UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Al Pike's story on the weekend:

http://www.seacoastonline.com/sports/20181112/mens-college-hockey-frustrating-start-continues-for-cats

 

[chickod]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

What is a bad look is lack of hustle. Maybe he never catches the guy most likely not but to give up is unacceptable. Unfortunately it’s one part of the game you can’t teach

And that's the point. People readily accept "You can't teach speed." But they seem to think that you CAN teach hustle. Your ability is your ability - across the board. It's all encoded into our DNA. You can't make someone "hustle" any more than you can make them six inches taller. I don't know how many times I have heard people say a player is "lazy." But nobody says a bottom-tier player "should learn to score goals better." Neither has a lot of control. You are what you have been given. You can increase incrementally is some cases. But if it were that easy, then every player would be the same. I'll always remember a center fielder for the Red Sox in the 60s by the name of Jim Gosger. He was never more than a journeyman outfielder, but he would sprint full speed out to the field before an inning and do the same coming back to the dugout. Curt Gowdy would continuously say "Look at Gosger hustle out to his position!" But then you have the Orioles outfielder George Hendrick (affectionately known as the "Easy Rider" or "Captain Easy"). They are what they are. You can't control the natural gait at which you walk any more than you can control the age when you start balding. It's all encoded. We can only make the most of what we have. Are you the president of your company? Why not? Just "work harder." But that's not the way it is. People have been putting this rap on players forever. But the reality is it's all part of the package. I'm not "defending" Gildon. And if you have seen him "work harder" in the past (and you have certainly seen him more than I) then perhaps in this instance I'm wrong. But in general, these things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Snively65]

And that's the point. People readily accept "You can't teach speed." But they seem to think that you CAN teach hustle. Your ability is your ability - across the board. It's all encoded into our DNA. You can't make someone "hustle" any more than you can make them six inches taller. I don't know how many times I have heard people say a player is "lazy." But nobody says a bottom-tier player "should learn to score goals better." Neither has a lot of control. You are what you have been given. You can increase incrementally is some cases. But if it were that easy, then every player would be the same. I'll always remember a center fielder for the Red Sox in the 60s by the name of Jim Gosger. He was never more than a journeyman outfielder, but he would sprint full speed out to the field before an inning and do the same coming back to the dugout. Curt Gowdy would continuously say "Look at Gosger hustle out to his position!" But then you have the Orioles outfielder George Hendrick (affectionately known as the "Easy Rider" or "Captain Easy"). They are what they are. You can't control the natural gait at which you walk any more than you can control the age when you start balding. It's all encoded. We can only make the most of what we have. Are you the president of your company? Why not? Just "work harder." But that's not the way it is. People have been putting this rap on players forever. But the reality is it's all part of the package. I'm not "defending" Gildon. And if you have seen him "work harder" in the past (and you have certainly seen him more than I) then perhaps in this instance I'm wrong. But in general, these things are not mutually exclusive.

Provocative argument, chickod. But, I think that some players can change if prompted, such as by money. Take our very own JvR, who was ridiculed for his gliding around the ice for two years at UNH, rarely mixing it up in front of the net. And, he still got his left hand injured during his second year, which he noticeably protected during the second half of that season. But, since turning pro, he has made a living from going to the dirty areas in front of the net, especially on the power play.

Wow, I had entirely forgotten about Jim Gosger.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Provocative argument, chickod. But, I think that some players can change if prompted, such as by money. Take our very own JvR, who was ridiculed for his gliding around the ice for two years at UNH, rarely mixing it up in front of the net. And, he still got his left hand injured during his second year, which he noticeably protected during the second half of that season. But, since turning pro, he has made a living from going to the dirty areas in front of the net, especially on the power play.

Wow, I had entirely forgotten about Jim Gosger.

...And so many of these great players like you mention? The big dogs who sign them already know their skill set. They take them regardless of a bobble on a powerplay etc if you know what I mean. Most here thought we'd get a 4th year with TvR due to his injury, 'member? That didn't happen. Anyway....big weekend ahead...what will be in store for our 'Cats?

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Speaking generally...

