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The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

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Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

ScoobyDoo said:
The arrogance of rural communities that they think they can make it without cities is ridiculous. Not only that but many of them rely on labor that is against the law. Arrogant and short sighted, all of them.
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I lived in the middle of nowhere for 18 years. We lived just fine. We stayed within our means. We had our ways to solve problems. We were happy.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Not nec debating, just discussing with someone who has different points of view.

FlagDUDE08 said:
Living in an area that has a similar issue, the biggest problem that comes is that there are a lot of spending policies that the large cities want to spend on that aren't really a problem in the other parts of the state. Sure, the areas may have ways they think they can make up for it, including "shifting the problems" to the rural counties, but what it really does is creates unnecessary administrative expenses for the other counties
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Cities pay for rural areas typically. Do cities cost more to govern than rural areas...yeah, you bet. Do they generate income that more than makes up for it? Definitely. So they then send money and development funds off to rural counties. I'm not sure what 'problems' cities could even shift to rural counties.

Frankly the management of the urban economic engine requires deft governing. There are risks when the keys are handed to those who don't have any understanding of how it operates to drive it and/or just want to milk it.

The article I could find was regarding MN...but it illustrates the flow of money in our state. http://www.startribune.com/metro-vs...-most-taxes-and-which-get-most-aid/289629981/

FlagDUDE08 said:
That's why there was a push for "autonomous regions" in New York State as a sort of a way around it: They're still considered one state, but effectively have two separate governments, would likely each have one senator, and would split electoral votes.
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I think many would be cool with this - I would be. Let rural areas have their key social policies. But it works both ways. For example, make it a serious prison time crime to those who conceal and carry in the seven county metro area. Believe me...cities would allow rural areas quite a bit of autonomy for that alone.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

What value do cities produce outside of moving electrons?

Where are the factories, the farms?
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

5mn_Major said:
Agreed.

The New CA model relies on duping and then taking advantage of San Diego. Rural counties need to have San Diego to give them enough bodies to get them real representation. But then coupled with the conservatives that do live in SD, conservatives would outweigh the current liberal majority there - leaving it with conservative leadership. To make matters worse for the city...San Diego as with most major cities would earn the tax revenue that is needed to keep the rural counties afloat. A burden which would be placed much more squarely on SD rather than all the coastal cities today. Its really a version of political and economic gerrymandering.

Regardless...it remains in the 'never happenin' bucket.
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It's also cute they add in Contra Costa Country in an attempt to gain people and jobs when they would never actually go for it. I will give them credit, though, that map is better than their original one that also including Santa Clara County, which makes the current map look sane by comparison.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

French Rage said:
It's also cute they add in Contra Costa Country in an attempt to gain people and jobs when they would never actually go for it. I will give them credit, though, that map is better than their original one that also including Santa Clara County, which makes the current map look sane by comparison.
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Yeah. The county voted straight Dem in 2016. Hillary got about 3x the vote of Trump.

joecct said:
What value do cities produce outside of moving electrons?

Where are the factories, the farms?
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Not even close to taking that bait. :)
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

5mn_Major said:
Not nec debating, just discussing with someone who has different points of view.



Cities pay for rural areas typically. Do cities cost more to govern than rural areas...yeah, you bet. Do they generate income that more than makes up for it? Definitely. So they then send money and development funds off to rural counties. I'm not sure what 'problems' cities could even shift to rural counties.

Frankly the management of the urban economic engine requires deft governing. There are risks when the keys are handed to those who don't have any understanding of how it operates to drive it and/or just want to milk it.

The article I could find was regarding MN...but it illustrates the flow of money in our state. http://www.startribune.com/metro-vs...-most-taxes-and-which-get-most-aid/289629981/



I think many would be cool with this - I would be. Let rural areas have their key social policies. But it works both ways. For example, make it a serious prison time crime to those who conceal and carry in the seven county metro area. Believe me...cities would allow rural areas quite a bit of autonomy for that alone.
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In NYS, the city using the rest of the state has been quite the issue. One recent example is how tolls from the entire state are subsidizing the construction of the new Tappan Zee bridge; there was a similar protest that occurred in MA when westerners found that they were subsidizing the Big Dig (has that even been paid for yet?). There's also where a portion of CNY is going to be the garbage dump for NYC. Also include the [un]SAFE Act, now that you've brought up gun control, because that's also an issue around here. Let's also include the Adirondack Park Agency, which is a state agency instead of something local. A bunch of NYC hippies preventing a number of counties from coming into the 21st century, all while pushing environmental regulations that make it near impossible to live there because of development prevention.

