The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

God expects us to be perfect, as Adam and Eve were before the fall, and as He is as always. Anything short of perfection is not acceptable, so why does it matter if you are 1% short of perfection or 99% short of perfection? It' just like a pass/fail course. The beauty of it all is Jesus wipes the slate of sins clean for the repentant believer, so it doesn't matter if you are 1% short or 99% short.

So you may not agree, but I don't read it that way. Humans are not perfect and can't be perfect. It is impossible. So I don't think the right way to think about this is that there are impossible expectations to have all your outcomes be perfect...but then when they aren't, you are forgiven 100% no problem because Jesus died for you. How is that constructive to get any of Jesus' outcomes?

So when Jesus says 'be perfect', I believe He means 'aim to be perfect'. Saying 'be perfect' just sets the bar higher to say 'no try harder than that'. Because I am pretty sure God knows that we cannot not possibly be perfect.

I believe the broader message is not whether the outcome is that you're perfect, but that you do everything you possibly can to do as he recommends (turn the other cheek, etc). And as a believer, you should in fact try to forget Jesus died for our sins and never rely on that.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

However, there were times I did put my foot down, and she, recognizing that when I put my foot down, it was THAT important to me, took heed. It's a balance, IMO. You just have to find it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, here. "Putting one's foot down" should derive from the importance that you assign a given thing -- "this is a deal-breaker," which will alternate between the spouses based on what they consider to be significant. It has nothing to do with gender. Unless of course for the man EVERYTHING is a deal breaker, in which case I'd advise the woman to find a better man.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Well is it or isn't it?

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/mullarkey/2015/09/reinhard-marx-agony-uncle

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That is a wonderful column.

And yes it is. Of course.

Also, thanks for the hat tip to this.

 

[joecct]

That is a wonderful column.

And yes it is. Of course.

Also, thanks for the hat tip to this.

Part 2

http://corbiniansbear.blogspot.com/2015/08/dear-reinhard-2-plot-thickens.html?m=1

 

[aygwm2]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'm currently reading a biography on Saul Bellow and also reading his fiction starting at the beginning. I've read a number of his novels in the past, but never the first two.

Just completed Dangling Man, so I picked up The Victim from the library today. As I'm reading the introduction within the second paragraph it goes like this:

"The Victim is certainly no a comedy, except from some unimaginably Olympian vantage point. It does contain one first-class joke. * (Then the footnote with the joke)

* "They tell a story about a little town in the old country. It was out of the way, in a valley, so the Jews were afraid the Messiah would come and miss them. So, they built a high tower and hired one of the town beggars to sit in it all day long. A friend of his meets this beggar and he says, 'How do you like your job, Baruch?' So he says, ' It doesn't pay much, but I think it's steady work.'"

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Guess I'd say skeptic 'adultery with a prostitute' wit isn't all that. But its probably not written for mass consumption.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Uh oh.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

God expects us to be perfect, as Adam and Eve were before the fall, and as He is as always. Anything short of perfection is not acceptable, so why does it matter if you are 1% short of perfection or 99% short of perfection? It' just like a pass/fail course. The beauty of it all is Jesus wipes the slate of sins clean for the repentant believer, so it doesn't matter if you are 1% short or 99% short.

The law expects you to obey it 100% of the time. Parents expect their kids to obey them 100% of the time. Teachers expect their students to obey them 100% of the time. But no one does, because we're human. That's also why various imperfections have various punishments. You're not going to be expelled for being late to class once. Your parents aren't going to kick you out of the house for being a smart *** one time. The law isn't going to execute you for speeding.

If God is perfect, then he would have to be fair and just (since an unfair or unjust god is inherently imperfect). A God that treats a 99.9% as a 0 is not just, so why the hell would we worship such a God?

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Being quiet......I think the angle there is that being quiet is in regards to the topic, which is having authority over men.

As far as original sin goes, Eve did get tricked by the Devil and she did give the fruit to Adam (who is not blameless of course). God seems to be backing up what he said in Genesis 3:16.......To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

That's a unique angle, since most anti-abortion people believe childbearing to be a blessing of the miracle of life. Now you're telling me the Bible is saying God used it to punish women because of Eve?

