The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

My cultural resentments that they're activating? Exactly what would those be? I've stated on here numerous times, I support gay marriage. I think abortion should be an issue of choice for the woman. My position on immigration, which I've posted here multiple times, is probably as liberal as any person in this country. My view is that if you want to move here, welcome. You have to obey our laws, pay taxes, and do everything else the rest of us do. You don't get to vote or get the privileges of citizenship unless you actually go through the process of becoming a citizen, but you're certainly free to apply. Immigration is simply nature telling people to move to a place with a better standard of living, and it's immoral to try to impede that with laws.

So exactly how, again, is the right activating my cultural buttons?

I've always viewed all politicians as people looking only for power for themselves and the ability to line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends. Nothing I've seen over my lifetime has changed that opinion.

But the thing I've found about Republican candidates, for the most part, is they'll tell you exactly how they're going to try to seize that power and steal from me. I also understand that they won't be able to steal everything because someone will oppose the most egregious of the thefts simply for political reasons and the chance to gain power and line their own pockets. I've trusted the Courts to impede their cultural attacks.

The problem I've found with most Democratic candidates is I really have no idea what I'm getting. I could get a Paul Wellstone who does exactly what he says he'll do. Or I'll get someone who will pander to the 99%, then spend their years in office claiming the reason they haven't actually done what they promised to do is because they've been obstructed every step of the way.

I always choose the devil I know over the one I don't.

This post makes way too much sense. I don't know if it's ready for the authoritarians here...

 

[Rover]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.

It's easier to deliver what the Republicans are selling. Much easier. Have you ever seen the Republicans make a hard choice, ever? It's pretty easy to throw the poor, immigrants, and the middle class out the window. It's easy to say Government doesn't work and get people to vote for you. It's hard to say Social Security'/Medicare/Medicaid work and we need more money and here's how and why. Republicans have the easy path. Look at all those people that voted for "Populist Outsider" Donald Trump. Are any of them getting what they voted for, really? No, but he's delivering because he got the easy stuff through (Tax Cuts), screwing the immigrants (Wall, DACA, Travel Ban), and screwing the poor (CHIP isn't even part of this thought process, nor the Republicans).

That's all easy. It's easy to say screw it. It's hard to say "let's find a way to make it work better". Hell, the CFPB is another great example.

Or, better yet. Tell me one thing he's done since he got into office that built something? Anything? All he's done is tear things down. He hasn't "built" something. Deregulating is easy. Making a regulation that works economically and helps the American People and does the right thing is ****ing hard. Let us know when the GOP does something hard. Then get back to me about whining about how the Democrats never accomplish anything.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....

It makes complete sense.

Yes, they say they are going to screw me, although honestly because I've had some breaks along the way a lot of their fiscal policies probably help me more than screw me. But yes, I understand going in that their policies probably aren't economically advantageous for the vast majority of the citizens. But what I also understand is that simple politics are not going to allow them to completely empty the vault. They will never be allowed to go as far as they would like. They could never get a law passed that exempts from taxes all income earned over $20,000 for instance. Even that would be too brazen for enough of them that you couldn't get a majority vote. I do generally favor small government over large.

The same way with the cultural issues. Yeah, they're going to pass laws that try to prevent gays from marrying or women from getting abortions. But I also know that the courts are always there to put the breaks on that nonsense.

But let's say you're an African American citizen in this country. For 50 years the Democrats have been telling you that they're the ones who are going to make your life better. They're going to lift you out of poverty. They're going to end the racial injustice that exists. The same for the poor.

How have you done on that, by the way?

The ideals of the Democratic party are a thousand times better than those proposed by the Republican party. Of course. Who doesn't want racial harmony. Who doesn't want for all of us to be economically prosperous instead of just 1% of us.

But all you do is promise it. Then, when you don't deliver, you wonder why African Americans or poor white people don't turn out to vote for you in the election, or even worse, vote for Trump.

I don't vote for Republican candidates only. I vote strictly on whether I like the person or not, and more importantly, whether I think they're lying to me.

