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The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
- Thread starter dxmnkd316
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Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Isn't Hobby Lobby also fighting for Corporate Personhood on a first amendment issue?
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Some of the terms people use are so vague or have such loaded connotations that using those terms often obscures more than it reveals. Here is a humble suggestion for some definitions that might clarify and defuse our "breathless hyperventilation."
Contra[-con]ception:
-- prevents a woman from ovulating
-- prevents sperm from fertilizing an egg
Unsure of term:
-- prevents fertilized egg from implanting in uterine wall
Abortifacient:
-- causes ejection of fertilized egg from uterus after implantation (before cell division occurs or gets very far along)
-- causes ejection of embryo from uterus after cell division begins but before organs begin to differentiate themselves
Abortion:
-- removal of embryo from uterus after organs begin to differentiate themselves
-- removal of proto-human from uterus after it has become recognizably human in an ultrasound
Murder:
-- in some states, to forcibly cause the death of an unborn child 8 months after fertilization (example: Scott Peterson was charged with two counts of murder)
-- in all states, to cause the death of a child after it is born, even if it is born prematurely. (example: Gosnell murder convictions)
Some people say, "human life begins at conception." While that may be so, human beings do not take shape until about two months after that.
Now, in my personal life, between the time that the amniotic fluid was drawn and the time we got the tests back, we agonized about what we'd do if, say, the spina bifida test was positive.
Thankfully, we never had to face that decision. However, my guess is that, if we did have to face it, we'd very reluctantly and with a great deal of anguish have decided to terminate that pregnancy. That being said, I have a great deal of respect for people who would choose otherwise, and I would be aghast at the government inserting itself into that decision one way or the other.
To me the overriding issue here is government compulsion. Let people make their own decisions on matters of morality and conscience. That is one of the most important reasons we have the First Amendment. Quakers are not forced to serve in combat, no matter how important that particular military action may be.
I can fully understand a woman saying "ew, I don't want some parasite growing inside me, get it out." Might well be better for society in the long run too, who can say how much abuse and neglect that potential child might have endured otherwise, and what kind of sociopath that might produce? I can also fully understand someone saying, "you cannot commit murder, even if the murder victim happens to have temporary residence inside a womb for a few months." Tough calls. Competing imperatives. No easy answers.
Some of the terms people use are so vague or have such loaded connotations that using those terms often obscures more than it reveals. Here is a humble suggestion for some definitions that might clarify and defuse our "breathless hyperventilation."
Contra[-con]ception:
-- prevents a woman from ovulating
-- prevents sperm from fertilizing an egg
Unsure of term:
-- prevents fertilized egg from implanting in uterine wall
Abortifacient:
-- causes ejection of fertilized egg from uterus after implantation (before cell division occurs or gets very far along)
-- causes ejection of embryo from uterus after cell division begins but before organs begin to differentiate themselves
Abortion:
-- removal of embryo from uterus after organs begin to differentiate themselves
-- removal of proto-human from uterus after it has become recognizably human in an ultrasound
Murder:
-- in some states, to forcibly cause the death of an unborn child 8 months after fertilization (example: Scott Peterson was charged with two counts of murder)
-- in all states, to cause the death of a child after it is born, even if it is born prematurely. (example: Gosnell murder convictions)
Some people say, "human life begins at conception." While that may be so, human beings do not take shape until about two months after that.
Now, in my personal life, between the time that the amniotic fluid was drawn and the time we got the tests back, we agonized about what we'd do if, say, the spina bifida test was positive.
Thankfully, we never had to face that decision. However, my guess is that, if we did have to face it, we'd very reluctantly and with a great deal of anguish have decided to terminate that pregnancy. That being said, I have a great deal of respect for people who would choose otherwise, and I would be aghast at the government inserting itself into that decision one way or the other.
To me the overriding issue here is government compulsion. Let people make their own decisions on matters of morality and conscience. That is one of the most important reasons we have the First Amendment. Quakers are not forced to serve in combat, no matter how important that particular military action may be.
I can fully understand a woman saying "ew, I don't want some parasite growing inside me, get it out." Might well be better for society in the long run too, who can say how much abuse and neglect that potential child might have endured otherwise, and what kind of sociopath that might produce? I can also fully understand someone saying, "you cannot commit murder, even if the murder victim happens to have temporary residence inside a womb for a few months." Tough calls. Competing imperatives. No easy answers.
