UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

[BBDiehard14]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Tim was no longer the guy. Lost the room multiple times. Couldn't coach defense, couldn't get a team to play disciplined and hold a lead. Recruited talent and then under achieved with it. No NCAA games for Nyquist? Fireable offense if ever there was one.

Doesn't mean Red's not worse.

You have to remember that we had a talented goaltender by the name of Scott Darling who unfortunately got himself into some trouble. Had he stayed the course and been around in the 2011-12 season (and if Abbott is healthy in the playoffs), that would've easily been a Frozen Four team and maybe Tim saves his job. Tim was no Walsh but he was a pretty good X's and O's coach. People just don't understand how hard it is to be "that guy" who replaces a legend (good luck to whomever replaces Coach Hoodie when he leaves Fort Foxboro).

Maine has always been a goaltender school and we haven't had a game-stealing stud since Big Ben. Hopefully Swayman grows into that guy, especially if any of you guys are Bruins fans!

 

[Runsub5]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

You have to remember that we had a talented goaltender by the name of Scott Darling who unfortunately got himself into some trouble. Had he stayed the course and been around in the 2011-12 season (and if Abbott is healthy in the playoffs), that would've easily been a Frozen Four team and maybe Tim saves his job. Tim was no Walsh but he was a pretty good X's and O's coach..........

Absolutely agree.

 

[BoSox3066]

You have to remember that we had a talented goaltender by the name of Scott Darling who unfortunately got himself into some trouble. Had he stayed the course and been around in the 2011-12 season (and if Abbott is healthy in the playoffs), that would've easily been a Frozen Four team and maybe Tim saves his job. Tim was no Walsh but he was a pretty good X's and O's coach. People just don't understand how hard it is to be "that guy" who replaces a legend (good luck to whomever replaces Coach Hoodie when he leaves Fort Foxboro).

Maine has always been a goaltender school and we haven't had a game-stealing stud since Big Ben. Hopefully Swayman grows into that guy, especially if any of you guys are Bruins fans!

Did you watch his teams in the third period of games after Grant and Campbell Blair left? Awful puck management, guys playing tight as drums. I generally like Whitehead but thats not a good xo os coach.

 

[J.D.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I don't think there is much doubt the league has declined a lot over the last 10 years. Mass used to produce a lot of kids and just doesn't anymore. I've seen Jeff Cox post on twitter that it just costs way too much around here and it discourages a lot of kids. I don't know that from personal experience but it would make a lot of sense. I wonder if the USHL being in NCHC/Big 10 territory gives them a big advantage as well.

Don't you think BC has declined quite a bit over the last six or seven years? How many guys from this year's team get in say the 2010 team? I can't imagine it would be more than four or five.

At some point that era of BC dominance was going to come to an end. That alone doesn't necessarily mean the league is worse. You can debate talent in Hockey East to what it used to be but your view might be skewed in that Maine hasn't been good in a long time now. It's a different era than the Big 4 era but you have pretty darn good programs at Lowell and Providence now.

The real question is how does the league stack up against other leagues right now. Clear edge to NCHC but maybe the biggest change has been the leap that the ECAC has taken over the past 5 years or so. That has taken a chunk out of Hockey East's success. The Big Ten hasn't really taken off yet but I would expect it too. Minnesota, Penn State and Ohio State made tourney last year, addition of Notre Dame, new coaches at Wisconsin, Michigan and Michigan State.

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Red is worse. Demonstrably.

Have you lost your mind?

Red has recruited guys who'd barely be 3rd- or 4th-liners, even on Tim's worst teams.

Yup

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

At some point that era of BC dominance was going to come to an end. That alone doesn't necessarily mean the league is worse. You can debate talent in Hockey East to what it used to be but your view might be skewed in that Maine hasn't been good in a long time now. It's a different era than the Big 4 era but you have pretty darn good programs at Lowell and Providence now.

The real question is how does the league stack up against other leagues right now. Clear edge to NCHC but maybe the biggest change has been the leap that the ECAC has taken over the past 5 years or so. That has taken a chunk out of Hockey East's success. The Big Ten hasn't really taken off yet but I would expect it too. Minnesota, Penn State and Ohio State made tourney last year, addition of Notre Dame, new coaches at Wisconsin, Michigan and Michigan State.

Correct on the ECAC, they used to be labeled the EZAC, but no more...they are a strong Conference. Hockey East will be ok, down year...maybe, but don't count on it at the end of the season.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Have you lost your mind?




Yup

Not sure if you had a point there, but Tim's recruiting -which clearly became much worse than Shawn's- was still far better than Red's has been. No doubt about that.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Not sure if you had a point there, but Tim's recruiting -which clearly became much worse than Shawn's- was still far better than Red's has been. No doubt about that.