Also, even limiting it to just the pain of birth as the punishment, punishing all women in perpetuity for Eve's sin strikes me as unjust, which goes back to point 1 above. Why should any woman worship a God that punishes them for something they didn't do?

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'm currently reading a biography on Saul Bellow and also reading his fiction starting at the beginning. I've read a number of his novels in the past, but never the first two.

Just completed Dangling Man, so I picked up The Victim from the library today. As I'm reading the introduction within the second paragraph it goes like this:

"The Victim is certainly no a comedy, except from some unimaginably Olympian vantage point. It does contain one first-class joke. * (Then the footnote with the joke)

* "They tell a story about a little town in the old country. It was out of the way, in a valley, so the Jews were afraid the Messiah would come and miss them. So, they built a high tower and hired one of the town beggars to sit in it all day long. A friend of his meets this beggar and he says, 'How do you like your job, Baruch?' So he says, ' It doesn't pay much, but I think it's steady work.'"

I did not read Saul Bellow, amazingly, until I was 21. I was wandering across country by motorcycle with no destination and just decided to pull off the road in a town in the middle south and get work. A library. Since my work was not overly challenging and I was a complete stranger to the place and the people, I had a lot of time to read, which I did. An old jewish patron who had excellent (and voracious) reading habits recommended Bellow. That discovery (Augie March first, I believe) came at a perfect time in my life. I also got turned on to Thomas Wolfe, which was also timely for me. It was a special time for an unsophisticated Midwestern hayseed.

And, btw, because this is a religion thread, it being in the middle south, bible thumpers would often knock on my door. I had time and was curious, so I sometimes let them in. I found that many of those folks, more than the Lutherans and Catholics I had grown up around, took their bible scholarship seriously. And I enjoyed those discussions and formed some good but slightly odd friendships as a result of them. Never went to a tent revival though.

 

[aygwm2]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I did not read Saul Bellow, amazingly, until I was 21. I was wandering across country by motorcycle with no destination and just decided to pull off the road in a town in the middle south and get work. A library. Since my work was not overly challenging and I was a complete stranger to the place and the people, I had a lot of time to read, which I did. An old jewish patron who had excellent (and voracious) reading habits recommended Bellow. That discovery (Augie March first, I believe) came at a perfect time in my life. I also got turned on to Thomas Wolfe, which was also timely for me. It was a special time for an unsophisticated Midwestern hayseed.

And, btw, because this is a religion thread, it being in the middle south, bible thumpers would often knock on my door. I had time and was curious, so I sometimes let them in. I found that many of those folks, more than the Lutherans and Catholics I had grown up around, took their bible scholarship seriously. And I enjoyed those discussions and formed some good but slightly odd friendships as a result of them. Never went to a tent revival though.

Thanks for that. I first read Bellow in college (1980 or so, I was on the 5 year plus plan) and Henderson the Rain King was on the syllabus. I did a paper that semester comparing and contrasting Eugene Henderson of HtRK and Will Barrett of Walker Percy's The Second Coming which had just come out in 1980.

You might like the southern writer Walker Percy (wikipedia page). As this is the "religion thread", others might as well; Percy was a "Catholic writer."

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[while] most anti-abortion people believe childbearing to be a blessing of the miracle of life. Now you're telling me the Bible is saying God used it to punish women because of Eve?

if I recall the source material correctly, childbirth in and of itself was not painful, it is merely that childbirth only became painful after The Fall.

Also, even limiting it to just the pain of birth as the punishment, punishing all women in perpetuity for Eve's sin strikes me as unjust, which goes back to point 1 above. Why should any woman worship a God that punishes them for something they didn't do?

Funny that all of a sudden you are a Biblical literalist! The story of the fall from Grace is viewed by most as a metaphor for the human condition. Why is the entire human race of both genders "punished" for all of time merely for one transgression? It lays the groundwork for forgiveness and redemption. We are all fallible yet we are all worth saving, the paradox of the human condition. We all through Eve consumed the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which gave us free will, and the pain and suffering that accompany bad choices.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

if I recall the source material correctly, childbirth in and of itself was not painful, it is merely that childbirth only became painful after The Fall.

