The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

How do they plan to change this? Pay every teacher the same no matter where they teach? Force a teacher who could earn X at school Y to teach for .8X at school Z?

well, there have been various proposals to provide merit pay to teachers and the unions have opposed every one of them. it's a really big political issue in NY because there have been promises that a teacher evaluation system would be implemented, yet somehow it is always being "delayed" for one reason or another.

there also have been proposals to pay teachers an incremental extra if they volunteer to teach in schools with the most challenging learning environments, and unions have opposed those too.

(I'm speaking from NY - CT news reports, etc. and not from nationwide knowledge or experience. I know several teachers who absolutely despise their unions but are too intimidated ever to say so outside of a very narrow circle of their most trusted friends).


It is quite clear here though that poor and minority school students in public schools really do get shafted. Can't disagree with the substance of the judge's ruling that protecting unfit teachers from being terminated really does seem to fall disproportionately on those with the least voice. Interesting that he cited Brown vs Board of Education as precedent, no?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

OK, I see an obvious flaw in that plan. If I'm a low-quality teacher not likely to land a good job in a good district, I'll take a low profile job in a crappy district and collect those bonuses. Expectations for my students won't be all that high anyway.

Also, how do you plan to grade teachers? On how the kids do on tests? What kind of grades the kids get? Hey, everyone in my class gets an A! I must be an awesome teacher!

 

[joecct]

OK, I see an obvious flaw in that plan. If I'm a low-quality teacher not likely to land a good job in a good district, I'll take a low profile job in a crappy district and collect those bonuses. Expectations for my students won't be all that high anyway.

Also, how do you plan to grade teachers? On how the kids do on tests? What kind of grades the kids get? Hey, everyone in my class gets an A! I must be an awesome teacher!

That sounds like Harvard.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Something is rotten in Denmark?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Something is rotten in Denmark?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

It's the cheese.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

OK, I see an obvious flaw in that plan. If I'm a low-quality teacher not likely to land a good job in a good district, I'll take a low profile job in a crappy district and collect those bonuses. Expectations for my students won't be all that high anyway.

Also, how do you plan to grade teachers? On how the kids do on tests? What kind of grades the kids get? Hey, everyone in my class gets an A! I must be an awesome teacher!

Either you don't have children (or nieces or nephews) yourself, or you don't care whether they succeed or fail in life. otherwise how can you be so flippant and uncaring about whether any child receives a decent education or not?

Are you saying that just because you personally don't know how to evaluate whether a person does his/her job well, then there's no point in trying to evaluate them at all?

I thought you cared about others. Poseur.

 

[Priceless]

Either you don't have children (or nieces or nephews) yourself, or you don't care whether they succeed or fail in life. otherwise how can you be so flippant and uncaring about whether any child receives a decent education or not?

Are you saying that just because you personally don't know how to evaluate whether a person does his/her job well, then there's no point in trying to evaluate them at all?

I thought you cared about others. Poseur.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Either you don't have children (or nieces or nephews) yourself, or you don't care whether they succeed or fail in life. otherwise how can you be so flippant and uncaring about whether any child receives a decent education or not?

Are you saying that just because you personally don't know how to evaluate whether a person does his/her job well, then there's no point in trying to evaluate them at all?

I thought you cared about others. Poseur.

So how would you "grade" the teachers?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

The Obama administration came out in favor of the ruling yesterday. It's interesting because I heard and read from a few commentators that Obama wasn't going to be as strongly supportive of the teachers union as past Dem presidents have been. Prior to these comments I hadn't seen anything to support those commentators, but maybe he was just waiting for his second term in office to start taking his stance public - after his need for their campaign money has ended, of course.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/justice/california-teacher-tenure-lawsuit/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The ruling was hailed by the nation's top education chief as bringing to California -- and possibly the nation -- an opportunity to build "a new framework for the teaching profession." The decision represented "a mandate" to fix a broken teaching system, U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said.
...

At a minimum, Duncan said the court decision, if upheld, will bring to California "a new framework for the teaching profession that protects students' rights to equal educational opportunities while providing teachers the support, respect and rewarding careers they deserve."

"The students who brought this lawsuit are, unfortunately, just nine out of millions of young people in America who are disadvantaged by laws, practices and systems that fail to identify and support our best teachers and match them with our neediest students. Today's court decision is a mandate to fix these problems," Duncan said.
...

