thoughts from a friend..

[mookie1995]

After reading the headlines this week about the US soldier who shot up Afghanistan civilians, I couldn’t help noticing an irony. There is all the clamor to try this guy quickly and execute him, never mind his having suffered a traumatic brain injury.

Yet that Major Hasan, who shot up Fort Hood while screaming Allah akbar, still hasn’t stood trial, and they are still debating whether he was insane, even with the clear evidence regarding his motive: slay as many infidels as possible.

So we have a guy in a war zone who cracks, and he must be executed immediately. But this Muslim psychiatrist who was stateside in a nice safe office all day murders 13, wounds 29 of our own guys, and they try to argue the poor lad suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome, from listening to real soldiers who had actual battle experience. Two and a half years later, they still haven’t tried the murderous bastard.

 

[joecct]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Good one!

 

[TimP]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

So what?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Actually, the UCMJ will provide protections for both Sgt. Bales and "Dr." Hasan. And while I'm very sympathetic to your comparison of the cases, you should know that military justice rarely winds up with a death penalty. And in the unlikely event Sgt. Bales is sentenced to death, it would be a very long time before he's executed.

Sgt. Bales' lawyer has been doing what civilian lawyers always do: trying the case in the media. He's been offering all sorts of mitigating "evidence" which may have some bearing on sentencing. But the folks who will sit on his court martial are not going to be influenced as to guilt or innocence, by what some civilian flannel mouth lawyer says, trust me.

Here's where we agree: as despicalble as what Sgt. Bales is accused of doing, what "Dr." Hasan did is far worse. This was (is) a field grade officer in the United States Army, a doctor (a psychiatrist, for cripe's sake) who listened to the jihadist b*ll sh*t from Anwar Al Awlaki and decided he needed to murder some GI's. Hasan owes everything he is to the army of the Great Satan. They sent him to college. Then sent him to medical school. His status, profession, income, all of it, he owes to the Army. And his betrayal is unforgivable. There is no comparison between hearing stories about people getting wounded (this is a psychiatrist, remember?) and seeing actual people, some of whom are your friends, horrifically wounded or killed. "Dr." Hasan murdered his fellow Americans, Sgt. Bales did not.

That said, if Bales actually shot children as they slept, I cannot find it in my heart to forgive him. Being drunk is no excuse. PTSD is no excuse. Being sent back for another tour despite being told earlier he wouldn't deploy again, is not an excuse. Seeing buddies killed or wounded is not an excuse. This is the army, in the field, in combat. And these factors are present for thousands of other GI's too, and none of them have committed mass murder.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Actually, the UCMJ will provide protections for both Sgt. Bales and "Dr." Hasan. And while I'm very sympathetic to your comparison of the cases, you should know that military justice rarely winds up with a death penalty. And in the unlikely event Sgt. Bales is sentenced to death, it would be a very long time before he's executed.

Sgt. Bales' lawyer has been doing what civilian lawyers always do: trying the case in the media. He's been offering all sorts of mitigating "evidence" which may have some bearing on sentencing. But the folks who will sit on his court martial are not going to be influenced as to guilt or innocence, by what some civilian flannel mouth lawyer says, trust me.

Here's where we agree: as despicalble as what Sgt. Bales is accused of doing, what "Dr." Hasan did is far worse. This was (is) a field grade officer in the United States Army, a doctor (a psychiatrist, for cripe's sake) who listened to the jihadist b*ll sh*t from Anwar Al Awlaki and decided he needed to murder some GI's. Hasan owes everything he is to the army of the Great Satan. They sent him to college. Then sent him to medical school. His status, profession, income, all of it, he owes to the Army. And his betrayal is unforgivable. There is no comparison between hearing stories about people getting wounded (this is a psychiatrist, remember?) and seeing actual people, some of whom are your friends, horrifically wounded or killed. "Dr." Hasan murdered his fellow Americans, Sgt. Bales did not.

That said, if Bales actually shot children as they slept, I cannot find it in my heart to forgive him. Being drunk is no excuse. PTSD is no excuse. Being sent back for another tour despite being told earlier he wouldn't deploy again, is not an excuse. Seeing buddies killed or wounded is not an excuse. This is the army, in the field. And these factors are present for thousands of other GI's too, and none of them have committed mass murder.