I'll take Amestoy, Anderson, and Leidermark over Pearson, Fossier, and Vesey any day

 

[NorthMike]

In any event, neither coach is what I would consider to be at least a mid level d1 coach. Neither controlled/s the situation.

A top tier coach could take a group of mid level recruits and get some positive things going for the program, of course if lock step with the office. It will be interesting to see how this season plays out.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I'll take Amestoy, Anderson, and Leidermark over Pearson, Fossier, and Vesey any day

Good luck with any of them, Drew. Vesey might pan-out down the road, but it'll be hard to evaluate a guy who has nothing around him.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Not sure if you had a point there, but Tim's recruiting -which clearly became much worse than Shawn's- was still far better than Red's has been. No doubt about that.

One had Grant and Maines Reputation to recruit with, the other had a dumpster fire, but yeah, Tim had better recruits

 

[Drew S.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

One had Grant and Maines Reputation to recruit with, the other had a dumpster fire, but yeah, Tim had better recruits

I think a lot of people remember Tim's few good recruits and forget all the bad ones. There is no doubt Tim recruited some great forwards, but he struggled finding guys for the third and fourth lines and also with dmen and goalies. And you're absolutely correct that he had a lot more to work with. A lot of folks here are selling Maine's freshmen and sophomore classes short along with guys who are lined up for the future.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

At some point that era of BC dominance was going to come to an end. That alone doesn't necessarily mean the league is worse. You can debate talent in Hockey East to what it used to be but your view might be skewed in that Maine hasn't been good in a long time now. It's a different era than the Big 4 era but you have pretty darn good programs at Lowell and Providence now.

The real question is how does the league stack up against other leagues right now. Clear edge to NCHC but maybe the biggest change has been the leap that the ECAC has taken over the past 5 years or so. That has taken a chunk out of Hockey East's success. The Big Ten hasn't really taken off yet but I would expect it too. Minnesota, Penn State and Ohio State made tourney last year, addition of Notre Dame, new coaches at Wisconsin, Michigan and Michigan State.

I think you're overrating UML and Providence. They're both solid, but haven't they each only made one frozen four since they've been good? I'm not sure how bright the future is for them either. I rate Bazin very highly as a coach but its going to be tough for him to get the talent there year in and year out to be a top team. If you go back it seems he hasn't really recruited any better than McDonald.

I'm not really sure what to make of Leaman. He inherited a ton of talent and had a couple great teams around when they won the national title. The year they won didn't they get in as a four seed? With the talent they had that year shouldn't have been lower than a two seed. Since they won the title I haven't been super impressed with them. The fact they blew a 3-0 lead at home against a fairly average BC team last weekend isn't a great omen for them this year.

For me the big 10's problem is that its all good programs. If they had three or four bad teams it would help the teams at the top a lot. They all bring in a lot of talent and at some point you would think they get their act together. It's scary to think that hockey east might not be much better than the ECAC, but its probably true.

Hopefully in the next five years Maine and UNH get their act together. I think Maine is in the process of doing so, it just takes awhile. I've posted this a lot of times, but its important to remember it took Tim six years to run Maine into the ground. To expect Maine to be back where they used to be in any less time is foolish. I don't want to see UNH have too much success, but I hope their new coach is able to get them back to the top four in Hockey East. These two things would undoubtedly be great for the league.

I don't think BC will bottom out as much as Maine and UNH did. It will be interesting what they do as far as a new regime when York finally retires. I wouldn't be shocked if they go through maybe a five year stretch where they bounce around between say fourth and seventh. If they hire a competent coach there is no reason they won't be good again once he gets his own guys in.

 

[J.D.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

The only way BC goes five years finishing 4th-7th is if they make a bad hire in who replaces York. Sure it's possible but extremely unlikely to see them have a stretch like that. Much easier to recruit to BC than Maine, UNH etc.

And if they have a 4 year stretch like that i doubt that coach would get a 5th year.

 

[ticapnews]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

The only way BC goes five years finishing 4th-7th is if they make a bad hire in who replaces York. Sure it's possible but extremely unlikely to see them have a stretch like that. Much easier to recruit to BC than Maine, UNH etc.

And if they have a 4 year stretch like that i doubt that coach would get a 5th year.

Or even a third year

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I think you're overrating UML and Providence. They're both solid, but haven't they each only made one frozen four since they've been good? I'm not sure how bright the future is for them either. I rate Bazin very highly as a coach but its going to be tough for him to get the talent there year in and year out to be a top team. If you go back it seems he hasn't really recruited any better than McDonald.

I'm not really sure what to make of Leaman. He inherited a ton of talent and had a couple great teams around when they won the national title. The year they won didn't they get in as a four seed? With the talent they had that year shouldn't have been lower than a two seed. Since they won the title I haven't been super impressed with them. The fact they blew a 3-0 lead at home against a fairly average BC team last weekend isn't a great omen for them this year.