What it all boils down to is entities that have oversight on too large of a footprint to be effective. I'm glad we can agree on transferring powers to smaller, more localized entities. And you know what? I'd definitely respect the laws of your home, especially if you respected the laws of mine.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

5mn_Major said:
Not nec debating, just discussing with someone who has different points of view.



Cities pay for rural areas typically. Do cities cost more to govern than rural areas...yeah, you bet. Do they generate income that more than makes up for it? Definitely. So they then send money and development funds off to rural counties. I'm not sure what 'problems' cities could even shift to rural counties.

Frankly the management of the urban economic engine requires deft governing. There are risks when the keys are handed to those who don't have any understanding of how it operates to drive it and/or just want to milk it.

The article I could find was regarding MN...but it illustrates the flow of money in our state. http://www.startribune.com/metro-vs...-most-taxes-and-which-get-most-aid/289629981/
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Than you for posting this, I kinda figured that's how it works but wasn't sure. You always hear morons from the surrounding suburbs/rural areas complain about the light rail and yet their suburb wouldn't even exist if not for the major city that has nice things like public transit and other programs that make it a viable place to live.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

trixR4kids said:
Than you for posting this, I kinda figured that's how it works but wasn't sure. You always hear morons from the surrounding suburbs/rural areas complain about the light rail and yet their suburb wouldn't even exist if not for the major city that has nice things like public transit and other programs that make it a viable place to live.
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Suburbs are a different animal in and of itself, because they have a direct relationship to the corresponding nearby city. However, if there are villages, cities, and hamlets that are self-sustaining in and of themselves, then why should they be forced to care about each other? What does Bemidji care about Minneapolis? What does Potsdam care about NYC? Sure, if the local communities want to interact with each other, then it makes some sense to have state oversight. But that doesn't mean some tyrannical despot should be allowed to just take everything over.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Suburbs are a different animal in and of itself, because they have a direct relationship to the corresponding nearby city. However, if there are villages, cities, and hamlets that are self-sustaining in and of themselves, then why should they be forced to care about each other? What does Bemidji care about Minneapolis? What does Potsdam care about NYC? Sure, if the local communities want to interact with each other, then it makes some sense to have state oversight. But that doesn't mean some tyrannical despot should be allowed to just take everything over.
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Try reading the article 5 MM just posted :D
 
trixR4kids said:
Try reading the article 5 MM just posted :D
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Yep. Good articles and probably sums up most states.

Question - does most of the income generated in the Twin Cities come from service related jobs while most of the income from outstate is farming/manufacturing?
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

I guarantee almost all money comes from within the 694/494 loop.

This road you’re trying to go down joe is a really stupid road.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
I guarantee almost all money comes from within the 694/494 loop.

This road you’re trying to go down joe is a really stupid road.
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I confess I like reading novels where the economy,the environment, or something (no alien invasions!) goes belly up.

People who come together to pool resources and efforts will do better. Most city folks after 3 days will riot.
 
joecct said:
I confess I like reading novels where the economy,the environment, or something (no alien invasions!) goes belly up.

People who come together to pool resources and efforts will do better. Most city folks after 3 days will riot.
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Ah, the suburban prepper fantasy: “If everything goes to crap we’ll be ok and you city folk will be screwed!”

Except if you’re going to band together it’s a heck of a lot better to band with thousands than ten. At best.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Jimjamesak said:
Ah, the suburban prepper fantasy: “If everything goes to crap we’ll be ok and you city folk will be screwed!”

Except if you’re going to band together it’s a heck of a lot better to band with thousands than ten. At best.
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Yeah but it's 10 people with shared heritage. If it does all go to hell, they can re-start with a "pure" crop.
 
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