The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

We have supposedly been in a "recovery" since 2009: how does one reconcile a "recovery" with such a dramatic increase in people "needing" assistance? Hmm, might this indeed by a symptom of increased dependency after all?

We've had a partial recovery. Granted, it's not as strong as our government wants us to believe; there are still too many people unemployed, and far too many underemployed. It's also a fact that long-term economic recessions such as the Great Depression, and the Stagflation era of the late 70s/early 80s, have led to a more expansive federal government.

FDR's administrations left us with the first major public welfare systems and public works projects in US history, and FDR himself constantly sought to increase the power of the Presidential office through measures such as massive expansion of the FBI (thankfully he didn't get to appoint six more SCOTUS justices ). But things like the bank holiday, WPA, Social Security, the Fireside Chats, and WW2 leadership, typically land him at #2 on those "greatest US Presidents" lists. Reagan spent his first term playing footsies with the Supply Siders and saw unemployment balloon to Obama levels (funny how you never hear that in grade school history), before sticking us with the borrow-and-spend economics that have now come full circle to bite us in the arse. Yet, because he was able to do it with an endearing "Aw, shucks" demeanor, delivered some decent speeches, put the end of the Cold War into motion, and elicited a bunch of memorable laughs, he continues to go down in the annals of history as a Top 5 prez.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

"since before the recession began in 2007"

It's right there.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Not that I buy into FF's argument...esp in regards to the importance of public assistance. But this pov is misleading at best. Christianity and religious institutions in general have not been the direct cause of deaths by Americans in the last couple hundred years (while govts continue to be responsible for wars even today). The above point about the church in this country is analogous to saying Caucasian Americans regularly enslave African Americans and kill Native Americans.

In fact over the last two centuries, Christian institutions have been about as beneficial as one can imagine in the US as they have helped deal with child labor, slavery, womens sufferage, healthcare and aiding the poor (when the government wouldn't or couldn't address these issues). Having said that, the challenges facing this country with the poor are big enough to merit both public and private efforts.

I could be wrong, but I believe Hovey is speaking of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and so forth. The entire Middle East conflict is based on religion. One might also argue that the Catholic Church's insistence that condoms are verboten in African nations has driven the AIDS epidemic and caused countless millions to suffer and why the global average for life expectancy is 67 (according to the CIA) but is 32 in Swaziland, 38 in Angola, 39 in Zambia and so on.

 

[pirate]

I could be wrong, but I believe Hovey is speaking of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and so forth. The entire Middle East conflict is based on religion. One might also argue that the Catholic Church's insistence that condoms are verboten in African nations has driven the AIDS epidemic and caused countless millions to suffer and why the global average for life expectancy is 67 (according to the CIA) but is 32 in Swaziland, 38 in Angola, 39 in Zambia and so on.

Might argue? Are you saying it or not?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Might argue? Are you saying it or not?

Me? Of course not. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that a sexually transmitted disease that has been mostly checked here in the West thanks to safe sex practices has become a plague over there where safe sex is not allowed or you'll burn in hellfire for all eternity. But others might not see it that way.

 

[pirate]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Me? Of course not. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that a sexually transmitted disease that has been mostly checked here in the West thanks to safe sex practices has become a plague over there where safe sex is not allowed or you'll burn in hellfire for all eternity. But others might not see it that way.

So, AIDS would be prevalent among catholics in the US? Would that be a proof point for your theory?

Without a doubt, access to contraception, and or belief in it, impact AIDS. That you glossed over war, lack of infrastructure, lack of education, lack of medical facilities, lack of water and electricity, lack of natural resources etc. and went to the catholic church being responsible for the mortality rates in Africa is the kind of myopic 'analysis' that increases post counts but not logical discourse.

The catholic church is responsible for myriad problems and issues on all continents. Their hypocrisy is rivaled by US political parties but, other than that, they have few peers.

They also brought basic health care and education to many countries and brought the plight of Africa to the attention of many people in first world countries. Were they trying to convert those they helped? Yes. Was that solely for the good of the people? No. Have the efforts in education and healthcare been equally sustainable on all continents? No.

Is the Catholic church, who can't get many educated Americans to follow their contraception mantra so much more effective in current day Africa that young men and women consciously choose not to use contraceptives because Rome tells them to? Does the Catholic church have an embargo on contraceptives in Africa, effectively preventing access?