I voted for Franken, and would have done so again. In the last election I voted for the Democratic candidate for my congressional seat because I thought the Republican candidate was just plain dumb. But I didn't vote for Governor Dayton. I supported Tim Pawlenty. I voted for McCain, but then I voted for Obama against Romney.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

No, it makes no sense. Republicans don't do anything that's hard. Everything is the easy path.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.

No, if you choose to vote against your interests you lose. You dont get extra credit just because you have principles. You can talk about how things need to change all you want to but you dont change things by just letting the other side win. Republicans get that and Democrats dont.

Simple math...if one side will give you some of what you want and the other will give you none who do you vote for? If, as is the case under our system, there is no legit third option and is akin to a vote for the other side who do you vote for? 50% is better than 0% basic logic. Democrats who make decisions like that are extremely selfish.

This isnt a classroom, the consequences are too important. If Black People in the South cant be bothered to vote for the party that is fighting to keep their right to vote then they can pound sand. If people in Flint, Michigan cant be bothered to vote for President despite the fact that the other party is poisoning their water...well then they can continue to drink it. These people need to start playing chess instead of Candyland. There is way more at stake than their idiotic principles. Their principles handed the government over to the GOP.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....

Jesus I thought I was the only one who read his post and thought he was saying that.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

No, if you choose to vote against your interests you lose. You dont get extra credit just because you have principles. You can talk about how things need to change all you want to but you dont change things by just letting the other side win. Republicans get that and Democrats dont.

Simple math...if one side will give you some of what you want and the other will give you none who do you vote for? If, as is the case under our system, there is no legit third option and is akin to a vote for the other side who do you vote for? 50% is better than 0% basic logic. Democrats who make decisions like that are extremely selfish.

This isnt a classroom, the consequences are too important. If Black People in the South cant be bothered to vote for the party that is fighting to keep their right to vote then they can pound sand. If people in Flint, Michigan cant be bothered to vote for President despite the fact that the other party is poisoning their water...well then they can continue to drink it. These people need to start playing chess instead of Candyland. There is way more at stake than their idiotic principles. Their principles handed the government over to the GOP.

As did decades of dem failure to accomplish anything meaningful that would help them. Maybe if they push another neo-liberal and yell "lesser of two evils!!!" it'll work THIS TIME though

And I don't think people aren't voting due to some principle, I think they're doing it because voter suppression basically means you have to magically get a day off from your non-PTO job if you have your birth certificate and the various forms of ID necessary to vote in these **** hole states. And if all you have to offer is the slightly more palatable option that isn't going to do much to fix the core issues you and your community face then they probably aren't going to go through the trouble of voting. You can keep doing the whole self serving "they deserve it" BS but if you care about winning as much as you claim to then maybe try supporting candidates that will energize the base. That's not so much directed at you because you claim to have backed Bernie initially but the neo-lib wing of the party who thinks doing more of the same failed strategy that hasn't worked for 2 decades now can't just keep abdicating responsibility when they're clearly the root cause of the problem. You can act like it's selfish to vote third party and I don't disagree but so is supporting some incrementalist in the primary because FYGM.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

As did decades of dem failure to accomplish anything meaningful that would help them. Maybe if they push another neo-liberal and yell "lesser of two evils!!!" it'll work THIS TIME though

And I don't think people aren't voting due to some principle, I think they're doing it because voter suppression basically means you have to magically get a day off from your non-PTO job if you have your birth certificate and the various forms of ID necessary to vote in these **** hole states. And if all you have to offer is the slightly more palatable option that isn't going to do much to fix the core issues you and your community face then they probably aren't going to go through the trouble of voting. You can keep doing the whole self serving "they deserve it" BS but if you care about winning as much as you claim to then maybe try supporting candidates that will energize the base. That's not so much directed at you because you claim to have backed Bernie initially but the neo-lib wing of the party who thinks doing more of the same failed strategy that hasn't worked for 2 decades now can't just keep abdicating responsibility when they're clearly the root cause of the problem. You can act like it's selfish to vote third party and I don't disagree but so is supporting some incrementalist in the primary because FYGM.

Oh BS. Dont play that game with me. I have read all the information about voter suppression and that isnt why Dem turnout was so low. Maybe you want to believe that crap but literally no one else does and no actual facts back it up. There was voter suppression but for the general election far more people either voted third party or didnt vote at all. (some just left President blank) Voter suppression did more harm locally. I know that doesnt jibe with your little diatribe but it is the truth. Michigan didnt suppress votes yet Hillary got way less than Obama did. That is the case in almost every state she lost. I wonder why...