That's how I understood it.

Interestingly, one reason from the real world that childbirth is so painful is we walk upright, while the babymaking parts are a legacy of our monkey lineage. It is fascinating that Eve is punished for the terrible transgression of seeking knowledge and her punishment is intimately related to our advance as a species beyond its animal origins. Thinking for oneself, particularly for a woman, turns out to be the mortal enemy of divine command, just as one would expect.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

if I recall the source material correctly, childbirth in and of itself was not painful, it is merely that childbirth only became painful after The Fall.



Funny that all of a sudden you are a Biblical literalist! The story of the fall from Grace is viewed by most as a metaphor for the human condition. Why is the entire human race of both genders "punished" for all of time merely for one transgression? It lays the groundwork for forgiveness and redemption. We are all fallible yet we are all worth saving, the paradox of the human condition. We all through Eve consumed the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which gave us free will, and the pain and suffering that accompany bad choices.

Silly question, but worth saving from what?

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Silly question, but worth saving from what?

From the dreaded Metaphor!

 

[unofan]

Funny that all of a sudden you are a Biblical literalist!

Gee, once again you can't follow the context of a conversation. Color me shocked...

Nice to see that you apparently agree a literal interpretation of the bible is insane, however. Maybe you should take that up with the actual biblical literalists on here.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

if I recall the source material correctly, childbirth in and of itself was not painful, it is merely that childbirth only became painful after The Fall.

But Adam and Eve did not have kids until after the Fall, so how would they know if it hurt or not?

Paging Maimonides.....

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

As I stated to UNO, the being quiet and submissive is in regards to women having authority over men. I would extend that that to women having authority over men in regards to the activities related to the Church and teaching doctrine, however, the correlation to male/female authority in the workplace I have not thought much about. I need to do some further research on that.

Research results....1 Timothy is basically instructions to young Pastor Tim on how to conduct himself and perform ministerial work, so what is recorded in that book has nothing to do with the male/female workplace relationships. UNO can continue her fine leadership men in the workplace with no fear of afterlife consequences.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So you may not agree, but I don't read it that way. Humans are not perfect and can't be perfect. It is impossible. So I don't think the right way to think about this is that there are impossible expectations to have all your outcomes be perfect...but then when they aren't, you are forgiven 100% no problem because Jesus died for you. How is that constructive to get any of Jesus' outcomes?

So when Jesus says 'be perfect', I believe He means 'aim to be perfect'. Saying 'be perfect' just sets the bar higher to say 'no try harder than that'. Because I am pretty sure God knows that we cannot not possibly be perfect.

I believe the broader message is not whether the outcome is that you're perfect, but that you do everything you possibly can to do as he recommends (turn the other cheek, etc). And as a believer, you should in fact try to forget Jesus died for our sins and never rely on that.

God does know we can't be perfect due to our original sin (sinful natures), but he does expect us to be perfect, as Adam and Eve were made in his perfect image, but their perfection was destroyed by the fall, therefore he sent Jesus to be punished and die on the cross as our substitute.

I strongly disagree on the point of intentionally not remembering that Jesus died for my sins. When I think about what he did for me (dying on the cross), I get motivation from that. Motivation to give thanks for what he did via my prayers and worship, to do good works for others, to resist sinful actions that I contemplate doing, and when I do sin to feel shame that I betrayed his desires for me to be perfect, then I ask for forgiveness and repent and try to turn away and flee from that sin.

I think maybe what you are getting at is some use Jesus' death and resurrection as a crutch? I think if you use His death as a crutch, then you are not truly sorry and repentant of your sins, if that was what you were getting at.

 

[unofan]

Research results....1 Timothy is basically instructions to young Pastor Tim on how to conduct himself and perform ministerial work, so what is recorded in that book has nothing to do with the male/female workplace relationships. UNO can continue her fine leadership men in the workplace with no fear of afterlife consequences.

Well, I gotta say, that's the first time in my life I've ever been confused for a women. Who knew that merely sticking up for my wife (and women in general) would cause that impression..