You could never criticize the catholic church more than I do/could...but you do a diservice to the people dying in those countries by trying to make a political point out of their misery. If you thought dumping a plane load of condoms on those countries would improve mortality rates more than ending political strife, infrastructure defficencies etc. then have at it...but see my first point...apparentlyreligious teaching alone doesn't drive AIDS proliferation.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Um, my point about churches was NOT AT ALL a proposal that we use them, it was merely an example of how it could be done.

Substitute any "non-governmental social service agency" instead.

The underlying point seems to have been confirmed by the responses to date: any governmental program institutionalizes the problem it purports to solve, making sure that the problem becomes permanent. and not only permanent, the problem is almost certain to become more serious, not less, as well.

After all, that is a natural human impulse, no? to advance in one's career?

for a bureaucrat, "advancement" means moving up the supervisory chain, having a larger budget and more people under you. that's exactly the opposite of what we want from a program that truly tries to help people have better lives.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Without a doubt, access to contraception, and or belief in it, impact AIDS. That you glossed over war, lack of infrastructure, lack of education, lack of medical facilities, lack of water and electricity, lack of natural resources etc. and went to the catholic church being responsible for the mortality rates in Africa is the kind of myopic 'analysis' that increases post counts but not logical discourse.

That doesn't even include the pervasive and disgustingly nonchalant attitude towards rape as a spoils of tribal warfare in many of those countries.

 

[Rover]

So this lady wrote what is likely an exceedingly dense article, and came up with a clever name for her theory, when the friggin' Chinese gave us the "give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" two sentence proverb ages ago? So what exactly is the "serious problem" that qualifies for this thread -- lack of suitable subject matter for industrial engineers to write about?

Fishy is hitting one of the three basic tenets of conservatism. These are 1) We're losing our freedoms, 2) The country is changing too fast and going to hell because of it, and 3) You're the only one working while everybody else is getting a handout. Call it The Three Fears as opposed to FDR's The Four Freedoms.

So, he's chosen #3. Conservatives in my opinion have a strong preference to see themselves as martyrs. Fishy for example most likely believes he's one of the few people in this country willing to pull his own weight. But, in an attempt to not seem cruel, which in general most cons aren't, a cottage industry has sprung up trying to explain how by cutting off a lifeline for people you are in fact doing them a favor. This book is part of that industry.

However, the problem is aside from the occasional grifter its exceedingly difficult if not impossible to live on public assistance and have any sort of tolerable life. I think most can agree that Cory Booker is a grandstander. That being said he was correct earlier this year to attempt to live off of what food stamps,etc give you every month. Its not much. I'm also amused whenever a righty tells us that people would rather be on unemployment than work. Unemployment payments to my knowledge are highest in MA @ $625 a week and that money is taxed. Sounds like a lot, right? Until you consider how difficult it is to live in this state on that kind of money. You're far better off working, even for near minimum wage, because you'd get an EIC at the end of the year not to mention benefits if you work a certain # of hours. IMHO too many conservatives don't stop and actually run the #'s. They'd rather buy into "47%" statements because its easy to digest.

The role I could see conservatives playing, which for some reason they don't, is cracking down on fraud. Nobody likes to see people who are grabbing $$$ with fake names, having 20 family members on the dole, participating in multiple programs, etc. Rudy Guiliani I believe when becoming mayor announced that welfare recipients would have to show up in person to verify their eligibility. Good for him. In Mass the conservative newspaper has exposed rampant misuse of EBT cards and shamed the idiot legislature into cracking down. Good for the Herald. This is what needs to be concentrated on, not feel good BS studies about how starving people actually does them good.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I could be wrong, but I believe Hovey is speaking of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and so forth. The entire Middle East conflict is based on religion. One might also argue that the Catholic Church's insistence that condoms are verboten in African nations has driven the AIDS epidemic and caused countless millions to suffer and why the global average for life expectancy is 67 (according to the CIA) but is 32 in Swaziland, 38 in Angola, 39 in Zambia and so on.

Of course Hovey is.

Starting with Rome, Christianity drove western healthcare all the way into the founding of hospitals in the US. Christianity was at the forefront of the slavery abolitionist movement. And nearly half of the largest charitable organizations have Christian ties, including Red Cross, Salvation Army, YMCA, Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Feed the Children and World Vision.

The positive impact in the last 200 years by the church has been immeasurable. If a single idiotic Roman pope mandate in Africa is enough to sway folks that today's US religion can't be trusted to help out...there's not much else to say.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Of course Hovey is.