What fans across all sports constantly fail to realize is that so many great players look like their not trying, BECAUSE they're great. This fan inclination to criticize great talents for not fast-twitch muscling as much as the lesser players who HAVE to do so just to keep up has always bothered me. Gildon, like JVR, plays extremely hard the vast majority of the time. It should not be an indictment of them just because players like Chris Miller and Kohei Sato have to move their legs at 300 RPM to cover the same ground. Good players can get up to top speed with a few strides, they can maintain it in their glides and keep it with a few pumps rather than many. Its what separates them. This idea that if they pumped their legs as hard as other's they'd go even faster is just misguided. So is the idea that it would be good for them to do so. Their greatness and skill comes from their ability to make the game appear to slow down - allowing them to make plays and see things other players cannot...

Just look at a sampling of the names of past UNH players who I've seen criticized on this board for lack of hustle or not playing hard enough - Gildon, JVR, Poturalski, TK, DeSimone, Kessel, Collins, C. Hemingway, B. Hemingway, even Darren Haydar. Anyone notice a pattern? Yup, they're all studs who can get up to speed, maintain their speed, who dominated the 'hustlers' that surrounded them at the college level and made it look (too) easy the entire time. Its what good players look like. Yes, its always fun when you watch a good player who becomes great by adding hustle to his game (McFlikier/Saviano). Good for those players. Other great players just look different. Jason Krog played at an extremely high level while making it look easy and as if it required little effort. So did Derek Bekar. I bet Ralph Cox looked the same way at times. But people get frustrated, their frustrations zero in on the best players for not doing even more then they're already providing and 'lack of effort' or 'caring' is the easiest thing (see most intangible) to point to...

Gildon's play was a bad one. He probably did let up when he realized he couldn't catch Bowers. Why he did (lazy/strategic) is a different argument, one I'm not interested in having and one only he can answer. But questioning the overall effort he gives to UNH Hockey because he doesn't look like the worker bee some players around him do is unfounded and unnecessary. He plays his rear end off 99% of the time. If he coasts once in a while so he can play over 50% of the game and lug every puck, so be it. That's what they're asking him to do.

Same with JVR - who's max effort simply looked different from many of the players around him when he was at UNH. He went to the net - he scored a lot of goals at the net in blue and white. He's the same guy now in the NHL - posters on this board just don't have to watch him every night with the fate of their favorite team riding on his performance. He was good and cared then. He's good and cares now.

---

I know some like to mock taking every opportunity to watch and learn about these players - but get to the game early when Miami comes to town and watch them warm-up. Try to pick out the best players as quickly as you can. I think what you'll notice, is that the first thing that jumps out to you is that some players look like they're really trying when they're getting up to top skating speed or that some players really have to put the effort into handling and shooting pucks. Meanwhile, other players can just do it. They'll be passing their teammates while their legs seem still. They'll flick their wrists and dot corners with hard and quick snap shots. Check the game program and you'll likely find out these are the best and most productive players on their team. I bet you'll pick out Miami's Grant Hutton immediately - the tall, athletic kid who moves easily, even when he appears to be standing still and shoots the puck better than anyone with the effort it would take you and I to swipe up on our cell phones. Its often not a lack of effort - its the ease in which the game comes to them. Its their higher ability and skill level. Its the reality of athleticism...

Its why you can go to a baseball/softball field and determine the best athlete in moments - based on how they run onto the field or field/throw a single ball. Its rarely the one who sprints onto the field like a mad man, even though that's what turns so many coaches on. Its the one who makes it look second-nature and easy. Like they were born to play the game. Hard work is great. Talent is more important. Its great when kis hit for hours after practice in an effort to get better. Its great when kids run real hard on the bases. The kid who can just hit and the kid who can just run is still going to play and produce more. And the fact that they can just do it or the fact that it looks easier doesn't mean they don't care or they're not trying or they're not putting in extra work, too. It just means they're better...

 

[Elbowing]

You must be a millennial, as you clearly don't understand the (really very simple) difference between being amused and "offended". If you can't tell the difference … well, I guess I'm not surprised, and you'd deserve every last drop of coaching mediocrity your savior is going to continue to bestow upon Storrs for the foreseeable future. Enjoy!!

Ha, nope! Just calling out a fraud. Well aware of the difference. Keep dancing. UConn is in good hands. UNH is as well, Coach Cav’s hand selected choice.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Dan, it's kind of like watching Jack Eichel. When we would play BU that year (the only year they had him of course) I'd watch him warm up. Made it look easy. When pro golfers swing it looks effortless, but, they have that torque and power that most golfers would end up in the hospital if they tried to emulate it! I hear exactly what you are saying. It's no secret the incredible skill Max has; makes it look easy. I'll take a look at the opposing team warm ups when Miami's in town, and will watch for Grant.

