The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

No the fundamental flaw isnt the challenger, it is the Dem voter. You know it and I know it. That is why Gore lost despite being the better man. Him being boring shouldnt have stopped him but Dems need to be lead because they dont have the passion for the issues (well half of them) that the GOP does.

And Brent can defend himself, but so what. I can defend him too when you and Scooby are acting off your rockers.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I give up on this issue. I'm done with it.

Good cause you arent even arguing the same issue. Stick to your Guns, Gays and God narrative it actually works and is relevant to every political argument.

 

[joecct]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Rover

How do you propose to wipe out the GOP?

Reeducation camps?
Forced labor?
Shallow graves?
Midnight knocks on the door?

 

[MissThundercat]

Rover

How do you propose to wipe out the GOP?

Reeducation camps?
Forced labor?
Shallow graves?
Midnight knocks on the door?

Night of the Long Knives. Nights, if need be.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Handy I'd like you to consider that you're narrative here is a bit to convenient. Every challenger who lost if fundamentally flawed, while every one who won is a dynamic speaker??? I must have missed where George W Bush was an inspirational figure?

W ran against Al Gore and John Kerry, two men so utterly boring Roget’s ran out of synonyms for them.

No Dem candidate who ran would have beaten Trump because Dem voters after holding the WH for 8 years got lazy. He would have killed Sanders by a bigger margin and I don't see Biden doing much better, a guy who's more corporate and had been in DC twice as long as Hillary had been.

Disagree, Sanders would’ve beaten Trump and with Biden it wouldn’t have been close.

Saying "oh just don't run another Hillary" is a horrible miscalculation. What Dem voters need to realize is the stakes here. We're fighting Nazis. A treasonous cult with anti-American values. I don't care if the nominee is Bernie Sanders, Joe Manchin, Elmer Fudd or Wile E Coyote. The entire Republican party needs to be wiped out. That is our calling. Once that happens we can discuss tax rates of 50-90% for rich people and Medicare expansion vs single payer for all. Right now lets keep our eyes on the main issue here.

Ok, that all well and good but you don’t have a plan to actually do that. Just going “we’re not Trump!” isn’t going to cut it. Maybe realizing that vast swaths of this country are PO’d that the oligarchs are running wild and running on issues like higher tax rates on the rich and single payer healthcare will be the things to actually defeat the Nazis would be a start.

PS - Brent is a Trump Humper. We're going to have to agree to disagree here but presumably the dude can defend himself?

Brent loves to do his “centrist” routine but he’s not a Trump Guy.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Seems some are taking for granted that running a dem from the left wing is a winning strategy. Its much more complicated than that.

1) Not all existing dems see all far left issues as a win - Bernie, who was left of Hillary, won less than 30% of AA votes.

This is one single race in which Bernie made a ton of mistakes. It's not really indicative of anything other than Bernie running his campaign poorly.

2) Saying 'we'll just turn out more D votes' is true only to a certain extent. Many in inner cities and many students just don't and won't vote. It doesn't matter what the platform or who's running. A huge number of AAs didn't turn out to vote for the first president of their ethnicity. Not sure what makes anyone think they'll come out for a specific policy.

Because they're not going to vote for some Republican of 20 years ago centrist who delivers nothing tangible and wants to maintain the status quo. I have friends like this who have never voted because they think politicians are mostly just scumbags who placate rich oligarch donors. The thing is you could actually turn these people out and get them to vote with a message like Ocasio's and that's literally what her strategy was. Connor Lamb won a rural district that Trump won by 20 points with a populist campaign that may not have been socialist but also wouldn't have been won by some run of the mill centrist either.

The Dems need to focus on those who DON'T VOTE. Those people aren't republicans I can guarantee you that much.

3) Most importantly, many independents are voting no matter what. So you may get one inner city woman to vote because of a platform of the left...but lose an independent who was voting D having them switch parties. You would be at a net loss of one vote and worse than when you started. So the net message is that you have to pick up two voters who didn't want to vote to make up for one independent who changed their vote. And as said, turning out votes gets harder and harder...but turning off independents doesn't.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah an independent is gonna vote for Trump because Bernie wants single payer, affordable college, social justice, and a fairer economic system. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK, this is hilariously stupid.

