The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

I absolutely agree with all of this.

I’d also add THIS Joker is a sympathetic character period. What’s the difference between Arthur Fleck and Travis Bickle? Fleck has a mental condition that needed treatment and it evidently ran in his family. This movie shows one possible outcome to a man that’s damaged to start but is also shat on at every opportunity along the way.

It gives the NYT and others the mirror they need to look into and it gives much needed depth to the character.

I don’t give a **** what the gop thinks of this film. It’s not written for them and will never understand the kill the rich sentiment that pervades this version of Gotham.

There is a theory out there, well, a couple...

1. This all happened in his head only. He's been in the asylum the whole time (which I what I thought).
2. All of what happened, happened, until his arrest. His "escape" never happened. It was arrest, then asylum.
3. The asylum is actually a flashback, before he got released (hence the social worker asking "Have you thought about what you did to get locked up in the first place?" [paraphrased]), and what happened in the movie is after he escaped/etc.

 

[solovsfett]

There is a theory out there, well, a couple...

1. This all happened in his head only. He's been in the asylum the whole time (which I what I thought).
2. All of what happened, happened, until his arrest. His "escape" never happened. It was arrest, then asylum.
3. The asylum is actually a flashback, before he got released (hence the social worker asking "Have you thought about what you did to get locked up in the first place?" [paraphrased]), and what happened in the movie is after he escaped/etc.

I really need to see the movie again. I’m not sure which theory i’m leaning towards at the moment. The first theory on your list is fascinating.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

I really need to see the movie again. I’m not sure which theory i’m leaning towards at the moment. The first theory on your list is fascinating.

I need to see it again, too. The buddy I went with, he thought the same thing. It was ALL in his head.

The other two theories are ones that I've come across after seeing the movie.

Edit: the lines:
Social Worker : Is something funny?

Arthur Fleck : I just thought of a funny joke!

Social Worker : Do you mind telling it?

Arthur Fleck : ...You wouldn't get it.

That's what led me to believe he had this grandeur dream....

 

[Handyman]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

The "it's all in his head" is a cool theory but I didn't buy it even though they hint at it. To me the final scene he looks older (some grey hair) and he is laughing for fun not pain. Plus things just look different whenever he is fantasizing and that looks way too normal.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

The "it's all in his head" is a cool theory but I didn't buy it even though they hint at it. To me the final scene he looks older (some grey hair) and he is laughing for fun not pain. Plus things just look different whenever he is fantasizing and that looks way too normal.

This is why I need to see it again. That ending threw me, so need to go back and fill in the blanks, so to speak.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

This is why I need to see it again. That ending threw me, so need to go back and fill in the blanks, so to speak.

Yeah...I debated it for a few hours the first time but figured it was put in that way as a way to make us wonder whether its in his head, a memory or a combo of both.

I have had some fun discussions about it the last few days

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

Yeah...I debated it for a few hours the first time but figured it was put in that way as a way to make us wonder whether its in his head, a memory or a combo of both.

I have had some fun discussions about it the last few days

There were some things in the "main" story that made me wonder... No "flatline" beep when he killed mom? The midget not calling the cops after he left the apt? A little too (relatively) healthy after getting t-boned?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

There were some things in the "main" story that made me wonder... No "flatline" beep when he killed mom? The midget not calling the cops after he left the apt? A little too (relatively) healthy after getting t-boned?

Like the door knob, maybe he couldn't reach a phone. (Wah-wah...) Thinking about it a little, he left his apartment right after killing the guy. That's the scene of him going down the long stairs outside.

And I discount it all happening in his head because of the Wayne murder scene. I think that shows the events are happening within that universe's reality. What you're noticing may simply be a few plot holes or goofs (like the heartbeat monitor not going flat).

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

Like the door knob, maybe he couldn't reach a phone. (Wah-wah...) Thinking about it a little, he left his apartment right after killing the guy. That's the scene of him going down the long stairs outside.

And I discount it all happening in his head because of the Wayne murder scene. I think that shows the events are happening within that universe's reality. What you're noticing may simply be a few plot holes or goofs (like the heartbeat monitor not going flat).

Could be. I agree the Wayne murders throws a wrench in the whole "dream" thing. One (rather far-fetched) angle is that the Wayne murders DID happen in reality, Joker heard about them in the asylum, and weaved that into his daydream.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

The Wayne murders could have been in his head...I mean he would want Bruce to suffer and killing his parents would do that. Would be a fun way to make him suffer in your fantasy.

When he kills his mom there is no long beep but there is the heart rate monitor slowing down and stopping. I just figured it was a cruddy hospital with old equipment but that is a good catch.

As for the small dude...I always assumed he called the cops (or talked to the detectives who showed up) right after he left. He didnt call them right away because Arthur wasnt attacking him and he was in shock. Plus that dude was a ***** to him

What's nice is, the Joker is not supposed to have an origin (or at best a multiple choice one) and technically now he still doesnt. If they made a sequel, or if for some reason JP wanted to be in a Batman film (he doesnt but that isnt the point) you could have him show up and have the whole story negated without ruining the film. If they want him to be Fleck Joker they can, or they can play it off it was all in his head, or that any part of it may have happened depending on what the story asks for. JP could play the Joker as a completely different character and not have it truly contradict anything. Since we never know what part of the story is real or not there is no rules.

