What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

I wouldn't change employer coverage right now. Concentrate on the people who aren't insured.

nope. strength in numbers. need everyone in the pie and then a big stick. if you don't include mookie he ain't giving a chit. and you need him.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Yeah, I don't think you need to worry about this.

In my ideal America (which is to say, the US in the mid 60s), you're a centrist Rockefeller Republican. You are fully welcome in today's party and hey, the more the merrier! But I don't think anybody is going to confuse you with a liberal.

Great, but for once the discussion isn't about me (**** its hard being so popular. good thing I'm used to it). I see "health care" as broken into 4 parts:

1) The Gubmint: Medicare/Medicaid/VA/Govt employees
2) Employer coverage
3) Private insurance, including the ACA exchanges
4) Uninsured

Under my plan you leave #2 alone. #1 pretty much takes over #3 and #4 with one exception, which is a few people out there will most likely still insist on buying private insurance. Nothing wrong with that but everyone getting a subsidy on the ACA exchanges most likely goes the Medicaid route with the same pricetag as they're paying now.

So, for the time being insurance companies exist to service employer based plans and a few private plans.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

nope. strength in numbers. need everyone in the pie and then a big stick. if you don't include mookie he ain't giving a chit. and you need him.

mookie is useless and not needed except to bolster the viewership of Cinemax late night TV. In an ideal world everyone would be in the same pie, but we don't live in an ideal world or Republicans, Boston College, or Justin Beiber wouldn't exist. Need to approach this realistically.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

... I wouldn't change employer coverage right now. Concentrate on the people who aren't insured.

Says someone who has not been screwed over for the all mighty dollar. Thankfully, it wasn't as bad for me as it was for my office mate- where the change meant that the new doc missed something big. Corporations change their plans very often, just to "save" a little money...

I'm not happy at all with the company that launders my money.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Says someone who has not been screwed over for the all mighty dollar. Thankfully, it wasn't as bad for me as it was for my office mate- where the change meant that the new doc missed something big. Corporations change their plans very often, just to "save" a little money...

I'm not happy at all with the company that launders my money.

Don't bite off more than you can chew. An important lesson of the last two health care efforts, and the absurd repeal we're in the middle of now.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Don't bite off more than you can chew. An important lesson of the last two health care efforts, and the absurd repeal we're in the middle of now.

good thing nobody listens to rover. otherwise there is no apollo mission. no manhattan project. no....

gov is here to bite off what individuals and private enterprises can't chew.
________________________________________________
tell us all again uncle rover how hilly is in the bag and the repub party will wither and die after the 2016 elections!!!!!!


:rolleyes:
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

right there with you man.... "coverage".

however ----- insurance co are in the middle now with their hands in everything. even if we can remove them we still need TO remove them by putting them on the table. let's nationalize them :p

Would your nationalized coverage include therapeutic visits to Trump brand massage parlors? Might be able to garner some support for that...
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

good thing nobody listens to rover. otherwise there is no apollo mission. no manhattan project. no....

gov is here to bite off what individuals and private enterprises can't chew.
________________________________________________
tell us all again uncle rover how hilly is in the bag and the repub party will wither and die after the 2016 elections!!!!!!


:rolleyes:

Not my fault whiny losers would rather complain than vote! My conscience is clear. ;)

Try enacting a single payer law overnight and watch what happens. Anybody who likes their employer sponsored healthcare is going to be front and center in any ad campaign against this. You'd also have to address the millions of people about to lose their jobs in the insurance industry. Lastly, you'd have to explain the windfall you've just given corp America, bigger than most GOP tax cuts, where they now are no longer on the hook for health insurance.

I appreciate the goal here. I'm not against single payer. We should be moving towards that. However, any plan to do so in one big swoop will not only be defeated soundly, but will lead to the election of anti-single payer people who will be pressing to turn Medicaid and Medicare into a block grant that states can then use for tax cuts for the rich.