And dont for a second tell me who I should support and why ok. I was on here touting Bernie and other non-mainstream Dems while you were still a NEWBIE on GPL talking about the PWR. Your little theories and rationalizations arent any sort of breathe of fresh air...they are the same tired rhetoric people have been using for decades and while they sound really cool in a soundbyte or on a t-shirt in the real world they are worthless platitudes that only cause more problems. You may not like the "failed strategy" of the Democratic Party but that "failed strategy" is a lot more successful than the crap the "neo-lib" wing of the party is trying to pull. (8 years of Bill and 8 years of Obama > 0 years of Bernie and the rest of Progressives that have run in my lifetime) Insurrection = automatic loss. Splitting the Party = GOP Controls it All. You want to effect change in the current political scene you dont do it by cutting off your nose to spite your face you do it by winning and fixing it while you have the chance. People need to be dragged Left because they hate change but that is much easier when the leadership is already going that way. The "neo-lib" wing of the party would be in a much better position now if they had just shut their mouths and voted Hillary. They would have had a hand in the agenda, they wouldnt be an after thought watching as the GOP destroys everything they stand for.

And trust me, it doesnt make me feel good to write people off but I am done trying to help the people who wont even be bothered to try and help themselves.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Well you're wrong
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/voter-suppression-wisconsin-election-2016/

As for my comments about supporting people who can win, that wasn’t even directed at you so you don’t need to act like an aggrieved habitual Fox viewer about it. And honestly that’s just basic logic.

Also these failed platitudes you speak of are those of the most popular politician in the country and have been polling well. So basically everything you just wrote is wrong lmao.

For the record the neo-liberal wing of the party is Hillary and Gore and all the other colossal failures the DNC has graced us with over the past 20 years.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Mother Jones, lol. Pull your head out of the far-left sand at least once a day, OK?

 

[trixR4kids]

Mother Jones, lol. Pull your head out of the far-left sand at least once a day, OK?

Youre going to argue there wasn’t voter suppression because you don’t like the source? Ooooooook. How about debating the actual data or something substantive.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Youre going to argue there wasn’t voter suppression because you don’t like the source? Ooooooook. How about debating the actual data or something substantive.

No we arent arguing there wasnt voter suppression. Learn to read. We are saying voter suppression isnt why Hillary lost. That you cant figure that out is kind of astounding.

Hell it isnt like voter suppression is something new, they were doing it in 2012. (I believe it was the Virginia SecState who said their voter ID laws would flip the state for Romney when asked about) The difference was people cared enough to fight it or to show up. Obama inspired people to vote, Hillary didnt. It isnt hard to do the math. Hell even in the states she won her numbers were way down from him...I wonder why that is.

If you want to say it contributed...fine. If you want to say that was THE reason then sorry but that just isnt the case.

 

[trixR4kids]

No we arent arguing there wasnt voter suppression. Learn to read. We are saying voter suppression isnt why Hillary lost. That you cant figure that out is kind of astounding.

Hell it isnt like voter suppression is something new, they were doing it in 2012. (I believe it was the Virginia SecState who said their voter ID laws would flip the state for Romney when asked about) The difference was people cared enough to fight it or to show up. Obama inspired people to vote, Hillary didnt. It isnt hard to do the math. Hell even in the states she won her numbers were way down from him...I wonder why that is.

If you want to say it contributed...fine. If you want to say that was THE reason then sorry but that just isnt the case.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

It makes complete sense.

Yes, they say they are going to screw me, although honestly because I've had some breaks along the way a lot of their fiscal policies probably help me more than screw me. But yes, I understand going in that their policies probably aren't economically advantageous for the vast majority of the citizens. But what I also understand is that simple politics are not going to allow them to completely empty the vault. They will never be allowed to go as far as they would like. They could never get a law passed that exempts from taxes all income earned over $20,000 for instance. Even that would be too brazen for enough of them that you couldn't get a majority vote. I do generally favor small government over large.

