The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[XYZ]

God does know we can't be perfect due to our original sin (sinful natures), but he does expect us to be perfect, as Adam and Eve were made in his perfect image, but their perfection was destroyed by the fall, therefore he sent Jesus to be punished and die on the cross as our substitute.

I strongly disagree on the point of intentionally not remembering that Jesus died for my sins. When I think about what he did for me (dying on the cross), I get motivation from that. Motivation to give thanks for what he did via my prayers and worship, to do good works for others, to resist sinful actions that I contemplate doing, and when I do sin to feel shame that I betrayed his desires for me to be perfect, then I ask for forgiveness and repent and try to turn away and flee from that sin.

I think maybe what you are getting at is some use Jesus' death and resurrection as a crutch? I think if you use His death as a crutch, then you are not truly sorry and repentant of your sins, if that was what you were getting at.

No, what everyone is getting at is the fact your premise(s) is/are wrong. Trying to frame something on merits other than those established by observable reality is the act of a pig.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Timothy A has been unfailingly polite, generous with his explanations, and has refrained from snark in all his of contributions here. He represents exchange of ideas on this forum at its best. Please do not attack him personally.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

No, what everyone is getting at is the fact your premise(s) is/are wrong. Trying to frame something on merits other than those established by observable reality is the act of a pig.

Only if you believe that living by faith is "piggish" i.e. sub-human (On which there are opinions other than your own, believe it or not)
Hebrews 11:1

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

God does know we can't be perfect due to our original sin (sinful natures), but he does expect us to be perfect, as Adam and Eve were made in his perfect image, but their perfection was destroyed by the fall, therefore he sent Jesus to be punished and die on the cross as our substitute.

I strongly disagree on the point of intentionally not remembering that Jesus died for my sins. When I think about what he did for me (dying on the cross), I get motivation from that. Motivation to give thanks for what he did via my prayers and worship, to do good works for others, to resist sinful actions that I contemplate doing, and when I do sin to feel shame that I betrayed his desires for me to be perfect, then I ask for forgiveness and repent and try to turn away and flee from that sin.

I think maybe what you are getting at is some use Jesus' death and resurrection as a crutch? I think if you use His death as a crutch, then you are not truly sorry and repentant of your sins, if that was what you were getting at.

It certainly does create a bit of a paradox, though: If the only Son died for our sins, doesn't that mean it's an excuse to get away with whatever you want because you're going to be forgiven anyway, similar to what you wrote in your last paragraph?

This is one of the reasons I don't believe in apologies, apologising, or accepting apologies. The only thing I will ever accept is a commitment against the repetition of said ill-mannered activity in the eyes of any party. Talk is cheap when it comes to that, too. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to truly exhibit Christian values, then practice what is said at the end of service time: "Go in peace to love and serve the Lord." Do some of us hold grudges? Certainly. Prove your ability to improve, and that is your true forgiveness.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

No, what everyone is getting at is the fact your premise(s) is/are wrong. Trying to frame something on merits other than those established by observable reality is the act of a pig.

One's perception of "observable reality" has to be based on sort form of merit. Even if it is completely and measurably objective, it's still a merit.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Well, I gotta say, that's the first time in my life I've ever been confused for a women. Who knew that merely sticking up for my wife (and women in general) would cause that impression..

Oh that's funny. I certainly got the impression that either you were a women or I confused you with another poster. At any rate, please accept my sincere apology.

Timothy A has been unfailingly polite, generous with his explanations, and has refrained from snark in all his of contributions here. He represents exchange of ideas on this forum at its best. Please do not attack him personally.

Thanks for the kind words, I'm not here to convince anyone that they are wrong, I'm just here to represent what I feel is right in my beliefs. I enjoy the open and mostly friendly discussion. This site has the most reasonable posters by far that I frequent.

It certainly does create a bit of a paradox, though: If the only Son died for our sins, doesn't that mean it's an excuse to get away with whatever you want because you're going to be forgiven anyway, similar to what you wrote in your last paragraph?

This is one of the reasons I don't believe in apologies, apologising, or accepting apologies. The only thing I will ever accept is a commitment against the repetition of said ill-mannered activity in the eyes of any party. Talk is cheap when it comes to that, too. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to truly exhibit Christian values, then practice what is said at the end of service time: "Go in peace to love and serve the Lord." Do some of us hold grudges? Certainly. Prove your ability to improve, and that is your true forgiveness.