Starting with Rome, Christianity drove western healthcare all the way into the founding of hospitals in the US. Christianity was at the forefront of the slavery abolitionist movement. And nearly half of the largest charitable organizations have Christian ties, including Red Cross, Salvation Army, YMCA, Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Feed the Children and World Vision.

The positive impact in the last 200 years by the church has been immeasurable. If a single idiotic Roman pope mandate in Africa is enough to sway folks that today's US religion can't be trusted to help out...there's not much else to say.

Actually, Priceless was right.

Obviously churches in this country do a terrific job of providing services to those who are underprivileged. I'm not suggesting they are some sort of evil.

But it's also true that going back through recorded history, millions of people have been killed in the name of religion, and in more primitive areas of the globe it still goes on today.

I just thought that FF's suggestion that churches, or similar volunteer type organizations, could step in and provide a basic level of safety net in this country without government support or involvement was silly, and I tried to dramatize that point by making what is obviously an inflammatory comment. It was not intended to suggest that I believe the Episcopalians and Lutherans have turned to street fighting in the boroughs of NY, ala the Sharks and Jets.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

So, AIDS would be prevalent among catholics in the US? Would that be a proof point for your theory?

Actually, Catholics in America treat their religion like a buffet...some of this, some of that, not interested in any of that... a 2011 study found that 98% of women who identified themselves as Catholics had used birth control at some point in her life.

A person might also say that all of those things you mention have an effect on life expectancy, but one has a very simple solution. It isn't so easy to build an infrastructure or stop a war, but handing out little plastic balloons would be really easy in comparison. Hindering the building of an infrastructure, incidentally, is the fact that 24 million people in Africa have the virus so are unable to work or receive an education and one million Africans die every year from the disease.

That's what a person might argue.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I just thought that FF's suggestion that churches, or similar volunteer type organizations, could step in and provide a basic level of safety net in this country without government support or involvement was silly, and I tried to dramatize that point by making what is obviously an inflammatory comment. It was not intended to suggest that I believe the Episcopalians and Lutherans have turned to street fighting in the boroughs of NY, ala the Sharks and Jets.

Let's back up a second and recall the original premise, and forget about potential solutions.

I started by saying that any government-run social welfare program would necessarily and inevitably worsen the very situation it was supposed to ameliorate. that is a very strong statement, I know, but the evidence is so overwhelming.

Suppose that it's true: any government-run social welfare program will necessarily engender dependency.

Do we want to increase dependency? Do you have any idea how insulting and demeaning and, yes, discriminatory it is?

"Many menbers of Minority populations are incapable of feeding themselves properly unless we step in and give them food." The soft bigotry of low expectations. If one says it outright, it sounds ugly, doesn't it?

Yet if you observe only actions, that is exactly what is going on.

I think that is a very big problem, the infantilization of people under the guise of "helping" them. It is NOT helping them. We agreed on that at the outset, YOU were the one who cited the "teach a person to fish" proverb.

I responded in kind: "i have drunk from wells I did not dig; I have warmed myself at fires I did not build." Note that the government did not dig these wells nor build these fires, other people did. they invited me to join them, and so now I invite others to join me in drinking from my well and in warming themselves at my fire.

How do we translate this healthy impulse to support each other through social, non-government channels, to end the cycle of dependency and promote interdependency?

 

[pirate]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Actually, Catholics in America treat their religion like a buffet...some of this, some of that, not interested in any of that... a 2011 study found that 98% of women who identified themselves as Catholics had used birth control at some point in her life.

A person might also say that all of those things you mention have an effect on life expectancy, but one has a very simple solution. It isn't so easy to build an infrastructure or stop a war, but handing out little plastic balloons would be really easy in comparison. Hindering the building of an infrastructure, incidentally, is the fact that 24 million people in Africa have the virus so are unable to work or receive an education and one million Africans die every year from the disease.

That's what a person might argue.

So you appear to be saying the teachings of the catholic church don't lead to decreased use of contraceptives? Yet, the church is responsible for the variance in mortality rates between 3-4 countries in africa and the global average? Unless you are saying only men adhere to the teachings of the catholic church in terms of contraception. Is that only African men, or might that be true on all continents?

That same church advises against pre-marital sex...so Africans are not effected by the church's abstinence teaching but conform with the contraception teaching, which leads to the spread of AIDS? Did no other agency or organization ever think of distributing condoms in Africa? Did the catholic church sink the supply ship or put holes in the condoms?

