% correct when he called your previous response(s) "unserious" ...

 

[bakchk20]

instead decided to spend his decision-making capital on eliminating the competitive edge he had with the larger ice surface.

Sorry to sidebar from the current dialog. Some fair points and considerations from all you guys in this debate. To distill it down to the simplest and most obvious, as Nike said of Tiger: "winning takes care of everything". Just win...

Chuck - I don't think this is a fair bullet to fire at MS7. I know you loved the big sheet, as did a bunch of other people on here (nod to you, Dan, with due respect for our long-ago repartee on the topic...). And truthfully, I did as well - intially. But over time I reaized it was the novelty I liked, not the game on the big sheet. Clearly, some of this boils down to personal preference and for me, some personal experience. Probably TMI but I've played (poorly) decades of sh!!ty mens league hockey all over NH. But the eye-opener for me was during the 3 years I lived in Orlando. We played at the RDV facility which has both; NHL and Oly sheets. Playing D, I hated games on the big sheet. Of course it was no-check so with all that perimeter room, you never dared to challenge a forward entering the zone. Goalies would be screaming at us; "step - up on him!!" We'd be like, "ok, but you'd better be ready for the guy to be in your face...alone". At the much higher level of D-1 hockey, I gotta believe this became a real factor - of the many - in the now universal decisions to shrink college rinks. The advantage for jitterbug forwards was not an advantage for the guys playing D.

Anyway, I digress and recognize I'm beating a dead horse. Bottom line for me as a fan...I prefer to see the skill (or not) of players in tight, close quarters under pressure with impending contact, not winging it around the perimeter, going for a sunday afternoon lake-skate, which always bored the crap out of me. But thats just me.

Lastly, as a matter of fact, by this time next season - fall 2025 - the last 2 Oly sheets in college hockey (Alaska and St. Cloud) will be converted to NHL or hybrid. That makes all (probably a dozen+/-) rinks build in the Oly-sheet zenith of the 90's to be shrunk. Seems that a lot of qualified hockey minds don't feel the "competitive advantage" (goalies hated it too) stands up as a "must have" anymore. It was largely a recruiting thing at the time that evolved to became a recruiting disadvantage, especially when the IOC allowed NHL players into the winter games in late 90's. Times have changed.

FWIW, this is a link to an old article on the topic but the case made for shrinking still holds up, IMHO.

https://www.therinklive.com/mens-di...ege-hockey-olympic-sized-rinks-are-going-away

 

[Snively65]

I was against shrinking the rink before I was for shrinking the rink.

But glad that I got to watch Tyler Kelleher’s “Sunday afternoon lake-skates” when I did.

 

[Snively65]

I would not blink twice if they nuked Stoke some summer, and did something different over there. I miss the old New England Center nearby, which was sacrificed to the on-campus housing gods about 15 years ago? But somewhere between then and now, the on-campus housing issue became less of a prominent issue. Declining enrollments may have helped as well, and that may continue, following the more current trends.

The New England Center was built with support from all six state universities in New England to host conferences. When the other states pulled their financial support, UNH tried to make a go of it alone as an on-campus learning experience in management for its fledgling Hotel and Hospitality program in the Whittemore Business School. I spent a weekend there at a Bentley University retreat at the time. When that UNH graduate program waned (not sure it still exists as have not looked it up) and could no longer manage the NEC on its own without a major financial loss, UNH converted the space to student accommodations, not because they needed the dorm space but because that was the best option.

 

[Darius]

As a global corporate executive, I assure you that under sound management there would be more than a few come to Jesus conversations about the wanton and wreckless capital expenditures to "compete for the tuition dollar." Yes, the University is underfunded, but the school hasn't done itself any favors with questionable investments and subscribing to the practice that more buildings are better.

Of course, whomever authorized the donation to be used on the scoreboard should have been fired on the spot.

Sticking to the athletic department, my first order of business would be to wind down the football team and shift budget over to hockey, just like BU did years ago. If the school tries to be all things to all people from a sports perspective, it will inevitably fail at all things.

Your global corporation matches employee charitable contributions, correct?

Highly unlikely. If it does, UNH and the athletic department have much bigger issues than head coaches, rink sizes, unrestricted bequeaths, library renovations, etc.

 

[Aerman]

Once upon a time the big sheets were hockey’s version of the metric system, it’s where “everybody” was going. Never came to fruition and it’s no surprise the pendulum swung back. BUT, IMO, the big sheet was an advantage when the Cats could skate at least as well as anyone in the country and better than most. There have been flashes of talent here and there, but it’s been more than a decade since the whole team had that skill level. That said, those fast and flashy teams would often struggle on the NHL rinks where you could expect most of the postseason games to be played.