The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

[JDUBBS1280]

Take it out of this thread then. Exchange email addresses or something You're making Minnesota fans look stupid.

Nope. I was made to feel bad once, and apologized. Then I found out I was lied to and guilted into making an apology I didn't think I had to or should have made to appease the masses.

Not again. I will keep making the same critical remarks right here thank you. And in case you hadn't figured it out by now Scooby, I could really care less what you think. In my opinion, it is you who are making Minnesota fans look stupid for apologizing for our program's early success.

 

[css228]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Denver from '58-'61 won three titles. Minnesota and Michigan Tech played in the title game three years in a row from '74-'76. North Dakota played in three titles games and won two between '79 and '82. Wisconsin played in three straight title games from '81-'83 and won two. LSSU played in three straight title games from '92-'94 and won two. BU made four straight Final Fours, two title game appearances and a title between '94 and '97. BC made four straight frozen fours and three title game appearances and a title between '98 and '01. There have been a lot of excellent four year runs, but Cornell's was definitely just as impressive as any other.

Very true... topic for another thread perhaps?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Minnesota, with its thousands of lakes and ponds, was an ideal place for the newly formed game of ice hockey to prosper. Shinny, and organized game, had been played in the state since the Civil War. Ice polo had been popular in St. Paul and Minneapolis since the early 1880’s. It was a matter of time before the University of Minnesota would display an interest in the sport. Such concern manifested itself when the first University of Minnesota team, unsanctioned by the college, was organized in January of 1895 by Dr.* H. A. Parkyn, who had played the game in Toronto.

It appears that Johns Hopkins University of Baltimore may have been the first college in the United States to play hockey, having tied the Baltimore Athletic Club at the dedication of the newly built North Avenue Rink in Baltimore on December 26, 1894.* The University of Minnesota may have been the second college in the nation to play the game. Although students from Yale and other eastern colleges visited Canada during Christmas vacation of 1894, Yale did not play the game until January of 1896 when they met Johns Hopkins. Columbia started hockey competition during the winter on 1896, while Brown and Harvard continued to play ice-polo through the season of 1896-1897.

Prior to meeting the Winnipeg Seven, the newly formed Minnesota team played three games against the Minneapolis Hockey Club, with the collegians winning two and losing one game.

The game against Winnipeg was played at the Athletic Park in downtown Minneapolis, located at Sixth Street and First Avenue North, just north of the famous West Hotel.* The park was located on the present site of the renowned Butler Square Building, next to the current Target Center Arena. The park was the home of the professional Minneapolis Millers Baseball Club until they moved to Nicollet Park at Nicollet Avenue and Lake Street on June 19, 1896.* Athletic Park was opened in 1891.* For those interested in baseball lore, Athletic Park measured 275 feet in left field, and 250 feet in right field.* It was a home-run hitter’s delight.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

“As its meeting Wednesday afternoon the Board of control voted
$25 to outfit a hockey team. It was just enough to outfit one man, not
seven, with sticks and pucks. In this the board, with all due respect for
its other admirable qualities, shows the most parsimony in the matter
of financing minor sports that it has shown over the past years.* This
is not so evident in the matter of hockey as it is in track.* If the
University ever expects to develop its minor sports program, it will
have to exchange its attitude somewhat.”

In 1915-1916 a series of games was played by a team
representing the University of Minnesota against Minneapolis
and St. Paul High Schools and St. Thomas College.* However,
the team was not recognized by the University of Minnesota
Athletic Board at this time and the games played were classed
as “pick-up” contests. About this time the fraternities began taking an intense interest in hockey.* While in the season of 1914-1915 only two fraternities, namely Delta Tau, and Sigma Alpha Epsilon, had iced teams.* By the following season 16 fraternities were playing the game.* Professor O.S. Zelner worked untiringly to organize the teams and the league.* These games were played on outdoor ice on Northrop Field with the finals and playoffs often being played at the indoor Hippodrome ice at the State Fairgrounds in St. Paul. Some of them better frat players of this era were the Bros brothers (Chet and Ben), Jenswold, and Lapiere. By 1920 the number of frat and intra-mural teams playing was over 20 in number.* It is interesting to note at this time the women students at the University became interested in hockey and organized teams and a league.* Some of the frat players such as Bernard and the Chester Bros acted as coaches for the women's teams.
During the 1920-1921 season of few games were played as a varsity sport.* Hamline and St. Thomas were defeated.* St. Thomas, considered a state champion, was defeated by Minnesota 3-1 in a game played at the Coliseum Rink on Lexington Avenue near University Avenue in St. Paul. Warm weather canceled several of the scheduled games. Beaupre Eldridge of St. Paul, a student at the time, was very instrumental in organizing the team and promoting the sport at the University during this period. Team members for the 1920-1921 season were: Pond, Dwyer, Langford, Strange, Worreal, Byers, Watson, DeForest, Beard, Higgens, Swenson, Graham, Taylor, Chet Bros, and Eldredge.