We fans just want to whine about our players when they make mistakes, glorify them when they succeed. It's the lot of a fan I think. One player isn't going to save any team. They all make up the whole. Better enjoy those stellar players while they're hear...as they are often gone with the blink of an eye...

 

[chickod]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

When pro golfers swing it looks effortless, but, they have that torque and power that most golfers would end up in the hospital if they tried to emulate

That is a GREAT analogy. But that's what I meant by "in their DNA." Most people CAN'T emulate it. This entire discussion really is just another way of saying that each person is "predisposed" to being able to accomplish certain things. Those who pursue the area in which their aptitude lies will be more successful. It doesn't mean that one who isn't predisposed in that area "can't" succeed, but (as Dan points out) they will have to work 100 times harder to do so. And in an area such as professional sports, that's not good enough, because only "one in a million" make it anyway.

(HR...I have been playing golf for 52 years and I STILL can't swing without jumping at the ball. When I try to swing "smoothly" I just decelerate. It's frustrating, because I KNOW what I'm doing wrong but I still can't fix it.)

 

[Ray Dorn]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Dan...your post this morning was very good. You definitively go toward the front of the line for hockey knowledge on this thread!!!

First of all, Gildon did not make a mistake (blunder) on "the play" from Saturday night. The puck "skipped" over his stick. What caused the puck to bounce over his stick we will never know. I can think of three possible reasons this could have happened: 1. bad ice, puck hit a rut in front of him, 2. the UNH player that passed him the puck did not put enough "spin" on the puck or 3. the pass was slightly deflected that caused it to react awkwardly.

In regard to work ethic, hard work and hustle. Dan explained this pretty well. This is how I would explain it. For example, some hockey players can skate 100 feet in 8 strides faster than other players can skate the same distance in 12 strides. The former players (Bobby Orr, Scott Niedermeyer, Paul Coffey, JvR) are referred to as "efficient", "smooth", "effortless". The later group of players (Terry O'Reilly, Phil Esposito, Brad Marsh) are described with negative adjectives.

I would rather have Bobby Orr in his prime playing defense than Brad Marsh. I would rather have JvR playing forward than Terry O'Reilly. I would rather have Fred Lynn playing the outfield than Jim Gosger. I would rather have Gildon playing defense at UNH than some guy with short, choppy strides that looks like he is hustling, but isn't really moving very fast!!!

What looks like careless stickhandling and lazy skating to an uneducated eye looks like stickhandling with "composure" and "poise" and "smooth" skating to a NHL scout!!!

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

That is a GREAT analogy. But that's what I meant by "in their DNA." Most people CAN'T emulate it. This entire discussion really is just another way of saying that each person is "predisposed" to being able to accomplish certain things. Those who pursue the area in which their aptitude lies will be more successful. It doesn't mean that one who isn't predisposed in that area "can't" succeed, but (as Dan points out) they will have to work 100 times harder to do so. And in an area such as professional sports, that's not good enough, because only "one in a million" make it anyway.

(HR...I have been playing golf for 52 years and I STILL can't swing without jumping at the ball. When I try to swing "smoothly" I just decelerate. It's frustrating, because I KNOW what I'm doing wrong but I still can't fix it.)

If my dad were around he'd be able to fix that issue for ya! We all have something we are naturally good at, other things, we work at OR we do them in such an unorthodox way that it looks out of place BUT...can be effective! Like Rick Barry and his 'diaper throw' free throws. People laughed, so what, went in the basket!

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Hate to jump in on this Ray, but your latest post hit on a couple of points I'd like to touch on. First ...

This is how I would explain it. For example, some hockey players can skate 100 feet in 8 strides faster than other players can skate the same distance in 12 strides. The former players (Bobby Orr, Scott Niedermeyer, Paul Coffey, JvR) are referred to as "efficient", "smooth", "effortless". The later group of players (Terry O'Reilly, Phil Esposito, Brad Marsh) are described with negative adjectives.

Actually, Espo was a pretty darned good skater. He definitely wasn't one of those choppy-stride guys. His problem - and that of many of his teammates, and likewise their opponents - was that they weren't Bobby Orr. But Espo was better-than-average at getting up and down the ice. It's just not something he was noted for. But this is a minor quibble compared to this doozie …

I would rather have Bobby Orr in his prime playing defense than Brad Marsh. I would rather have JvR playing forward than Terry O'Reilly . I would rather have Fred Lynn playing the outfield than Jim Gosger. I would rather have Gildon playing defense at UNH than some guy with short, choppy strides that looks like he is hustling, but isn't really moving very fast!!!