For me the big 10's problem is that its all good programs. If they had three or four bad teams it would help the teams at the top a lot. They all bring in a lot of talent and at some point you would think they get their act together. It's scary to think that hockey east might not be much better than the ECAC, but its probably true.

Hopefully in the next five years Maine and UNH get their act together. I think Maine is in the process of doing so, it just takes awhile. I've posted this a lot of times, but its important to remember it took Tim six years to run Maine into the ground. To expect Maine to be back where they used to be in any less time is foolish. I don't want to see UNH have too much success, but I hope their new coach is able to get them back to the top four in Hockey East. These two things would undoubtedly be great for the league.

I don't think BC will bottom out as much as Maine and UNH did. It will be interesting what they do as far as a new regime when York finally retires. I wouldn't be shocked if they go through maybe a five year stretch where they bounce around between say fourth and seventh. If they hire a competent coach there is no reason they won't be good again once he gets his own guys in.

Lets see...Providence under Leaman, 1 Nat. Championship, and his record is @ 130-78-28 and on to UML under Bazin, 1 appearance in the Frozen 4 and his record is @ 152-71-21....and now for Maine's Gendron...just go to his record: 50-83-17. Your right I think they are over-rated a bit

 

[J.D.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Exactly. Nothing overrated about those programs. Both were absolute dumpster fires when they took over.

As an outsider, Maine doesn't need a Red Gendron. Maine needs a young coach.

 

[NorthMike]

Exactly.

As an outsider, Maine doesn't need a Red Gendron. Maine needs a young coach.

100%. One with big time presence, energy.

 

[cavbim]

Lets see...Providence under Leaman, 1 Nat. Championship, and his record is @ 130-78-28 and on to UML under Bazin, 1 appearance in the Frozen 4 and his record is @ 152-71-21....and now for Maine's Gendron...just go to his record: 50-83-17. Your right I think they are over-rated a bit

Using York as the gold standard in the same period he is 154-68-22, got the jump in the other 2 in the first year by going 33-10-1 and was already established in his job

Regarding recruiting at UML someone on some other thread made an excellent point. It’s a myth that Bazin gets underrated players, he indeed recruits top players he just fishes ponds many others bypass. Also the last kid they got, Meehan, shows the inroads they have made locally (also this is similar to NU—another team that now appears to have put Maine in their rear view mirror)

On PC. Inherited a talented team? Well that finally explains some things like why they had to play 2 defensemen at forward that first year, why they would push out one of their distinguished alumni as coach so he could not enjoy the coming success, and what a talented team those 2 last place and that next to last team the previous 3 years really were.

As far as post championship success. First year #1 seed and share of regular season Hockey East title, second year 20+ wins with 8 freshmen as regulars just 2 points out of another share of title plus NCAA bid

Would also think last teams fan to question Leaman’s success would be Maine as they have beaten Leaman’s team twice in his time at PC. The first 2 games they played (Leaman’s 4th and 5th games at PC I believe) since then Maine is winless in 14 straight (13-0-1)

I agree it will take a young hard driving young assistant to drive this program forward. Possibly convincing coaches with Hockey East connections (Barr 46 10 years assistant, Ellsworth 47 7 years college assistant 2 at USHL, Mayotte 44 6 year assistant). Trouble is now a days no head coach experience is looked as a draw back. Last spring The better openings went to experienced head coaches pulled away from other programs. Both Barr and Ellsworth didn’t get the job at their Alma mater.

Which leads to the point if you aren’t going to invest in your program you aren’t going to succeed like you possibly could years ago. College Hockey has changed drastically since Walsh passed away this is big time college sports now—both UML and PC invested in their programs. If The hot assistant starts to turn the program around unless you keep upping the pay he will quickly depart

In fact what do you think the chance that if Walsh lived he’d still be in Maine assuming all other things like economy and administrators, both college president and AD were what Whitehead/Gendron have had to face. Could Maine hold on to him if he sensed things out of his control were trending down if the NHL came calling or say, I Believe it was 2010-11, when Mich State hired their previous coach, had come calling for Walsh instead.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I think a lot of people remember Tim's few good recruits and forget all the bad ones. There is no doubt Tim recruited some great forwards, but he struggled finding guys for the third and fourth lines and also with dmen and goalies. And you're absolutely correct that he had a lot more to work with. A lot of folks here are selling Maine's freshmen and sophomore classes short along with guys who are lined up for the future.

It's very hard to divine your logic re: defending Red's utter lack of recruiting...

Sure, we old-timers were outraged by several of Tim's classes, but Tim usually had a gem or two in the dung-pile, and Red hasn't brought in a single "great forward" or anything like that in four looooong years. Not even one.

Red is the dumpster-fire here. Maine hockey is as bad, or worse, as it was under the last years of Semlar right now. No reasonable argument to the contrary can be made.