Far better to do what I say, and then slowly expand single payer on both ends - every year Medicare starts earlier until it starts at age 50 for example, and everyone who hits the age of 18 is enrolled in a Medicaid type plan. Eventually those two will meet, industry will have time to adjust, and everybody's happy.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Try enacting a single payer law overnight and watch what happens. Anybody who likes their employer sponsored healthcare is going to be front and center in any ad campaign against this. You'd also have to address the millions of people about to lose their jobs in the insurance industry. Lastly, you'd have to explain the windfall you've just given corp America, bigger than most GOP tax cuts, where they now are no longer on the hook for health insurance.

That won't matter, even under your way of doing it. The minute you have single payer for individuals who want their own plans, and the uninsured, companies will start dumping their coverage.

And what's wrong with a windfall like that? It will spur innovation and infrastructure spending, as well as boosting employment. At least, that's what Republicans tell me.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

That won't matter, even under your way of doing it. The minute you have single payer for individuals who want their own plans, and the uninsured, companies will start dumping their coverage.

And what's wrong with a windfall like that? It will spur innovation and infrastructure spending, as well as boosting employment. At least, that's what Republicans tell me.

How does it change the employee expenditures for the companies? Instead of Widget Co paying (just tossing out a number here, $15,000) to Big Bill Insurance for its employer-sponsored plan, that payment is now made to the government through employee Bob's tax collections. If Bob isn't receiving the money that had previously gone to Big Bill Insurance Co., then Bob is now getting a raw deal as his taxes are going up without an offset to cover that additional cost. So he's essentially getting a reduced compensation package from Widget Co. Bob and his coworkers won't stand for that, so Widget Co will now pay Bob that erstwhile $15K Big Bill Ins Co premium as taxable income.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Oh yes, of course it will be done overnight :rolleyes:
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Mookie can't wait to visit chiner and partake :)
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Too perfect. Just needs a "MAI WAIFU" caption:

<img src="http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/10/10-paul-ryan-ayn-rand.w710.h473.2x.jpg" height=200 width=300></img>
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

How does it change the employee expenditures for the companies? Instead of Widget Co paying (just tossing out a number here, $15,000) to Big Bill Insurance for its employer-sponsored plan, that payment is now made to the government through employee Bob's tax collections. If Bob isn't receiving the money that had previously gone to Big Bill Insurance Co., then Bob is now getting a raw deal as his taxes are going up without an offset to cover that additional cost. So he's essentially getting a reduced compensation package from Widget Co. Bob and his coworkers won't stand for that, so Widget Co will now pay Bob that erstwhile $15K Big Bill Ins Co premium as taxable income.

My guess is Bob and his co workers will stand for that or they'll be out of a job. Never heard of companies willingly giving back the money to employees when the govt lowers their expenses. 99.999 times it goes to the shareholders or exec management.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

My guess is Bob and his co workers will stand for that or they'll be out of a job. Never heard of companies willingly giving back the money to employees when the govt lowers their expenses. 99.999 times it goes to the shareholders or exec management.

Thousands of dollars lost per employee will not stand. You'll have a mass exodus from any company that refused the employees a raise in their taxable pay as the premiums paid are already compensation to employees in lieu of cash. If people here have surmised correctly, and a single-payer system is cheaper, then the company could drop their next expenses by, say, 10% of the premiums, keep their employees' standards of living the same, and still save cash.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

I'm sort of in the middle with this. It's a competitive market out there. Places like 3M are giving paternal leave and extended maternal leave without being required to. Top employers have to offer this kind of benefit to stay competitive. I would assume these kinds of companies would do something similar if health insurance were removed from employment.

On the other hand, if all of industry decided to not do it, or even a plurality of companies, most would drop it. Most companies drive towards the mean for a lot of benefits.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Sorry, but its fantasyland thinking that the savings corporations get from not providing health insurance is going to back to the employees. Unless you mandate that as part of the law, you've been living in a different country than I have over the last 40 years. Bob and crew will be worse off and they'll get nothing and like it as judge Smails would say.