You know, if you'd only apply the butterfly effect I think you could come up with a line of reasoning that blames the catholic church for global warming. Or Justin Beiber. And by extension of course, blame republicans. You would have gotten more Rover points if W was a catholic, then you could blame him for not only AIDS but the entirety of the African mortality rate crisis. The blues equivalent of Yahtzee!!

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are trying to say, I might be missing the point of your original post.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Suppose that it's true: any government-run social welfare program will necessarily engender dependency.

And that's different from private charity how, other than the private charity is not bound to help everyone, while the government generally is?

Note that the government did not dig these wells nor build these fires, other people did.

Who the fark do you think does government work, if not other people?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Who the fark do you think does government work, if not other people?

Faceless bureaucrats. They aren't people.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Its a big enough problem for both the govt and the private sector including the church. The solution is not an either/or...as is usually the case.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

And that's different from private charity how, other than the private charity is not bound to help everyone, while the government generally is?

If you are truly that dense, then there's no point in trying to explain, and if you are not that dense, then you are deliberately being disingenuous, which means you have no interest in an informative exchange of ideas and are merely being argumentative for the sake of arguing.


In case anyone else is curious, however, the core question remains:

is the government actually "helping" disadvantaged people? or are well-to-do people merely discharging their social obligations to others by hiring the government so that they can feel good about themselves without any true regard to whether the programs in fact actually deliverany true "help" or not?


Do you really truly believe in your heart of hearts that if I personally hand you food when you are hungry prepared and delvered from my own private kitchen, and we look each other in the eye and shake each other's hand, that this situation is no different than the situation in which some intrusive bureaucrat confiscates my food by force, takes a very hefty slice off the top to cover their overhead, and then distributes that food to someone else because the have some nebulous "right" to be fed by the government?

If you look through the Declaration of Indepedence and the US Constitution, there is no right to any tangible goods at all*, anywhere*.




While I have frequently used the conservative perspective, this time my argument is from the left: let's talk about the poor, the suffering, and disadvantaged, but let's look at it from their point of view. What do they need?

There is substantial professional class that has a strong vested economic interest in maintaining dependency among people, because the more dependency there is, the more jobs they have and the more money they can make.

There also are quite a few decent people of good will who mean well. There is an ingrained cognitive bias that we need to feel good about ourselves, and so as long as we can demonstrate we are doing "something" we can then rest more easily: the focus however is on the "something" that makes us feel good, only secondarily might some of us ask whether our proferred "help" is actually helpful. We think it should be, and so we stop there. Just because we think it should be doesn't mean that it actually is, yet the latter question makes too many of us too uncomfortable actually to think about it. It is human nature to deflect that discomfort rather than use it as a warning sign and ask difficult challenging questions.

Yet that is the place from which this challenge issues. John Kerry owns five home, he claims he wants to help "the homeless", yet no homeless people are ever invited to spend any time in any of those five homes. Do we believe what he says, or do we believe what he does?






* Except for the 2nd Amendment.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Its a big enough problem for both the govt and the private sector including the church. The solution is not an either/or...as is usually the case.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 5mn_Major again.


Very true. When we move from debating theory to implementing a practical solution, there is always the "free rider" problem. As Unofun mentioned, if in practice we rely solely on private charity, then some people will contribute nothing, and we can't have that, can we? not with envy so prevalent in our society these days!


The core problem is that societal problems are being exacerbated by social welfare programs. We say want to promote home ownership, yet tens of thousands of people have lost their homes as a direct result of programs designed to increase home ownership! Why? because the programs were not designed to help people, they were designed to make us feel better about ourselves.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

is the government actually "helping" disadvantaged people?[/SIZE]

So merely replacing "government" with "private charity" changes everything you're saying? How the hell does that logic go?

If the G-men provide you with a meal, that's making you dependent on the assistance of others. But if a Red Cross worker provides you the exact same meal, that somehow doesn't make you dependent on the assistance of others?

I got news for you; the major charities, corporations, and other NGO's are as full of "intrusive bureaucrats" as the government. America is not a bunch of family farms spreading through an untamed wilderness, with Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman and the bigoted general store owner engaging in family-friendly shenanigans that are resolved in a morally inoffensive manner for the betterment of the entire community on a weekly basis. We're a country of 350,000,000 people located primarily in urban and suburban areas, and relying on neighborhood churches to solve America's poverty isn't a realistic option.

I also find it funny that an actuary who's likely pushing paper around for 50 hours a week is complaining about others being faceless bureaucrats. But whatever helps you sleep at night.