I believe that I am understanding your point and I agree that the circumstances that led these two to commit murder were different. But you're not saying that is worse to murder fellow Americans than Afghans, are you? All other things being equal?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

I believe that I am understanding your point and I agree that the circumstances that led these two to commit murder were different. But you're not saying that is worse to murder fellow Americans than Afghans, are you? All other things being equal?

You bet your a*s that's what I'm saying!

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

You bet your a*s that's what I'm saying!

Bigger betrayal? Sure.

Worse to kill and American than an Afghan? Murder is murder.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Bigger betrayal? Sure.

Worse to kill and American than an Afghan? Murder is murder.

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your PC crapola, will ya?

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Blah, blah, blah. Spare me your PC crapola, will ya?

How is that in any way PC?

I don't think that your synapses are firing correctly.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

How is that in any way PC?

I don't think that your synapses are firing correctly.

Troll someone else, will ya? You apparantly value the lives of foreigners the same as Americans, I don't. I'll explain it again for the slow students. "Dr." Hasan is a professional, a doctor, a psyciatrist, an officer who has no experience in combat. Sgt. Bales is just a grunt (in the best sense of that word) who has served several tours in combat. "Dr." Hasan was having lunch at the air conditioned "O" club, doubtless enjoying the pork roast, while Sgt. Bales was eating MREs, in 115 degree heat, with sand fleas., "Dr." Hasan violated at least two oaths when he murdered American GI's. I find that offensive. More so that what Bales evidently did. You disagree and will probably include your dismay in your Sunday sermon.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Troll someone else, will ya? You apparantly value the lives of foreigners the same as Americans, I don't. I'll explain it again for the slow students. "Dr." Hasan is a professinal, a doctor, a psyciatrist, an officer. Sgt. Bales is just a grunt (in the best sense of that word). "Dr." Hasan violated at least two oaths when he murdered American GI's. I find that offensive. More so that what Bales evidently did. You disagree and will probably include your dismay in your Sunday sermon.

Imagine the scene...

Children and mothers begging for their lives. Children not understanding why this is happening. Mothers watching their kids murdered in front of their eyes.

Are you serious or just a seriously flawed human?


If it comes down to soldier versus soldier, I want us to win. Decisively. If we could win 15,000 - 0, I'd be happy as a clam.

US Soldier murdering (not talking an accident here) civilians = US Soldier murdering anyone else including other soldiers.

You really think this is trolling?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Troll someone else, will ya? You apparantly value the lives of foreigners the same as Americans, I don't.

What?

That said, if Bales actually shot children as they slept, I cannot find it in my heart to forgive him. Being drunk is no excuse. PTSD is no excuse. Being sent back for another tour despite being told earlier he wouldn't deploy again, is not an excuse. Seeing buddies killed or wounded is not an excuse. This is the army, in the field, in combat. And these factors are present for thousands of other GI's too, and none of them have committed mass murder.

They both deserve whatever the book allows to be tossed their way, although to be clear in general I agree with your 1a > 1b assessment if I had to pick. Either case makes me figuratively weep in the end.

 

[Dude Love]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Troll someone else, will ya?

Pot...this is kettle.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

What?



They both deserve whatever the book allows to be tossed their way, although to be clear in general I agree with your 1a > 1b assessment if I had to pick. Either case makes me figuratively weep in the end.

Let me give you an example. In the closing days of the war in the Pacific we conducted massive B-29 raids over Tokyo, which killed tens of thousands of civilians. Because of Japanese intransigence following the Pottsdam Declaration, we dropped two nuclear weapons, on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which also killed tens of thousands. But the lives of countless thousands of our fathers and grandfathers were spared as a result, because the Japanese threw in the towel and we didn't have to invade Honshu. And if the Japanese had refused to surrender after the first two nukes, I would have waited 'till we built some more and kept right on dropping them. In that circumstance, I value the lives of our GI's higher than the lives of the Japanese civilians. And the fact that Fat Man and Little Boy also probably saved countless Japanese lives that would have been lost attempting to repel an invasion is what they call lagniappe in Louisiana.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

It comes down to state of mind. Hasan knew exactly what he was doing, that is as obvious as a WCHA ref knowing what a goal is, oh wait, bad example. Anyway, he knew what he was doing.