 

[css228]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Minnesota, with its thousands of lakes and ponds, was an ideal place for the newly formed game of ice hockey to prosper. Shinny, and organized game, had been played in the state since the Civil War. Ice polo had been popular in St. Paul and Minneapolis since the early 1880’s. It was a matter of time before the University of Minnesota would display an interest in the sport. Such concern manifested itself when the first University of Minnesota team, unsanctioned by the college, was organized in January of 1895 by Dr.* H. A. Parkyn, who had played the game in Toronto.

It appears that Johns Hopkins University of Baltimore may have been the first college in the United States to play hockey, having tied the Baltimore Athletic Club at the dedication of the newly built North Avenue Rink in Baltimore on December 26, 1894.* The University of Minnesota may have been the second college in the nation to play the game. Although students from Yale and other eastern colleges visited Canada during Christmas vacation of 1894, Yale did not play the game until January of 1896 when they met Johns Hopkins. Columbia started hockey competition during the winter on 1896, while Brown and Harvard continued to play ice-polo through the season of 1896-1897.

Prior to meeting the Winnipeg Seven, the newly formed Minnesota team played three games against the Minneapolis Hockey Club, with the collegians winning two and losing one game.

The game against Winnipeg was played at the Athletic Park in downtown Minneapolis, located at Sixth Street and First Avenue North, just north of the famous West Hotel.* The park was located on the present site of the renowned Butler Square Building, next to the current Target Center Arena. The park was the home of the professional Minneapolis Millers Baseball Club until they moved to Nicollet Park at Nicollet Avenue and Lake Street on June 19, 1896.* Athletic Park was opened in 1891.* For those interested in baseball lore, Athletic Park measured 275 feet in left field, and 250 feet in right field.* It was a home-run hitter’s delight.

That's great. Nobody here is denying that Minnesota has had great teams and has a great hockey history, but how exactly do you propose comparing NON-NCAA era teams to NCAA era teams? How do you weight a national title from that era? Did conferences even exist? We all understand you're proud of you're history, but the game was so different back then its just hard to compare. I'm impressed we can really compare the 50's, 60's, and 70's to the last 30 years. Besides no matter what, you're never going to convince a UND fan that a Minnesota team was the greatest ever (even such a debatable one as 1940) just like you'd never convince a Cornell fan or a BC fan that a BU team was the best ever. Nobody here can change your beliefs, this is supposed to be a fun and debated topic, and perhaps a chance to learn about some great teams you didn't know about. Not a Minnesota vs. North Dakota smackdown. We all are going to believe our schools are the best. OF course I think 69-70 Cornell is best, but it doesn't really matter if they come out #1 in this poll, because I still will be going to Lynah tonight, harassing Princeton's sieve, and staring at the banners and the jerseys in the rafters in awe. That's what this should be all about. This thread is meant for people who love college hockey to share their love of the game. Let's keep it civil.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I'm obviously biased and think there was a bit more competition in the late 60s, but those two have to be 1-2 no matter what order you choose them to be.