Look man we know you have a nice paying job at US Bank and want the status quo but that's literally what got us Trump.

 

[Jimjamesak]

No the fundamental flaw isnt the challenger, it is the Dem voter. You know it and I know it. That is why Gore lost despite being the better man. Him being boring shouldnt have stopped him but Dems need to be lead because they dont have the passion for the issues (well half of them) that the GOP does.

This. Dems have no idea how to go for the throat and just jam **** through. Republicans have long learned you don’t have to please everyone, just 50%+1 of who actually votes. Who gives a **** what everyone thinks, just get it done.

 

[Rover]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

jim you're smoking dope if you think Sanders would have come within a mile of Trump in that race.

joecct I'd prefer to resort to legal ways to destroy the GOP instead of any of your suggestions. Some of the points I'd highlight are:

1) Contest all races, big and small, up and down the ballot. Dems post Howard Dean took their eyes off of this and the results have been devastating as the Koch Bros organizations focused on this at the very same time. Legislature, AG races, state Supreme court, etc etc.

2) Stop being afraid to get personal in your attacks. If someone wrote, tweeted, or supported Nazism or racism in the past, or is an accused wife beater or whatever, get that out in public. If a guy is spouting pro-Russia $%%^, publically speculate that he's on Vlady's payroll (Nunes). Dem candidates are playing by rules the other side long since abandoned. Time to play for keeps.

3) Lump ALL Republicans in Congress, every single one, as being soldiers in the treasonous money laundering cult. It makes me sick when some Dem will go out and embrace Susan Collins or John McCain for the 1 time out of 1,000 they vote against their party, or send out a lame tweet with mild criticism. They're ALL part of the corruption and they all need to go!!!

In short, ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK!!!! It would be one thing if we had no material to work with, but jesus Christ, its almost like we have too much. Anytime some Gooper idiot showed up a town hall or debate I'd be playing footage of those kids in concentration camps wailing at the border and then asking the GOP candidate how they could live with themselves. Don't want for the national media to do it. Anybody who voted to get rid of the ACA, I don't care how red the district, should have to come face to face with someone with a medical condition that they tried to take away insurance from. Go for the jugular already!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

This is one single race in whic Bernie made a ton of mistakes. It's not really indicative of anything other than Bernie running his campaign poorly.

I hope so, because he got waxed in the Dem primary. Bernie being left of Hillary, Trump would have had a landslide had Bernie been involved. Huffpo, the Hill, Slate, NYT and dailykos all had articles suggesting Sanders was unelectable.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ber...rome..69i57.4837j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah an independent is gonna vote for Trump because Bernie wants single payer, affordable college, social justice, and a fairer economic system. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK, this is hilariously stupid.

Look man we know you have a nice paying job at US Bank and want the status quo but that's literally what got us Trump.

Again you need to turn out new voters at about 3x the rate of independent votes that switch parties to gain any ground. With many people that will never vote, that math just doesn't work.

And yes, everyone's a wall street banker. Go with that.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

And yet every poll showed that Hillary's margin vs Trump was far more narrow than Bernie's. So yeah that narrative is false and he won the swing states that ultimately would've turned the outcome.

How many independent voters switched from Obama to Trump? Like zero? These people don't exist and that's basically what Hillary was chasing and we all saw how that worked out. That's the one salient point that Scooby has been making in these threads. There aren't any voters who typically vote for dems but suddenly switch to Trump because the candidate in question wants people to have healthcare. It's patently absurd.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

And yet every poll showed that Hillary's margin vs Trump was far more narrow than Bernie's. So yeah that narrative is false and he won the swing states that ultimately would've turned the outcome.

How many independent voters switched from Obama to Trump? Like zero? These people don't exist and that's basically what Hillary was chasing and we all saw how that worked out. That's the one salient point that Scooby has been making in these threads. There aren't any voters who typically vote for dems but suddenly switch to Trump because the candidate in question wants people to have healthcare. It's patently absurd.