You went too far with the JvR comparison to O'Reilly, sorry. Let's not forget that O'Reilly was a first round pick in his time too, so it's not like the guy was dogfood talent-wise. I think anyone would concede that these were two entirely different players, no doubt, so I'm not disputing you there. But JvR "rather than" another guy who scored 200 goals but also added 400 assists, AND has better postseason stats, too? A guy who was a consistent plus guy in the plus/minus, as opposed to someone who's basically been a break-even guy (technically still in the red though)? A guy who oozed leadership and physicality, as opposed to a guy who was deemed "odd man out" by his last employer (after a quintessential "contract year"), who claimed they didn't have the money to re-sign him, but otherwise decided to re-sign all their younger (better) talent, and then ended up replacing him by breaking the bank on John freakin' Tavares??



Listen … I'm not a B's fan, and my time as a B's fan ended the day Bobby Orr left town. O'Reilly only had a few years with Orr, and really ended up being the leader of some very good B's teams that resided near the top of the NHL for most of the rest of his career - without guys like Orr and Espo, and instead with good-but-over-the-hill guys like Brad Park and Jean Ratelle. He even made it to a couple of All-Star games, which is more than JvR has ever played in (0 at last count). When your team came up against O'Reilly, he would get your attention. It was hardly "smooth" but the guy was a warrior, and a flat-out winner.

So I don't have a per se dog in this fight, but I can guarantee you O'Reilly was a better player than JvR is … unless JvR has an amazing Part Two of his career that at least the likes of Mike Babcock and Brendan Shanahan (both Stanley Cup winners, so they presumably know) don't. see coming.

Now, let me stress - this is NOT a knock on JvR. JvR has proven himself to be an above-average NHL forward, and is making a lot of money, and I'm sure most of us UNH fans would love to turn the clock back a few years for a rerun of JvR's short career in Durham, because it pees all over what we're subjected to now. I get it. But he's in this discussion on the "side" of the elite talent argument with Bobby Orr and Fred Lynn - the former who is one of three guys with a credible claim on being the best player of all time in his sport, while the latter was an MVP and perennial All-Star and Gold Glove player.

And JvR's simply not the impact player that "grinder" Terry O'Reilly consistently was. JMHO.

 

[Ray Dorn]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Chuck,

Thanks for your response. I was just referring to skating ability with my hockey references. Phil Esposito and Terry O'Reilly were not very good skaters. Esposito was a great goal scorer and overall good offensive player in his day. Terry O'Reilly brought toughness and other intangibles to the Bruins. I could have used Jason Allison as an example of a poor skater who played in the NHL, but I figured most people would not remember him.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Chuck,

Thanks for your response. I was just referring to skating ability with my hockey references. Phil Esposito and Terry O'Reilly were not very good skaters. Esposito was a great goal scorer and overall good offensive player in his day. Terry O'Reilly brought toughness and other intangibles to the Bruins. I could have used Jason Allison as an example of a poor skater who played in the NHL, but I figured most people would not remember him.

Appreciate the clarification, Ray. I do still think you're underrating Esposito as a skater. Definitely not a choppy strides guy, he seemed to have the long strides and economy of movement. I think the fact that he made his living in the slot and closer clouds the perceptions somewhat - plus falling on his butt in the intros at the '72 Summit Series - but check out this vintage video clip of Espo in his prime getting up the ice against the Flyers on a power play. Not a typical Espo goal, but he got up ice pretty darned well ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTMiJku9EuY

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTMiJku9EuY

Nowadays the 40X40 pads snuff out that re-direct, and Esposito is denied.

 

[Dan]

I can definitely see why you're nostalgic for that slow lumbering trip up ice when we're constantly forced to watch this kind of crap in today's game...

https://youtu.be/wBRCH5jpw90

Or this...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qSsNtjiIIjs

Across the board skill and skating are far better today. Things, including both humans and sports, evolve. None of that discredits hockey in the 70's or those players accomplishments. It's just a fact of life...

JVR may not be as relatively talented, as impactful or as well-rounded as TOR or Esposito. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing, because I don't care.

From a pure hockey skill stand point he blows them away. If for no other reason than that he exists 30 years later...