And of course Uncle Ned beat Michigan (and Minnesota) in 1954, to help the case for his Cornell teams.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Synonymous with the sport of Ice Hockey, the small mining town of Eveleth Minnesota has come to be known around the country as the "Hockey Capital of the United States," due to its incredible ability to produce numerous elite players in the first half of the 20th century. Located 60 miles north of Duluth, and 100 miles south of the Canadian border, this small town of under 5,000 residents has contributed more to American hockey than any other city in the country. The sport of hockey is estimated to have been played in the town of Eveleth since 1902. With one hundred years of hockey tradition, this town has many stories that could fill numerous pages of text, but one in particular stands out.
The 1928-1929 Eveleth Junior College hockey team, who was comprised entirely of Eveleth players, was the number one ranked college hockey team in the nation, ahead of teams such as Yale, Minnesota, Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth. So good was this junior college team that it was considered by the United States Olympic Committee to represent the United States in the 1928 Winter Olympic Games in Amsterdam, Holland. However, due to a lack of financial funding, Eveleth Junior College respectfully declined the invitation to serve as the US Olympic hockey team, and the United States consequently was not represented in the 1928 Winter Games.

<A HREF="http://www.evelethyouthhockey.com/page/show/48034-history-of-eveleth-hockey">http://www.evelethyouthhockey.com/page/show/48034-history-of-eveleth-hockey</A>

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

23, just curious what the formula is?

There's a good short discussion in # 183 and # 184 of this thread. If I understood FS23 correctly, his formula adjusts "strength of conference schedule" for teams' relative finish each year.

Again, if I understand correctly, that means it is your record vs # 2 team in conference, # 3 team in conference, etc. is part of formula.

I forget if strength of out of conference schedule is adjusted unless you play other Tournament teams OOC, which does give you additional points.

 

[mariucci]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

First off, a thread created by a Sioux fan such as this, that incidentally or coincidentally puts the Sioux in the top 3 College Hockey programs of the NCAA era smells a bit ripe for harvest and begs to be investigated and scrutinized. Same would be said if a Goph fan, BC, BU or MI,DU fan etc created a "formula" that so happens to put that program in the top 3.

Which is why I asked to see the formula. It was an honest question because I suspect the formula to contain bias measures. Not becuase the Fighting Canucks are ranked higher than the Gophs, just an off the cuff look at the numbers I wouldn't expect the Gophs to be ranked any higher than where they're at "according to the college hockey guru"...

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

First off, a thread created by a Sioux fan such as this, that incidentally or coincidentally puts the Sioux in the top 3 College Hockey programs of the NCAA era smells a bit ripe for harvest and begs to be investigated and scrutinized. Same would be said if a Goph fan, BC, BU or MI,DU fan etc created a "formula" that so happens to put that program in the top 3.

Which is why I asked to see the formula. It was an honest question because I suspect the formula to contain bias measures. Not becuase the Fighting Canucks are ranked higher than the Gophs, just an off the cuff look at the numbers I wouldn't expect the Gophs to be ranked any higher than where they're at "according to the college hockey guru"...

I have to say that your initial premise is only one possibility and not necessarily a certainty. I could just as easily see a person thinking "well, of course I think my team is the greatest of all time, however that is emotional bias on my part. how does my team really stack up against others, if I try to correct for my bias by finding a way to be more objective?"

"Hmm...well, that's an interesting question, how might I go about it?"

and you start with a simple idea or two, then you tweak it a little, and you get drawn into it more than you initially expected you would, and you add some more details, and tweak it some more....

He's been really clear about his formula and how it works and how it weights things, and you can read about it and then decide (see # 183 and # 184).

While one can understand how you might assume he is trying to begin with a conclusion and then work backward to develop his formula, your assumption is not necessarily true, you know. It is always possible that a different thing entirely might be true instead.

to paraphrase felix unger, "when you act on an assumption without checking it first, you can come off as being an ***."

 

[JDUBBS1280]

That's great. Nobody here is denying that Minnesota has had great teams and has a great hockey history, but how exactly do you propose comparing NON-NCAA era teams to NCAA era teams? How do you weight a national title from that era? Did conferences even exist? We all understand you're proud of you're history, but the game was so different back then its just hard to compare. I'm impressed we can really compare the 50's, 60's, and 70's to the last 30 years. Besides no matter what, you're never going to convince a UND fan that a Minnesota team was the greatest ever (even such a debatable one as 1940) just like you'd never convince a Cornell fan or a BC fan that a BU team was the best ever. Nobody here can change your beliefs, this is supposed to be a fun and debated topic, and perhaps a chance to learn about some great teams you didn't know about. Not a Minnesota vs. North Dakota smackdown. We all are going to believe our schools are the best. OF course I think 69-70 Cornell is best, but it doesn't really matter if they come out #1 in this poll, because I still will be going to Lynah tonight, harassing Princeton's sieve, and staring at the banners and the jerseys in the rafters in awe. That's what this should be all about. This thread is meant for people who love college hockey to share their love of the game. Let's keep it civil.