The same way with the cultural issues. Yeah, they're going to pass laws that try to prevent gays from marrying or women from getting abortions. But I also know that the courts are always there to put the breaks on that nonsense.

But let's say you're an African American citizen in this country. For 50 years the Democrats have been telling you that they're the ones who are going to make your life better. They're going to lift you out of poverty. They're going to end the racial injustice that exists. The same for the poor.

How have you done on that, by the way?

The ideals of the Democratic party are a thousand times better than those proposed by the Republican party. Of course. Who doesn't want racial harmony. Who doesn't want for all of us to be economically prosperous instead of just 1% of us.

But all you do is promise it. Then, when you don't deliver, you wonder why African Americans or poor white people don't turn out to vote for you in the election, or even worse, vote for Trump.

I don't vote for Republican candidates only. I vote strictly on whether I like the person or not, and more importantly, whether I think they're lying to me.

I voted for Franken, and would have done so again. In the last election I voted for the Democratic candidate for my congressional seat because I thought the Republican candidate was just plain dumb. But I didn't vote for Governor Dayton. I supported Tim Pawlenty. I voted for McCain, but then I voted for Obama against Romney.

Its good that you self reflect, but I can't agree with some of your logic.

I do not believe for a second that the GOP tells you they are going to screw you. How did Trump so many low income voters? Because he said he was going to screw them? No they don't tell anyone they're going to screw them...its just that you personally can see through the bs and most of the other GOP voters don't for one reason or another.

On the flip side, Dems do support these better ideals for which they stand - and typically don't willingly betray them as you allude. They support minimum wages, support affirmative action, support education. Do you think increased healthcare coverage was bad for the needy? I would say not. Remember all of these 'ideals' are sabotaged by the GOP at every turn - hence Obamacare is currently a shadow of what was proposed.

Both sides work with special interests - but don't blame the Dems more than the GOP because you have higher expectations for them.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Who doesn't want racial harmony. Who doesn't want for all of us to be economically prosperous instead of just 1% of us.

BSABSVR idiots like you that vote against it, for starters.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

The problem is Hovey mentions racial “harmony” which is not racial “equality”.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Its good that you self reflect, but I can't agree with some of your logic.

I do not believe for a second that the GOP tells you they are going to screw you. How did Trump so many low income voters? Because he said he was going to screw them? No they don't tell anyone they're going to screw them...its just that you personally can see through the bs and most of the other GOP voters don't for one reason or another.

On the flip side, Dems do support these better ideals for which they stand - and typically don't willingly betray them as you allude. They support minimum wages, support affirmative action, support education. Do you think increased healthcare coverage was bad for the needy? I would say not. Remember all of these 'ideals' are sabotaged by the GOP at every turn - hence Obamacare is currently a shadow of what was proposed.

Both sides work with special interests - but don't blame the Dems more than the GOP because you have higher expectations for them.

Then why does Trump have the lowest black unemployment since recorded? Why are less and less people on food stamps? Perhaps those "good Dems" really leave out their true intentions.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Then why does Trump have the lowest black unemployment since recorded? Why are less and less people on food stamps? Perhaps those "good Dems" really leave out their true intentions.

So you want to compare black unemployment rates? (which doesn't say much about specific policies that benefit them)

1992 black unemployment GOP Bush Sr. 14.2%
2000 black unemployment Dem Clinton 7.6%
2008 black unemployment GOP Bush Jr. 14.8%
2016 black unemployment Dem Obama 8%

I can give Trump credit for just over a point of black unemployment...which would be the only improvement in black unemployment tied to a GOP administration in 50 years.

 

[burd]

Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

So you want to compare black unemployment rates? (which doesn't say much about specific policies that benefit them)

1992 black unemployment GOP Bush Sr. 14.2%
2000 black unemployment Dem Clinton 7.6%
2008 black unemployment GOP Bush Jr. 14.8%
2016 black unemployment Dem Obama 8%

I can give Trump credit for just over a point of black unemployment...which would be the only improvement in black unemployment tied to a GOP administration in 50 years.

That'll send him running to Alex for direction, 5mn.

Think of that: People will pay you for colored water, AND you get to tell them what to think. It's better than oil: you never have to slow down production.