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The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Cost of living/inflation says otherwise.
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Those crappy jobs are for entry level, to either get you promoted higher within that company, or to get experience for a better job. Make no mistake, they are honest jobs, and I don't look down on them whatsoever (I worked many). However, it's not meant to be a job to make your living off of, and requires little skill. Those are facts.
 
The Rube said:
Some states are moving a bit quicker. A big question is, other employers are not going to raise their pay relative to min wage. So if one is getting paid, say, $20/hour now, they will probably not get their wages moved up as the min gets moved up.

If I were getting paid $17/hour doing what I do, but I could do MUCH less for $15/hour? And get same benefits in general? I might make that switch. Less stress, etc.
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Oh, absolutely there are going to be issues like that. But, for the Chicagoland region, the pay bump has already been in effect. Chicago proper is already $12/hr (and going to $13/hr July 1st) and Cook County (where Chicago is inside of) has a minimum wage of $11/hr.

So, a business working in the city limits of Chicago has six years to get to $15/hr. (~2.67% pay increases each year for six years, 3% is usually standard).

Cook County employers have 6% yearly pay increases to give to meet the new goal.

Rural Illinois is going to get hit "the worst," with this law; but it will also be an improvement for those folks living conditions. This might also cause some flight from the suburbs as people would be willing to live a little further out of the suburbs and drive in to work because of the pay bump.


Like I said, I dont know if 15 is right, but I think Cook County and Chicago are closest to where the state should have been anyway.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

aparch said:
Oh, absolutely there are going to be issues like that. But, for the Chicagoland region, the pay bump has already been in effect. Chicago proper is already $12/hr (and going to $13/hr July 1st) and Cook County (where Chicago is inside of) has a minimum wage of $11/hr.

So, a business working in the city limits of Chicago has six years to get to $15/hr. (~2.67% pay increases each year for six years, 3% is usually standard).

Cook County employers have 6% yearly pay increases to give to meet the new goal.

Rural Illinois is going to get hit "the worst," with this law; but it will also be an improvement for those folks living conditions. This might also cause some flight from the suburbs as people would be willing to live a little further out of the suburbs and drive in to work because of the pay bump.


Like I said, I dont know if 15 is right, but I think Cook County and Chicago are closest to where the state should have been anyway.
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FTR, I'm in a good position due to retirement and benefits. I'm not in "danger" of switching, but if I were a newbie...I'd give it some thought (some stuff I have been grandfathered in; 17+ years with same company).
 
The Rube said:
Some states are moving a bit quicker. A big question is, other employers are not going to raise their pay relative to min wage. So if one is getting paid, say, $20/hour now, they will probably not get their wages moved up as the min gets moved up.

If I were getting paid $17/hour doing what I do, but I could do MUCH less for $15/hour? And get same benefits in general? I might make that switch. Less stress, etc.
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This is an argument every time the minimum wage is raised. The aggregate effects on inflation and unemployment are minimal. Yes, you'll be able to find anecdotes of random people affected, but overall things like the price of oil matter more.

And for the record, if minimum wage had merely kept up with inflation since the 60s, it'd be at $12/hr already.
 
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The Rube said:
Those crappy jobs are for entry level, to either get you promoted higher within that company, or to get experience for a better job. Make no mistake, they are honest jobs, and I don't look down on them whatsoever (I worked many). However, it's not meant to be a job to make your living off of, and requires little skill. Those are facts.
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I am not a fan of this point of view because it essentially argues that certain people deserve to live in poverty. Some simply do not have the skills and/or are not in an environment privy to doing anything besides making burgers or stocking the Walmart shelves. Those people still deserve an adequate standard of living.

The general population is not suddenly going to stop striving for progress simply because working at the Golden Arches will finally earn enough to not be on food stamps. No one will be stopping themselves from becoming an accountant or engineer or lawyer because they could be making 30k manning the register. The entry level jobs aren’t going to magically become fun and cause people to stop wanting more mentally or physically stimulating professions. All we want is for the people who have to work those jobs to have a decent life.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Spartanforlife4 said:
I am not a fan of this point of view because it essentially argues that certain people deserve to live in poverty. Some simply do not have the skills and/or are not in an environment privy to doing anything besides making burgers or stocking the Walmart shelves. Those people still deserve an adequate standard of living.

The general population is not suddenly going to stop striving for progress simply because working at the Golden Arches will finally earn enough to not be on food stamps. No one will be stopping themselves from becoming an accountant or engineer or lawyer because they could be making 30k manning the register. The entry level jobs aren’t going to magically become fun and cause people to stop wanting more mentally or physically stimulating professions. All we want is for the people who have to work those jobs to have a decent life.
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I can't agree with that point of view. They might not have the skills *yet*, which is what the entry levels jobs are for. That's where you learn and expand your skill set: flipping burgers teaches you organization, when it comes down to it. Sitting at the register teaches you people skills and customer service. That sort of thing.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

The Rube said:
Those crappy jobs are for entry level, to either get you promoted higher within that company, or to get experience for a better job. Make no mistake, they are honest jobs, and I don't look down on them whatsoever (I worked many). However, it's not meant to be a job to make your living off of, and requires little skill. Those are facts.
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No they arent facts. Those jobs may have started out that way (and they didnt but I will indulge you) but in the real world plenty of people are working those jobs because they are out of work and cant find good employment. That is why when people post stupid crap on Facebook about McDonalds workers making $15 an hour I want to slap them across the face.