No, sorry. Appreciate the defense but there were Obama voters that voted for Trump. There's no defending me so it's not worth trying.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Bernie wouldnt have won. This narrative needs to stop. If he couldnt beat Hillary (and I swear if someone says it was rigged I will murder them through my comp) he wasnt beating Trump. Bernie had the right platform he was just the wrong guy to be running it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Bernie wouldnt have won. This narrative needs to stop. If he couldnt beat Hillary (and I swear if someone says it was rigged I will murder them through my comp) he wasnt beating Trump. Bernie had the right platform he was just the wrong guy to be running it.

Not to impose here but during this mornings argument "anyone but Hillary" was the winner. Which was exactly what I was arguing against and summarily dismissed like I was an idiot.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

It ultimately doesn't matter.

Scooby, I'm sure there were a handful who switched from Obama to Trump but for the most part the issue was not enough of the base voting, not "independents" switching to the other side.

My dad claims to have voted for Obama and then voted for Trump but I'm not entirely convinced that's true given that he voted for Reagan, Bush (W), Trump, and probably Dole. If he did vote for Obama I'm guessing it was only the first term due to the economy crashing. He also said he would've voted for Bernie FWIW (not much lol) because he hated Hillary. Either way though a voter like him isn't gonna be won over by Republican lite democrats. If he wanted that he'd just vote for the Republican.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Scooby, I'm sure there were a handful who switched from Obama to Trump but for the most part the issue was not enough of the base voting, not "independents" switching to the other side.

Rural moderates or independents switching from Obama to Trump was precisely the reason why Trump won. Rural moderates took Ohio and Iowa out of play, put Minnesota in play, and flipped Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.

https://www.cnbc.com/heres-a-map-of-the-us-counties-that-flipped-to-trump-from-democrats/

 

[Rover]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Not to impose here but during this mornings argument "anyone but Hillary" was the winner. Which was exactly what I was arguing against and summarily dismissed like I was an idiot.

Well, technically you could be right about something and still be an idiot.

What I would offer up for consideration is that some progressive ideas may poll well because they haven't been challenged yet in a campaign.

For example, if you tell people "single payer" it polls well. If you tell people you taxes will skyrocket but you'll get that money back in the form of lower health care costs, their interest stops after the word "skyrocket" and they tune out all else. Sanders for example polled well because 1) nobody ever attacked him with Hillary wanting his votes and the right wanting to prop him up, and 2) similarly as there seemed to be little chance of his proposals being enacted they were by and large left unchallenged.

So, I'm not saying don't run on this or that. What I am saying is have your ducks in a row ahead of time and anticipate the coming attacks, because they will come.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Yes we know what counties flipped, that doesn't mean everyone there switched their vote, it means less dems voted in those areas.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Not to impose here but during this mornings argument "anyone but Hillary" was the winner. Which was exactly what I was arguing against and summarily dismissed like I was an idiot.

So your argument to prove your point is that a guy who you hate, who wasnt part of the party, who couldnt beat Clinton proves your point? Go on with your bad self.

BTW that doesnt make what you said to Brent correct. He still wasnt saying what you pretended he said. Nice straw man though. Brent said one thing, you attacked him for saying something he didnt say and I argued with you.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Yes we know what counties flipped, that doesn't mean everyone there switched their vote, it means less dems voted in those areas.

Ok, let's kick the tires on that.

The Center for Politics studied the matter extensively and this was their conclusion:

"Using these percentages (not rounded) and Trump’s overall 2016 vote total, estimates of the raw number of such switching Obama-Trump voters range from about 6.7 million to 9.2 million."

"These surveys offer additional evidence about a critical part of the 2016 equation: the millions of voters who switched from Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016. Given the extremely close margins in some states, particularly the Rust Belt trio of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, these voters played a crucial role in handing over the White House to the GOP."

Switching votes gave Trump the white house.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/cr...many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Ok I'll concede that those people exist based on a study that's essentially just guessing but again if the dems turned out like they did in 2008 that point would be completely irrelevant and nobody would be talking about it (and no I'm not gonna chalk that up to him being a good charismatic speaker lol). And again you still have a much larger segment of the population that doesn't vote and perhaps reaching out to them might not be the worst idea rather than just chalking it up to laziness while running on maintaining the stat quo.