Bales I am not convinced he knew what he was doing with the PTSD issue. PTSD shuts off filters in your head and you can do things that your head would normally filter out as a bad idea. He could be simply using PTSD as an excuse, as Hasan is with his sanity, but the medical folks have to determine the truth, which with mental issues can be different shades of grey.

Old Pio......Value of human life.....I fully support in wartime to kill as many enemy as possible to spare American lives, but that is the only instance where one could support that. What Bales and Hasan did was not under this pretense, it was flat out murder. Life is life, I cannot fathom how someone can sit here and sanely (I'm giving you an out here) say an American life is worth more than a Japanese or Afgan life, or a Catholic life worth more than a Protestant. That thought is the very genesis of every instance of genocide the world has ever endured.

 

[theprofromdover]

How is that in any way PC?

I don't think that your synapses are firing correctly.

You're assuming that they ever fired correctly.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

It comes down to state of mind. Hasan knew exactly what he was doing, that is as obvious as a WCHA ref knowing what a goal is, oh wait, bad example. Anyway, he knew what he was doing.

Bales I am not convinced he knew what he was doing with the PTSD issue. PTSD shuts off filters in your head and you can do things that your head would normally filter out as a bad idea. He could be simply using PTSD as an excuse, as Hasan is with his sanity, but the medical folks have to determine the truth, which with mental issues can be different shades of grey.

Old Pio......Value of human life.....I fully support in wartime to kill as many enemy as possible to spare American lives, but that is the only instance where one could support that. What Bales and Hasan did was not under this pretense, it was flat out murder. Life is life, I cannot fathom how someone can sit here and sanely (I'm giving you an out here) say an American life is worth more than a Japanese or Afgan life, or a Catholic life worth more than a Protestant. That thought is the very genesis of every instance of genocide the world has ever endured.

You seem to be under the imppression that I think either one of these two should be able to skate on the charges. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, if it was Bales who murdered a bunch of GI's and "Dr." Hasan went ape and murdered Afgan citizens, I'd say Bales committed the greater crime. In a four graph post you and the rest the critics are taking nine words out of context to raise a fuss. While studiously ignoring the full argument for "Dr." Hasan's greater culpability. Knock yourselves out.

You aren't going to bill me for that diagnosis, are you "Dr." And while you were going down your PC checklist, you forgot white life over black life, straight life over gay live, male life over female life, etc. How clever, in one breath you reluctantly concede I may be sane. But in the next, inferentially suggest I think like Pol Pot. In its simplest terms, my argument is that context matters in judging the value of a human life. And you seem to agree. But you also apparantly don't want to pass up an opportunity to do a little preening.

 

[joecct]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Imagine the scene...

Children and mothers begging for their lives. Children not understanding why this is happening. Mothers watching their kids murdered in front of their eyes.

Are you serious or just a seriously flawed human?


If it comes down to soldier versus soldier, I want us to win. Decisively. If we could win 15,000 - 0, I'd be happy as a clam.

US Soldier murdering (not talking an accident here) civilians = US Soldier murdering anyone else including other soldiers.

You really think this is trolling?

What would the bombing campaigns of WWII be classified as?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

Let me give you an example. In the closing days of the war in the Pacific we conducted massive B-29 raids over Tokyo, which killed tens of thousands of civilians. Because of Japanese intransigence following the Pottsdam Declaration, we dropped two nuclear weapons, on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which also killed tens of thousands. But the lives of countless thousands of our fathers and grandfathers were spared as a result, because the Japanese threw in the towel and we didn't have to invade Honshu. And if the Japanese had refused to surrender after the first two nukes, I would have waited 'till we built some more and kept right on dropping them. In that circumstance, I value the lives of our GI's higher than the lives of the Japanese civilians. And the fact that Fat Man and Little Boy also probably saved countless Japanese lives that would have been lost attempting to repel an invasion is what they call lagniappe in Louisiana.

No problem with the usage of the big bombs, but your example doesn't support your stance on this one imho and I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: thoughts from a friend..

What would the bombing campaigns of WWII be classified as?

So you're comparing bomber crews following orders to a soldier leaving his base and gunning down families in their homes?

Is that your argument?