Agreed on either everybody does it, or nobody does it. My guess is nobody does it. There may be an occasional outlier. For example my employer gives 16 weeks off with full pay for maternity and paternity leave. That's far outside the norm, but its not costing them anything. This would be a huge boost to corporate profits. Boosts in corporate profits go to shareholders and executive management first and foremost, and to Bob last.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

My guess is Bob and his co workers will stand for that or they'll be out of a job. Never heard of companies willingly giving back the money to employees when the govt lowers their expenses. 99.999 times it goes to the shareholders or exec management.

agree. people will only see (depending on funding of course) their premiums that come out of their paycheck no longer doing so.
 
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

Sorry, but its fantasyland thinking that the savings corporations get from not providing health insurance is going to back to the employees. Unless you mandate that as part of the law, you've been living in a different country than I have over the last 40 years. Bob and crew will be worse off and they'll get nothing and like it as judge Smails would say.

Agreed on either everybody does it, or nobody does it. My guess is nobody does it. There may be an occasional outlier. For example my employer gives 16 weeks off with full pay for maternity and paternity leave. That's far outside the norm, but its not costing them anything. This would be a huge boost to corporate profits. Boosts in corporate profits go to shareholders and executive management first and foremost, and to Bob last.

True dat, and I don't know whether anybody will seriously argue with you. When corporations act "nobly" by extending benefits they're not forced to, it's because at some level they are forced to -- competition for scarce, high-skilled employees in the upper echelon of fields like medicine, tech, and science generally. That kind of carrot is still going to be extended no matter what the general health care climate is, and anyway those people aren't the ones hurting since ironically they actually can pay out of pocket for their own care.

I see the logic in letting people who are covered by their employers have the option to keep their plans. As a rule, people hate change, and with something like health insurance and heath care they fear it for rational reasons. If you're doing OK in your row boat in shark-infested waters, you are afraid to let a hundred people swimming in the water into your boat (Obamacare) but you're equally afraid to leave your rowboat for a fancy new raft that can take everyone (Single Payer). Leave the rowboats alone while we launch the raft to pick up the vulnerable people.

It's true some of the sharks are the insurance industry and the various other parasitic industries that have been built to exploit people's dread of the cost of illness. The health care insurance industry is basically a protection racket. As a practical first step, let people who are happy paying protection money keep doing it while we take care of those who can't make the payments.

We are in the 1860s and watching the development of fire departments. First they are private and obey profit motive considerations, only putting out fires at premium-payers' houses. The first thing to do is create a network of public, non-profit fire departments. Don't bother trying to pry people away from private sector firehouses -- eventually, that will either take care of itself or they will somehow actually manage to stay competitive in which case they aren't hurting anybody.
 
Last edited:
Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

True dat, and I don't know whether anybody will seriously argue with you. When corporations act "nobly" by extending benefits they're not forced to, it's because at some level they are forced to -- competition for scarce, high-skilled employees in the upper echelon of fields like medicine, tech, and science generally. That kind of carrot is still going to be extended no matter what the general health care climate is, and anyway those people aren't the ones hurting since ironically they actually can pay out of pocket for their own care.

I see the logic in letting people who are covered by their employers have the option to keep their plans. As a rule, people hate change, and with something like health insurance and heath care they fear it for rational reasons. If you're doing OK in your row boat in shark-infested waters, you are afraid to let a hundred people swimming in the water into your boat (Obamacare) but you're equally afraid to leave your rowboat for a fancy new raft that can take everyone (Single Payer). Leave the rowboats alone while we launch the raft to pick up the vulnerable people.

It's true some of the sharks are the insurance industry and the various other parasitic industries that have been built to exploit people's dread of the cost of illness. The health care insurance industry is basically a protection racket. As a practical first step, let people who are happy paying protection money keep doing it while we take care of those who can't make the payments.

We are in the 1860s and watching the development of fire departments. First they are private and obey profit motive considerations, only putting out fires at premium-payers' houses. The first thing to do is create a network of public, non-profit fire departments. Don't bother trying to pry people away from private sector firehouses -- eventually, that will either take care of itself or they will somehow actually manage to stay competitive in which case they aren't hurting anybody.

Excellent summary and exactly what I'm trying to say.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top