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

That first clip shows another guy I don't want on my team because he isn't a gung ho, all out effort, player. That Kessel guy will never win, because he lacks the hunger. Thankfully the Bruins got rid of him (and other floaters like Thornton, Seguin, and Hamilton - and skipped drafting Parise) in favor of true grit guys that will go to the wall for you. Guys like Stuart, etc. Those guys, who pay the price, are the path to championships, not floating talent guys.

 

[e.cat]

Hate to jump in on this Ray, but your latest post hit on a couple of points I'd like to touch on. First ...



Actually, Espo was a pretty darned good skater. He definitely wasn't one of those choppy-stride guys. His problem - and that of many of his teammates, and likewise their opponents - was that they weren't Bobby Orr. But Espo was better-than-average at getting up and down the ice. It's just not something he was noted for. But this is a minor quibble compared to this doozie …



You went too far with the JvR comparison to O'Reilly, sorry. Let's not forget that O'Reilly was a first round pick in his time too, so it's not like the guy was dogfood talent-wise. I think anyone would concede that these were two entirely different players, no doubt, so I'm not disputing you there. But JvR "rather than" another guy who scored 200 goals but also added 400 assists, AND has better postseason stats, too? A guy who was a consistent plus guy in the plus/minus, as opposed to someone who's basically been a break-even guy (technically still in the red though)? A guy who oozed leadership and physicality, as opposed to a guy who was deemed "odd man out" by his last employer (after a quintessential "contract year"), who claimed they didn't have the money to re-sign him, but otherwise decided to re-sign all their younger (better) talent, and then ended up replacing him by breaking the bank on John freakin' Tavares??



Listen … I'm not a B's fan, and my time as a B's fan ended the day Bobby Orr left town. O'Reilly only had a few years with Orr, and really ended up being the leader of some very good B's teams that resided near the top of the NHL for most of the rest of his career - without guys like Orr and Espo, and instead with good-but-over-the-hill guys like Brad Park and Jean Ratelle. He even made it to a couple of All-Star games, which is more than JvR has ever played in (0 at last count). When your team came up against O'Reilly, he would get your attention. It was hardly "smooth" but the guy was a warrior, and a flat-out winner.

So I don't have a per se dog in this fight, but I can guarantee you O'Reilly was a better player than JvR is … unless JvR has an amazing Part Two of his career that at least the likes of Mike Babcock and Brendan Shanahan (both Stanley Cup winners, so they presumably know) don't. see coming.

Now, let me stress - this is NOT a knock on JvR. JvR has proven himself to be an above-average NHL forward, and is making a lot of money, and I'm sure most of us UNH fans would love to turn the clock back a few years for a rerun of JvR's short career in Durham, because it pees all over what we're subjected to now. I get it. But he's in this discussion on the "side" of the elite talent argument with Bobby Orr and Fred Lynn - the former who is one of three guys with a credible claim on being the best player of all time in his sport, while the latter was an MVP and perennial All-Star and Gold Glove player.

And JvR's simply not the impact player that "grinder" Terry O'Reilly consistently was. JMHO.

Apples and oranges! No way I would take O'Reilly over JVR in today's game. Loved O'Reilly back in the day but his style wouldn't work in the finesse game today.

 

[Dan]

Apples and oranges! No way I would take O'Reilly over JVR in today's game. Loved O'Reilly back in the day but his style wouldn't work in the finesse game today.

Time travel JVR back to TORs time and play him in 900 career games - he surpasses 400 goals, at least. As it is if he hits 900 games as a pro (and only health should stop him) he'll pot 300 or so. It's convenient to compare them as if now is who they'll always be, both around 200 goals - especially without recognizing the difference in games played and a much higher scoring sport at that time...

 

[Snively65]

Appreciate the clarification, Ray. I do still think you're underrating Esposito as a skater. Definitely not a choppy strides guy, he seemed to have the long strides and economy of movement. I think the fact that he made his living in the slot and closer clouds the perceptions somewhat - plus falling on his butt in the intros at the '72 Summit Series - but check out this vintage video clip of Espo in his prime getting up the ice against the Flyers on a power play. Not a typical Espo goal, but he got up ice pretty darned well ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTMiJku9EuY

Local bumper sticker from early 1970's:
Jesus Saves!
Espo Scores on Rebound!!

 

[e.cat]

Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

Sure would be nice to pick up some points this weekend. Not holding my breath though!