I really don't care about FS23's rankings. I just don't like the defensive and condescending way in which he has handled the questioning of his approach. If you don't want people to criticize your work, then don't post it in a public forum.

Most of all, I don't like being lied to and guilted into making an apology. So, the content of my recent posts serve a reason other than to prove anything in particular

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I just don't like the defensive and condescending way in which he has handled the questioning of his approach.

I've heard it said that many people are the most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are the most sensitive to in themselves.....

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I have to say that your initial premise is only one possibility and not necessarily a certainty. I could just as easily see a person thinking "well, of course I think my team is the greatest of all time, however that is emotional bias on my part. how does my team really stack up against others, if I try to correct for my bias by finding a way to be more objective?"

"Hmm...well, that's an interesting question, how might I go about it?"

and you start with a simple idea or two, then you tweak it a little, and you get drawn into it more than you initially expected you would, and you add some more details, and tweak it some more....

He's been really clear about his formula and how it works and how it weights things, and you can read about it and then decide (see # 183 and # 184).

While one can understand how you might assume he is trying to begin with a conclusion and then work backward to develop his formula, your assumption is not necessarily true, you know. It is always possible that a different thing entirely might be true instead.

to paraphrase felix unger, "when you act on an assumption without checking it first, you can come off as being an ***."

My criticism isn't with his formula, or the results. It is with which portions of hockey history he decided were and were not worthy of consideration (not this thread, but the best overall programs).

And really, I have no objection with him not using the pre-NCAA hockey history in his best programs rankings. But to lie to people and say that he did include that portion of history in his rankings, and that the results from this portion of history carried equal weight, when he did not is a dishonest and deceitful.

And I probably would have just called him out on it and let it go if he hadn't thrown a huge fit about it a few weeks ago, and sworn to the heavens that I was wrong to the point where I felt bad and apologized.

Forget that. He deserves every bit of criticism he is getting right now.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I've heard it said that many people are the most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are the most sensitive to in themselves.....

I am not dishonest or deceitful. In fact, I am honest to the point of being brash. And I can be a very sensitive and caring guy. But I will admit, when I am lied to and deceived (and then made to feel guilty about it), I can be extremely vindictive.

 

[mariucci]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

It is a legit criticism, but it is important to remember, at least in regards to this formula, that conference strength plays a role in how many points a team gets for those conference titles. For example, the 2005 WCHA Titles were worth quite a bit more than the 2005 CCHA Titles.. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is completely up to you. I have never claimed that it is a perfect formula, but it was the best that I could come up with, and I think it does a good job of ranking a team's dominance.

The part I am questioning is this and what you appear to admit, its not a perfect formula. What makes it imperfect is you're trying to determine SOC, which has little to nothing to do with how good or bad a team is. Sure a team can waltz into the tournament with a soft conference equalling a soft SOS, but that still doesn't mean a team or program lacks due to a weaker conference.

If I were to do it I would use a simple(r) formula, a point system.
Maybe 2 points for winning the NCAA, 1 point for contending, 1/2 point for semifinals and a 1/4 point for the invite.. (shooting in the dark and this is just an example)
When you get into SOS and SOC it gets way to dicey leaving to much room for bias opinion and argument.
Getting into SOC would have to include alot to be completely objective and that would require a ton of leg work (when did a team fall, when did a team face eachother during that season, was it lopsided or two fold? Injury reports, rivalries, home vs away etc etc.