I kind of hope it is a Primal Fear style thing...where in truth there is no Arthur. (like he says to his mom the laughing is the true him) Joker is a crazy homicidal man but at this point he is still green enough to have a bit of conscience left. This story, the lonely man who just wants to make the world smile but is beat down by the system, is his mind trying to justify his desire to destroy and kill. Some of it may be based on the truth (the parts as a child perhaps) but the rest is just his desire to be the hero despite his rage. That is why everyone is so hostile towards him. Alfred talks crap to him, Thomas Wayne acts like Donald Trump and no one in the entire world seems to get him. The fight with Mur-RAY at the end is Joker killing the last part of his conscience metaphorically. (no joke my dad jumped 3 feet in the air when that happened...man he loved the film!)

The thing that makes me wonder the most is the hospital at the end...it looks too nice. When you see Arthur at the beginning in the hospital it looks dark and dank. Gotham in 1981 looks awful. Yet at the end the room he is in is pristine, almost glowing. Why is that? Did they time jump a few years and the city was cleaned up after the chaos? Was the cruddy Gotham just a figment of his imagination? Is the end a figment of his imagination or a dream? (it certainly seems kind of dreamy) What if the parts we are supposed to think are him living in a fantasy world (outside of the girl who like Franklin is his mind trying to cope) are the truth and the awful society and sad life are actually him living in a dream world. His mom made up a whole story about her love affair with Thomas Wayne and they having Arthur instead of dealing with the truth (she adopted him and let her boyfriend beat and torture him) so why couldnt Joker?

I dunno things just seemed off...and that is why I love it so

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

That's the BEST part of the movie: the non-origin of the Joker remains intact. It's all up to the viewer (or reader, if one reads comic books). And each individual has his/her own reasoning on where the Joker started.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

not only no tone on the flatlining, but mom had the call stick/button in her right hand and nobody responded.

is this not "a comic book" movie to y'all because of the age difference? joker is 30-35yo while bruce is maaaaaaaybe 12. ergo by the time batman becomes a 'man' and fights crime, joker is ready for retirement?? not the way mookie remembers the comics and even mookie's kid (15yo who came with) said they should be around the same age.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

This is not a Batman story so who cares...

 

[mookie1995]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

This is not a Batman story so who cares...

1) without batman, there is no joker
2) bruce wayne (who grows up to BE batman) was in the movie

ergo, batman

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

not only no tone on the flatlining, but mom had the call stick/button in her right hand and nobody responded.

is this not "a comic book" movie to y'all because of the age difference? joker is 30-35yo while bruce is maaaaaaaybe 12. ergo by the time batman becomes a 'man' and fights crime, joker is ready for retirement?? not the way mookie remembers the comics and even mookie's kid (15yo who came with) said they should be around the same age.

In many of the stories, Batman is a kid when the Joker is in his 20s-30s. Not all of them, but it still happens.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

1) without batman, there is no joker
2) bruce wayne (who grows up to BE batman) was in the movie

ergo, batman

No, that's the difference between a character and a universe.

Once it becomes universe it can lose any character, even a "foundational" one, and it's still the universe. It's the sign of the maturation of the concept.

Sherlock Holmes will never be a universe because without him there's no there there. I'd argue Super Man is the same though I defer to DCers. But Batman belongs to a universe so Batman is inessential.

Now, you may argue the Batman and Super Man universes are identical in which case Super Man is also inessential. But in either case, Batman is inessential.

 

[mookie1995]

In many of the stories, Batman is a kid when the Joker is in his 20s-30s. Not all of them, but it still happens.

Hmmmmm. Interesting

 

[mookie1995]

No, that's the difference between a character and a universe.

Once it becomes universe it can lose any character, even a "foundational" one, and it's still the universe. It's the sign of the maturation of the concept.

Sherlock Holmes will never be a universe because without him there's no there there. I'd argue Super Man is the same though I defer to DCers. But Batman belongs to a universe so Batman is inessential.

Now, you may argue the Batman and Super Man universes are identical in which case Super Man is also inessential. But in either case, Batman is inessential.

So..... if someone makes a Lois lane movie and she is Carrie Underwood jr and sluts it up, but one of the dudes is names Clark and has cute hair....

Is this not a Superman movie?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Movie Spoiler Thread. You've Been Warned

So..... if someone makes a Lois lane movie and she is Carrie Underwood jr and sluts it up, but one of the dudes is names Clark and has cute hair....

Is this not a Superman movie?

If someone makes a Lois Lane movie and she is Carrie Underwood jr and sluts it up they should be shot. Lois Lane is the ambitious but pure of heart girl reporter. And she's a brunette, obviously, because blondes are evil and redheads are crazy.

 

[mookie1995]

If someone makes a Lois Lane movie and she is Carrie Underwood jr and sluts it up they should be shot. Lois Lane is the ambitious but pure of heart girl reporter. And she's a brunette, obviously, because blondes are evil and redheads are crazy.

Mary Jane Watson then and Peter Parker???