You are only forgiven if you are truly sorry and repentant, meaning that you will not continue to do the same sinful activities over and over again (basically agreeing with your talk is cheap, action mean everything viewpoint). If one believes you are saved no matter how you act and conduct yourself, as long as you accept Christ as your savior, one is mistaken. An unrepentant sinner is a dammed sinner. When I was younger, I did do the same pathetic sins over and over, then at one point a light when on and I realized that I had to change, I had to embrace repentance, which I have done. Now sure I still have weak moments that I am not proud of, but when I pull myself out of that situation, the guilt is heavy and the betrayal real, and it motivates me to flee from that sin. I am getting stronger as I get older, but I also realize that I need to avoid the prospect of that situation all together, and focus that energy on parts of my life that are God pleasing. I know that I am an imperfect sinner, but I know that as long as I try my level best and then some to stay on the straight road (while fully accepting all points of the Apostle's Creed), I know I'll be God in heaven.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Its good to have the engagement.

You are only forgiven if you are truly sorry and repentant, meaning that you will not continue to do the same sinful activities over and over again (basically agreeing with your talk is cheap, action mean everything viewpoint). An unrepentant sinner is a dammed sinner.

Here's the trick. This is IMO where self proclaimed Christians go astray. Relying on 'Jesus dying for our sins' leads some Christians to get a sense of entitlement and either ignore the implications of sin and/or become 'preachy' about the correct approach. As this is counter to the cornerstone of the Jesus message, they really leave the Walk. Because often they say louder than anyone else that they're Christians...it opens the whole faith up to criticism and calls of hypocrisy. When this happens, the perception in some circles of the true nature of Christianity gets perverted a little bit more.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Its good to have the engagement.



Here's the trick. This is IMO where self proclaimed Christians go astray. Relying on 'Jesus dying for our sins' leads some Christians to get a sense of entitlement and either ignore the implications of sin and/or become 'preachy' about the correct approach. As this is counter to the cornerstone of the Jesus message, they really leave the Walk. Because often they say louder than anyone else that they're Christians...it opens the whole faith up to criticism and calls of hypocrisy. When this happens, the perception in some circles of the true nature of Christianity gets perverted a little bit more.

Everyone has a moral sense of right and wrong, whether they derive it from divine right, some governing body, or even just what makes them and those around them happy. Since the dawn of time, some set of beliefs (whether you call it religion or some other secular term) have been a guiding principle of community, sadly sometimes to the extreme of scaring people into them (i.e. the whole "You're going to hell if you don't do this, this, and this" concept). The Roman Empire was clearly Catholicism's downfall, as was the Ottomans for Islam, the British Empire for the Anglican sect of Christianity, the list just goes on, and repentance typically goes out the window with them as well, because you're using the beliefs as a means of control.

True religious freedom is respecting another person's moral belief set, regardless of how they get it, and going in peace to practice those beliefs. Conflicts arise when there is a dispute between two or more different sets of beliefs that contradict in some way, and that will obviously result in one receiving precedence over the other, whether by adaptation or the ruling of a party, the latter of which is what sadly gives religion such a bad reputation. However, if you are loyal to your set of morals and beliefs, you will find joy in life, as well as whatever sort of afterlife is contained within your beliefs, if any.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So a state religion leads to the religion's downfall? Interesting hypothesis.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Everyone has a moral sense of right and wrong, whether they derive it from divine right, some governing body, or even just what makes them and those around them happy. Since the dawn of time, some set of beliefs (whether you call it religion or some other secular term) have been a guiding principle of community, sadly sometimes to the extreme of scaring people into them (i.e. the whole "You're going to hell if you don't do this, this, and this" concept). The Roman Empire was clearly Catholicism's downfall, as was the Ottomans for Islam, the British Empire for the Anglican sect of Christianity, the list just goes on, and repentance typically goes out the window with them as well, because you're using the beliefs as a means of control.

True religious freedom is respecting another person's moral belief set, regardless of how they get it, and going in peace to practice those beliefs. Conflicts arise when there is a dispute between two or more different sets of beliefs that contradict in some way, and that will obviously result in one receiving precedence over the other, whether by adaptation or the ruling of a party, the latter of which is what sadly gives religion such a bad reputation. However, if you are loyal to your set of morals and beliefs, you will find joy in life, as well as whatever sort of afterlife is contained within your beliefs, if any.

This whole post is kind of... brilliant. Which is a little spooky. Want to tell us about "chemtrails" or something?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

But Adam and Eve did not have kids until after the Fall, so how would they know if it hurt or not?

That isn't quite clear....Genesis 3:16 in varying translations is along the lines of

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

So if He will "greatly multiply" the pain, that might very well imply that Eve had been through childbirth already, no?