Take the Gophs schedule to date as a small sample size for debate. Many say the Gophs haven't played anyone yet. Do you consider the Sioux a good team, what happens during the 2nd half of the season with the Sioux? How about the sweep in Anchorage (I had them as my early season favorites to surprise), it takes a good team or team effort to make the conference look weak, how about UMD? The Gophs swept them and I heard many say that UMD was one of those "nobodies", what I saw was 2 hard faught games and they are now rebounding, what if they had stayed in every game and came up a bit short in all their games.. My point is theres way too much to dig into when trying to formulate SOC and SOS to determine the best College Hockey schools/programs.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I am not dishonest or deceitful. In fact, I am honest to the point of being brash. And I can be a very sensitive and caring guy. But I will admit, when I am lied to and deceived (and then made to feel guilty about it), I can be extremely vindictive.

Be that as it may, if you look back then you will notice that the only words of yours that were quoted were 'defensive' and 'condescending'.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Be that as it may, if you look back then you will notice that the only words of yours that were quoted were 'defensive' and 'condescending'.

When this all began, I was neither. As of right now, I am both and will not apologize for being either.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

=If I were to do it I would use a simple(r) formula, a point system.
Maybe 2 points for winning the NCAA, 1 point for contending, 1/2 point for semifinals and a 1/4 point for the invite

Aha, I smell a legitimate challenge here. FS23 has the raw data, you have a formula, you can collaborate and start a thread "mariucci's alternate top 25 US division I men's college hockey teams of the NCAA era" and we'll see what team your formula produces.

Actually, you don't need his data since all the data you already need is available on wikipedia. If you know how to do excel you could probably put together your rankings in about 2 hours of copy and paste.

Of course, if you get 1/4 point for the invite, how do you equalize between the time when only 4 teams were invited relative to the time when 16 teams were invited?

I suppose you COULD just have a top 5 for each change in tournament size, and have 4 top 5s instead....

Of course, your proposed formula would only rank programs, not individual teams; every winning team would have the same score every year with your proposed formula, no?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I don't know if you know this or not, but I have done extensive research on the history of college hockey, so I am pretty familiar with that site.

And this isn't "defensive" or "condescending"?

The guy acts like he's THE authority on college hockey history.

If he had in fact read "that site", he wouldn't so easily discount the competitiveness of some of the so-called "amateur" programs of the era. And instead of learning about something he may have missed, he acts like a a-hole.

 

[mariucci]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Aha, I smell a legitimate challenge here. FS23 has the raw data, you have a formula, you can collaborate and start a thread "mariucci's alternate top 25 US division I men's college hockey teams of the NCAA era" and we'll see what team your formula produces.

Actually, you don't need his data since all the data you already need is available on wikipedia. If you know how to do excel you could probably put together your rankings in about 2 hours of copy and paste.

Of course, if you get 1/4 point for the invite, how do you equalize between the time when only 4 teams were invited relative to the time when 16 teams were invited?

I suppose you COULD just have a top 5 for each change in tournament size, and have 4 top 5s instead....

Of course, your proposed formula would only rank programs, not individual teams; every winning team would have the same score every year with your proposed formula, no?

I like how you left uot the rest.. convenient...

I said as an example, did you miss that?
I also made it clear that when using SOC or SOS as part of the formula gets dicey which is why I would use a simple point system. Incase you missed that part as well. It was a suggestion, but I suppose you didn;'t read it that way, am I right?

As far as ranking a program which 23 is tempting you would need to tally each season correct? Or do you just shoot in the dark? Read my post, were it says EXAMPLE, read that a few times, heck maybe even write it out on the chalkboard a couple hundred times until it sinks in..

And to 23, my post was intended to be a suggestion, but the weak minded would like to turn that into something entirely different...

In the matter of the above posters attempt at creating another debate of semantics (when I was clearly "on topic" with my suggestion or opinion, and who fealt the need to come to 23's rescue), I have one small suggestion we were taught in the academy I'll pass on to you, (first thru the State as a trooper, then off the county where im currently employed) Don't cherry pick your investigation to create false facts or mislead, the holes in your argument is what you'd hear chanted in the Kohl Center "sieve sieve sieve" and you'll quickly discredit yourself in the future.

EDIT: Shoot I forgot the rules again, sorry.. I forgot to ask if it was ok for a Goph fan to have an opinion or question without coming off as arrogant.. Silly me!!