The "I Can't Believe There's No Abortion Thread" Part Deux: Electric Boogaloo

[Slap Shot]

I tend to think that Kepler is right. Money isn't the obstacle. But he is also wrong.

The primary roadblock to people moving is fear. Fear of the unknown.

They are currently living paycheck to paycheck....

I know you're going to argue otherwise but you contradict yourself. People living paycheck to paycheck absolutely have money as an obstacle.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

You guys are so ready with your blah blah coastal elite blah paint by numbers narrative

As opposed to your "blah blah poors/minorities still living in red states are fascists or just dumb blah poor people are icky paint-by-numbers" narrative?

Unserious takes get unserious responses, Kep.

 

[Kepler]

Abused women don’t leave their abusive significant other because it’s “utterly dislocating”? You talk with abused women on a regular basis like I do at my work? Good god, your analogies are hot garbage.

6. 7. 8. I guess they don't know what they're talking about, either.

6. Family Expectations and Experiences. Many posted descriptions of how past experiences with violence distorted their sense of self or of healthy relationships: “I watched [my dad] beat my mom. Then I found someone just like dad,” or, “Because raised by animals, you partner with wolves.” Some mentioned family and religious pressures: “My mother told me God would disown me if I broke my marriage.”

7. Financial Constraints. Many referred to financial limitations, and these were often connected to caring for children: “I had no family, two young children, no money, and guilt because he had brain damage from a car accident.” Others were unable to keep jobs because of the abuser’s control or their injuries, and others were used financially by their abuser: “[My] ex racked up thousands of debt in my name.”

8. Isolation. A common tactic of manipulative partners is to separate their victim from family and friends. Sometimes this is physical, as one woman experienced: “I was literally trapped in the backwoods of WV, and he would use my little boy to keep me close.” Other times isolation is emotional, as one woman was told: “You can either have friends and family or you can have me.”

The analogy is correct. red state Poors are behind the eight ball and can't leave because they do not have the resources and are afraid of the isolation -- just like everybody else on this thread has been saying. Not sure what you're whining about.

 

[psych]

6. 7. 8. I guess they don't know what they're talking about, either.



The analogy is correct. red state Poors are behind the eight ball and can't leave because they do not have the resources and are afraid of the isolation -- just like everybody else on this thread has been saying. Not sure what you're whining about.

Whining? Is this what you turn to when you’re wrong? My goodness, you’re a hypocrite. You cite one article, where three of the eight reasons provided somehow act as proof that your analogy is correct? How about the other five reasons in your one article? Those point to…? I’d say take the “L”, but you’re acting like Chuck, Whalers, and Jeb, so I don’t expect you to do so. Frankly, it’s disturbing.

 

[SJHovey]

I know you're going to argue otherwise but you contradict yourself. People living paycheck to paycheck absolutely have money as an obstacle.

Well sure, it's an obstacle, but so is the need to get a new drivers license when you move to a different state. It's just not an insurmountable obstacle.

Are you telling me that the thousands upon thousands of people walking to the US from Central America or coming here from West Africa, are doing so with wheel barrows full of cash? People are taking the leap and changing where they live every single day with way less financial means than some waitress and her family in Huron, SD.

 

[Kepler]

Is this what you turn to when you’re wrong?

Good lord, the old junior high school social media trope. This is not productive. You overreacted, you were rebutted, and now you are wildly throwing out flack, desperately trying to cover your escape.

Flee, I'm not pursuing. You've shown what you are. Drop your devastating adolescent last words, gather the rubes' cheers, and let's move on to why we all hate Hovey. That's more fun.

 

[Kepler]

Well sure, it's an obstacle, but so is the need to get a new drivers license when you move to a different state. It's just not an insurmountable obstacle.

Are you telling me that the thousands upon thousands of people walking to the US from Central America or coming here from West Africa, are doing so with wheel barrows full of cash? People are taking the leap and changing where they live every single day with way less financial means than some waitress and her family in Huron, SD.

While it is way more onerous than Hovey is saying here, he is right that every refugee who comes to the US overcomes challenges incomparably more severe than leaving the slave states.

Fun factoid: the story of early American immigrants being poor is largely a myth. American immigrants prior to the 1960s were overwhelmingly from the middle and upper middle class strata of their societies, the way immigrants from Asia continue to be.

Indeed it was only when we really did started attracting the tired, poor, huddled masses in the 1970s, that Good Old Kind Honorable America blotted out the text of Lady Liberty. It didn't help, of course, that the new immigrants were the wrong color.