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P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Wow. All abortions are a result of birth control. You learn something new everyday...
Of course, if this were a case about abortion, you might possibly have a point (doubtful) but since it isn't...
Are you really that incompetent when it comes to performing an internet search?
Multiple sources report that there are around 1 million abortions per year in the US. Since you are such a [redacted] about it, I'll let you find your own links.
Hint: open a search engine, and then type "how many abortions in US" and see what you get. The results run the spectrum of right-to-life sites to Centers for Disease Control to news sites to Planned Parenthood. the numbers are fairly consistent across the board.
Wow. All abortions are a result of birth control. You learn something new everyday...
Of course, if this were a case about abortion, you might possibly have a point (doubtful) but since it isn't...
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
No it won't. The decision will have no value as precedent whatsoever. The decision will be worded so narrowly that it will only apply to this one case, which is not even a statute, it is a non-statutory regulation.
No it won't. The decision will have no value as precedent whatsoever. The decision will be worded so narrowly that it will only apply to this one case, which is not even a statute, it is a non-statutory regulation.
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
No. Are you really that incompetent at logic?
No. Are you really that incompetent at logic?
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
The different views on this issue are part and parcel of why this is before the Supreme Court.
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
To me, this is exactly why Hobby Lobby should NOT be allowed to exclude family planning options from the health care coverage it provides. If an $8-per-hour clerk at Hobby Lobby is responsibly using birth control and accidentally gets pregnant (this definitely happens) and does not want to continue the pregnancy, why should Hobby Lobby have the right to take that choice away from her? She's the one who should be making the choice, not the government, and not her employer.
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
There is no way Hobby Lobby can tell her whether she can or can't do anything related to her pregnancy or not. To say so is an obvious red herring. Are you saying they'll follow her around and forcibly stop her from going to a pharmacy or an Planned Parenthood clinic or whatever? If so, that's patently ridiculous. The only compulsion here is on Hobby Lobby by the government.
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Hobby Lobby isn't telling that clerk they can't use birth control or that they must continue their pregnancy. Hobby Lobby is saying they cannot be compelled to pay for those choices based on a religious view.
unofan
Well-known member
We can force them to pay for it, though. Quakers aren't exempted from taxes that support the military.
Likewise, no one is forcing Hobby Lobby to use birth control. We as a society are merely forcing their insurance plans to pay for it for those who do.
Why is it against their religion to give a dollar to an employee's insurance company for birth control but ok to give that same dollar to the employee to then to buy birth control themselves?
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Hobby Lobby is doing nothing to take any choice away from her. Planned Parenthood will be glad to help out. If you are so exercised, send them a check. The choice is entirely up to her.
Hobby Lobby is fine with 16 of the 20 mandated birth control options, including prospective family planning. They have no say whatsoever in what she does on her own time with her own money. They are taking nothing away from her and they are not constraining her. How is that so hard to understand? She can get an abortion and pay nothing for it. Hobby Lobby won't either. Everyone gets what they want (except, presumably, the fetus, which has no say in the matter).
Hobby Lobby is doing nothing to take any choice away from her. Planned Parenthood will be glad to help out. If you are so exercised, send them a check. The choice is entirely up to her.
Hobby Lobby is fine with 16 of the 20 mandated birth control options, including prospective family planning. They have no say whatsoever in what she does on her own time with her own money. They are taking nothing away from her and they are not constraining her. How is that so hard to understand? She can get an abortion and pay nothing for it. Hobby Lobby won't either. Everyone gets what they want (except, presumably, the fetus, which has no say in the matter).
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
Good argument. I can't wait for the explanation of this one.
Good argument. I can't wait for the explanation of this one.
unofan
Well-known member
Why do you insist on making this an abortion case? Could it be you have no logical leg to stand on if it's framed any other way?
Foxton
Banned
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
I'm curious how he thinks Planned Parenthood is going to be able to cover all this stuff when other conservatives have made a concentrated effort to destroy them.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
All part of the GOP plan.
All part of the GOP plan.
P
Priceless
Guest
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!
It's a well-established fact that over 90% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortions.
It's a well-established fact that over 90% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortions.
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