There is no job that can be worked 40 hours a week that should not pay a livable wage. That is the fact. It isnt like that is an exorbitant amount of money. All these restaurants and bars crying foul sound as stupid as they did when they said the smoking ban would destroy their businesses.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

The Rube said:
I can't agree with that point of view. They might not have the skills *yet*, which is what the entry levels jobs are for. That's where you learn and expand your skill set: flipping burgers teaches you organization, when it comes down to it. Sitting at the register teaches you people skills and customer service. That sort of thing.
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You understand that it isnt just young kids that work entry level jobs right? Been to a Target lately it is mostly older people working the crud jobs. Been to a fast food joint the last few years it aint just kids taking your order.

That is the problem with your point of you (and the people who whine about it on Facebook) they forget that plenty of adults in bad situations work those jobs to feed their friggin kids. How are they going to get more skills?

And as uno said, if the MW had just kept up with inflation it would be $12 right now anyways.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Handyman said:
You understand that it isnt just young kids that work entry level jobs right? Been to a Target lately it is mostly older people working the crud jobs. Been to a fast food joint the last few years it aint just kids taking your order.

That is the problem with your point of you (and the people who whine about it on Facebook) they forget that plenty of adults in bad situations work those jobs to feed their friggin kids. How are they going to get more skills?

And as uno said, if the MW had just kept up with inflation it would be $12 right now anyways.
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There is a big difference between $15 and $12.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Yeah the first is a bare minimum livable wage in most cities and the other isn't.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

The Rube said:
There is a big difference between $15 and $12.
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There really isnt...and since most places arent going to $15 yet anyways it is a strawman. The large corporations that seem to hate this the most wont even feel it on their bottom line. And they get no sympathy from me they have been lobbying against this crap forever. If they had just allowed for raises as cost of living went up (or if they had just paid people better) none of this would be a problem. It will hit small businesses like my buddy's...but there are ways to get that back rather quickly.

Why do people who have to work these jobs deserve to NOT make a living wage? Leaving aside the kids that people like you Dillo seem to think should never make fair money...my father was working at Target just last year. He is highly skilled but other factors wont get him hired for "better jobs" but yet Target was paying him under what the COL was. I was looking for jobs just a couple years ago and I am highly skilled in multiple fields...the compensation for said jobs has been depressed beyond belief. Hell I have a Masters Degree now and it STILL is depressed in many fields. That isnt do to skill and it certainly isnt due to the minimum wage...it is due to one thing GREED.

I lived in Seattle when they started to roll out the $15 minimum wage...it hurt nothing. Hell I think they started it with like $13 at the airport (and there were the usual cries like the ones you are making) and nothing really changed. Well that isnt true, the workers were happier...but who really cares about those lowly fools.

Dont buy the hype and dont buy the propaganda...the short term hurt will lead to very long term gains.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Handyman said:
There really isnt...and since most places arent going to $15 yet anyways it is a strawman. The large corporations that seem to hate this the most wont even feel it on their bottom line. And they get no sympathy from me they have been lobbying against this crap forever. If they had just allowed for raises as cost of living went up (or if they had just paid people better) none of this would be a problem. It will hit small businesses like my buddy's...but there are ways to get that back rather quickly.

Why do people who have to work these jobs deserve to NOT make a living wage? Leaving aside the kids that people like you Dillo seem to think should never make fair money...my father was working at Target just last year. He is highly skilled but other factors wont get him hired for "better jobs" but yet Target was paying him under what the COL was. I was looking for jobs just a couple years ago and I am highly skilled in multiple fields...the compensation for said jobs has been depressed beyond belief. Hell I have a Masters Degree now and it STILL is depressed in many fields. That isnt do to skill and it certainly isnt due to the minimum wage...it is due to one thing GREED.

I lived in Seattle when they started to roll out the $15 minimum wage...it hurt nothing. Hell I think they started it with like $13 at the airport (and there were the usual cries like the ones you are making) and nothing really changed. Well that isnt true, the workers were happier...but who really cares about those lowly fools.

Dont buy the hype and dont buy the propaganda...the short term hurt will lead to very long term gains.
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Good post. I also have a Master's Degree. Doesn't mean much.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

ScoobyDoo said:
Good post. I also have a Master's Degree. Doesn't mean much.
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I am lucky, since I teach in the State System so I am getting my MBA for free. Right now that is about the only thing that will help me if and when this adjunct faculty thing fizzles out.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Handyman said:
I am lucky, since I teach in the State System so I am getting my MBA for free. Right now that is about the only thing that will help me if and when this adjunct faculty thing fizzles out.
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I paid out of pocket for my Master's. Didn't really do anything for me. Probably my fault it didn't but I got it in '07 and the entire economy and my bank account went belly up in '08. Made me extremely skittish about the market (jobs, and economy). Just stayed where I am. I make my own hours pretty much and have tons of vacation time. I also for the most part like what I'm doing. I get to talk to a lot of people at a lot of other companies that are in positions in my field and I don't want the job they have. I'm in the wrong profession if you want real self actualization in your life. Came to terms with that about 5 years ago.
 
Brent, your big problem is that this:
The Rube said:
Make no mistake, they are honest jobs, and I don't look down on them whatsoever (I worked many).
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Does not line up with this:
The Rube said:
Those crappy jobs are for entry level, to either get you promoted higher within that company, or to get experience for a better job... However, it's not meant to be a job to make your living off of, and requires little skill. Those are facts.
Click to expand...

Is not very consistent to say “I don’t look down on them” and then immediately look down on them and say they don’t deserve a living wage.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

^^^

Rube, time to take the L, admit you don't really care about unskilled labor, and move on.
 
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