The Average American deeply cherishes and honors American values, right up until the instant they are slightly frightened or inconvenienced by them.

 

[MissThundercat]

Well sure, it's an obstacle, but so is the need to get a new drivers license when you move to a different state. It's just not an insurmountable obstacle.

Are you telling me that the thousands upon thousands of people walking to the US from Central America or coming here from West Africa, are doing so with wheel barrows full of cash? People are taking the leap and changing where they live every single day with way less financial means than some waitress and her family in Huron, SD.

As someone who's been poor enough to have housing instability and stay in a homeless shelter:

3x monthly income, a decent credit score, and a lack of places that fit one's budget may not be "insurmountable," but one cannot climb that mountain on their own.

 

[psych]

Good lord, the old junior high school social media trope. This is not productive. You overreacted, you were rebutted, and now you are wildly throwing out flack, desperately trying to cover your escape.

Flee, I'm not pursuing. You've shown what you are. Drop your devastating adolescent last words, gather the rubes' cheers, and let's move on to why we all hate Hovey. That's more fun.

Classic use of DARVO on your part. I’m not overreacting. I’m not fleeing. I don’t have to cover an “escape”, because quite simply, you’re wrong. Your analogy sucks. Your one article you quickly pulled from Google trying to prove your point doesn’t trump the years of experience I have in the field of psychology working as a therapist, and now nurse, with women who’ve suffered abuse at the hands of husbands, boyfriends, etc. Your quadrupling down on this is embarrassing.
As for Hovey, yeah, I enjoy making fun of him, but in reality, he’s by far the smartest conservative on this board. Furthermore, if we were talking about the topic of running a business, I would value his opinion when it comes to what it takes to own a successful one, since I assume he must be doing well for himself. More power to him.
I’ll let you escape now. Back to the topic at hand.

 

[Slap Shot]

Well sure, it's an obstacle, but so is the need to get a new drivers license when you move to a different state.

I stopped at this disingenuous b.s. Comparing getting a DL to a full on move to another state is preposterous even for you.

Cc:Kep - nor every refugee overcomes and comparing fleeing say a civil war to abortion legislation as a motivating factor is Hovey level b.s.

 

[leswp1]

Abused women don’t leave their abusive significant other because it’s “utterly dislocating”? You talk with abused women on a regular basis like I do at my work? Good god, your analogies are hot garbage.

THis and your other post helped me to type less. When I taught Nursing they did a really great mock exercise that gave people a particular background, circumstances, job, money and family members. They then entered the arena with those circumstances and had to figure out how to survive and try to move forward with things like affording food, utilities, transportation, meds, clothing, rent, etc.
It was a great way to help people understand there is a lot more than will involved in surviving. Looks like a few people on this thread could do with participating in something like that to understand you can't just dismiss circumstances and basic needs. Saying it is easier now? No. I spent my whole career caring for people who were doing their damest to move forward. Some were successful but some were OK but some were in bad straits, even with them pedaling as fast as they could. The working poor are over a barrel. Lots of the time all it takes is the car breaking down, someone getting sick, rent increase and the house of cards falls down.

Maybe the mindset may hold true for those who are childless it they are willing to screw the upper generations. There is no way it should be considered OK to put kids at risk of being without food or a roof while taking a leap of faith.

Do genealogy for a hobby. The statement that most of the people coming over here were not dirt poor holds true for most of what I find. ALmost all of the people I have researched were not in a situation where their last dollar was spent on passage. They had large social networks that were established when they came or knew someone who knew someone. Moving now this is NOT what you usually see.

 

[St. Clown]

Only 43% of Americans state that they could cover the cost of an emergency if it were $1,000.

https://fortune.com/recommends/banking/57-percent-of-americans-cant-afford-a-1000-emergency-expense/

I doubt those who can afford that low threshold are the people being discussed here.

 

[psych]

THis and your other post helped me to type less. When I taught Nursing they did a really great mock exercise that gave people a particular background, circumstances, job, money and family members. They then entered the arena with those circumstances and had to figure out how to survive and try to move forward with things like affording food, utilities, transportation, meds, clothing, rent, etc.
It was a great way to help people understand there is a lot more than will involved in surviving. Looks like a few people on this thread could do with participating in something like that to understand you can't just dismiss circumstances and basic needs. Saying it is easier now? No. I spent my whole career caring for people who were doing their damest to move forward. Some were successful but some were OK but some were in bad straits, even with them pedaling as fast as they could. The working poor are over a barrel. Lots of the time all it takes is the car breaking down, someone getting sick, rent increase and the house of cards falls down.