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Truthfully, people talk about teachers not being properly respected in this country. Well, with this ruling, if it were to spread across the country with a SCOTUS ruling (I don't know if this is a state or federal case), it would go a long way towards making the profession more highly regarded because people would know that teachers won't be able to rest upon their tenure and be forced to give a real, true effort to teaching students.

This is not a commentary on student results as there are far more considerations in play than simply the teachers in the classroom.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I can understand tenure at the college/university level. Professors can choose research topics that are controversial, and they should not be penalized for that once they've achieved certain seniority status. Tenure in grade schools makes less sense to me - public school teachers are supposed to be teaching to a standardized curriculum. The tricky part is, how do we measure performance? Test scores are obviously not the answer, but no one else seems to want to tackle the issue from another angle.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I can understand tenure at the college/university level. Professors can choose research topics that are controversial, and they should not be penalized for that once they've achieved certain seniority status. Tenure in grade schools makes less sense to me - public school teachers are supposed to be teaching to a standardized curriculum. The tricky part is, how do we measure performance? Test scores are obviously not the answer, but no one else seems to want to tackle the issue from another angle.

multi year contracts for teachers with more than X years of successful performance??

Standardized tests can be a measure of performance, just not the sole measurement.

The trouble is that we are treating the disease, not the symptoms. Why are Jack and Jane not performing well? Are they in a less than advantageous household (which covers a multitude of sins)? Are they bored - should Jack and Jane be pushed to the maximum rather than stay on grade level? Should Billy and Martha be held back to get confidence in the academics? Crap! That's a lot. I'm glad I'm not an eddicator.

 

[Priceless]

Truthfully, people talk about teachers not being properly respected in this country. Well, with this ruling, if it were to spread across the country with a SCOTUS ruling (I don't know if this is a state or federal case), it would go a long way towards making the profession more highly regarded because people would know that teachers won't be able to rest upon their tenure and be forced to give a real, true effort to teaching students.

This is not a commentary on student results as there are far more considerations in play than simply the teachers in the classroom.

You want to have respected teachers in this country? Pay them better. A high school science teacher should not have to work part-time at a car wash.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

You want to have respected teachers in this country? Pay them better. A high school science teacher should not have to work part-time at a car wash.

We don't need to pay people. That's what the government is for. - Sam Walton

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I can understand tenure at the college/university level. Professors can choose research topics that are controversial, and they should not be penalized for that once they've achieved certain seniority status. Tenure in grade schools makes less sense to me - public school teachers are supposed to be teaching to a standardized curriculum. The tricky part is, how do we measure performance? Test scores are obviously not the answer, but no one else seems to want to tackle the issue from another angle.

The user group here is the kids and their parents. Including their feedback in performance reviews that are the basis of bonuses and raises would help.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

The user group here is the kids and their parents. Including their feedback in performance reviews that are the basis of bonuses and raises would help.

That makes me cringe for just a moment. Websites like RateMyProfessor started mostly so that students could b*tch and moan about tough profs (and up-vote the attractive ones ). Being a tough or strict teacher does not automatically make you a bad teacher.

 

[dxmnkd316]

The user group here is the kids and their parents. Including their feedback in performance reviews that are the basis of bonuses and raises would help.

HEY! You're back in the Cafe!

 

[Slap Shot]

That makes me cringe for just a moment. Websites like RateMyProfessor started mostly so that students could b*tch and moan about tough profs (and up-vote the attractive ones ). Being a tough or strict teacher does not automatically make you a bad teacher.

One bad rating wouldn't spoil the overall if deserving of better.

 

[dxmnkd316]

That makes me cringe for just a moment. Websites like RateMyProfessor started mostly so that students could b*tch and moan about tough profs (and up-vote the attractive ones ). Being a tough or strict teacher does not automatically make you a bad teacher.

The chili pepper.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

That makes me cringe for just a moment. Websites like RateMyProfessor started mostly so that students could b*tch and moan about tough profs (and up-vote the attractive ones ). Being a tough or strict teacher does not automatically make you a bad teacher.

No, but even if a certain school's parents and kids voted out all the tough teachers, they'd end up with exactly the kind of teachers they want (and deserve). The tough teachers would just move on to districts where they were more appreciated. Seems like a win for everyone.