That also might help account for where Cain's wife came from, as it seems like Cain was the first child born to Adam and Eve after The Fall (though the idea of every one of Adam and Eve's children having incestuous relationships with their siblings is a little weird...maybe incest only became a problem after The Fall as well??)

The other part of the line that I never noticed before is how, as part of her "punishment," Eve becomes subservient to Adam ("he will rule over you"), also suggesting that before The Fall he did not. So woman's original natural state was as partner and equal.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So a state religion leads to the religion's downfall? Interesting hypothesis.

A state religion greatly increases the likelihood of people merely paying lip service to religion without actually believing it or following it. That was part of Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisees.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Trying to frame something on merits other than those established by observable reality is the act of a pig.

Is magnetism an observable reality or do we infer magnetism exists by watching the way metals behave when influenced by it?

Quite a lot of "observable" reality is not actually "observed" at all; yet it is widely accepted anyway because we infer it from indirect influences. You cannot "observe" gravity either, you can only observe the effects gravity has on mass. yet we believe in gravity anyway because it is such a useful explanation for what we do see.

If one takes your response at face value, quite a few scientists are pigs!

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So a state religion leads to the religion's downfall? Interesting hypothesis.

Back when Andrew Sullivan was still interesting he used to write about a thesis that has currency among Tories that the state religions in England and Scandinavia guard against nutbarism. On the one hand, the believers get special status which mollifies them. On the other, nobody takes it seriously so freedom of conscience is de facto. It's a little like the joke about Baptists in heaven: "shhh... they think they're the only ones here."

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

A state religion greatly increases the likelihood of people merely paying lip service to religion without actually believing it or following it. That was part of Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisees.

Even without a state mandate, I see a lot of practicing Christians every day who struggle with their self-proclaimed creed. I understand this is common and not necessarily a barrier to heaven, but it seems that many struggle more than their peers. Do you think a majority act this way? Based on my observations, I certainly do.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That isn't quite clear....Genesis 3:16 in varying translations is along the lines of

So if He will "greatly multiply" the pain, that might very well imply that Eve had been through childbirth already, no?

That also might help account for where Cain's wife came from, as it seems like Cain was the first child born to Adam and Eve after The Fall (though the idea of every one of Adam and Eve's children having incestuous relationships with their siblings is a little weird...maybe incest only became a problem after The Fall as well??)

The other part of the line that I never noticed before is how, as part of her "punishment," Eve becomes subservient to Adam ("he will rule over you"), also suggesting that before The Fall he did not. So woman's original natural state was as partner and equal.

You're guessing, aren't you?

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I know I've posted this before:

Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the **** that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier...


There within lies my belief. I know I'm going to mess up. And I won't try to do that mistake again. I try, and yes, at times I will fail. But I think effort is the key. How good is your soul? That's my idea/belief/whatever. God has my back, as long as I try to do good. I believe the same for others. Whatever religion/idol you want to follow? It's all the same in the end. You believe (or don't believe) in a higher power. Just try and be the best person you can be. Can't the world just have that effort? Pretty simple request, if you ask me.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Just try and be the best person you can be. Can't the world just have that effort? Pretty simple request, if you ask me.

That's all I'm asking for, and personally I'll take the guy who comes through even if he believes in Russell's teapot over the guy who doesn't who's ontologically correct. It don't mean a thing if it aint got that ethical swing.

As I've said before, if it's pixies that keep you from acting like an a-hole, than I'm all for you keeping your belief in pixies.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That's all I'm asking for, and personally I'll take the guy who comes through even if he believes in Russell's teapot over the guy who doesn't who's ontologically correct. It don't mean a thing if it aint got that ethical swing.

As I've said before, if it's pixies that keep you from acting like an a-hole, than I'm all for you keeping your belief in pixies.

But if you claim to believe in pixies, you have to be honest about it. None of "I am only good because of my belief in (insert idol/god)" crap. You really have to have a good heart/soul/intention.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

But if you claim to believe in pixies, you have to be honest about it. None of "I am only good because of my belief in (insert idol/god)" crap. You really have to have a good heart/soul/intention.

I'm going farther than that. I don't really care whether your morality is purely instrumental -- if you're a sociopath at heart but the fear of Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, trees, mushrooms, or Isadora Duncan keeps you from dismembering the neighbor's kid, then good for you, you've found a Working Solution. You can have the rottenest soul on the planet and if your superstitions prevent you from acting on it then I'm all for you never bothering your head about truth.