Maybe the mindset may hold true for those who are childless it they are willing to screw the upper generations. There is no way it should be considered OK to put kids at risk of being without food or a roof while taking a leap of faith.

Do genealogy for a hobby. The statement that most of the people coming over here were not dirt poor holds true for most of what I find. ALmost all of the people I have researched were not in a situation where their last dollar was spent on passage. They had large social networks that were established when they came or knew someone who knew someone. Moving now this is NOT what you usually see.

I did a similar poverty exercise my second semester of nursing school. I loved it. One of my favorite things I did in school. I was a 60-something disabled woman living with her son, daughter-in-law, and three kids. I basically had to forego my medication every other day because we couldn’t afford it.

 

[Kepler]

Only 43% of Americans state that they could cover the cost of an emergency if it were $1,000.

https://fortune.com/recommends/banki...gency-expense/

I doubt those who can afford that low threshold are the people being discussed here.

A state-forced pregnancy costs a lot more than $1000.

 

[dxmnkd316]

The question is which sword is sharpest and closest to your neck.

If you're fleeing a civil war, keeping up with the kardashians isn't a priority and you start walking. If you have a theoretical threat like lack of safe abortions, getting shot by police, being assaulted by bigots, etc. it's not the same. It's a risk your mind evaluates and weighs against your worldly possessions and lifestyle. A theoretical threat is not the same as a civil war.

Could people drop everything and start walking? Yep. and if it comes to that, people will. There's always a choice. Which i think is Kepler's point, just presented... abrasively.

At what level of danger are you willing to become a refugee? And what are the blue states doing to help them?

 

[Jimjamesak]

And what are the blue states doing to help them?

This is the important question to all of this. Because the answer to this question right now is “not a GD thing”.

 

[MissThundercat]

The question is which sword is sharpest and closest to your neck.

If you're fleeing a civil war, keeping up with the kardashians isn't a priority and you start walking. If you have a theoretical threat like lack of safe abortions, getting shot by police, being assaulted by bigots, etc. it's not the same. It's a risk your mind evaluates and weighs against your worldly possessions and lifestyle. A theoretical threat is not the same as a civil war.

Could people drop everything and start walking? Yep. and if it comes to that, people will. There's always a choice. Which i think is Kepler's point, just presented... abrasively.

At what level of danger are you willing to become a refugee? And what are the blue states doing to help them?

In my case, if MI reverses course and becomes a hellscape like TX/FL/MO, then yes, I'm headed around Lake Michigan to MSP, where my community has a broad, thriving presence. I would love to attend a Twin Cities PRIDE event!

 

[dxmnkd316]

In my case, if MI reverses course and becomes a hellscape like TX/FL/MO, then yes, I'm headed around Lake Michigan to MSP, where my community has a broad, thriving presence. I would love to attend a Twin Cities PRIDE event!

Even if Minnesota goes red again, MSP will almost certainly be a good spot to land. There's almost zero chance they roll back LGBT protections. If that happens, it's ALL hit the fan and I'll be already heading to the northern border with a coyote.

 

[Kepler]

The question is which sword is sharpest and closest to your neck.

If you're fleeing a civil war, keeping up with the kardashians isn't a priority and you start walking. If you have a theoretical threat like lack of safe abortions, getting shot by police, being assaulted by bigots, etc. it's not the same. It's a risk your mind evaluates and weighs against your worldly possessions and lifestyle. A theoretical threat is not the same as a civil war.

Could people drop everything and start walking? Yep. and if it comes to that, people will. There's always a choice. Which i think is Kepler's point, just presented... abrasively.

At what level of danger are you willing to become a refugee? And what are the blue states doing to help them?

I genuinely was not trying to be abrasive. I was merely saying the apparently unsayable: as the Nazis turn up the heat, people have a choice.

Now personally I wish they would make the easier choice and get to the polls.

I'm advocating the blue states treat indigent red state emigrees as full scale refugees. They are fleeing a humanitarian crisis and political oppression. The red states are a lame CSA cosplay now. Come with us if you want to live. We're richer, smarter, healthier, more ethical, and more American. Your children have a future here; by staying in the red states you condemn them to poverty, ignorance, disease, hatred, and violence.

 

[leswp1]

The question is which sword is sharpest and closest to your neck.

If you're fleeing a civil war, keeping up with the kardashians isn't a priority and you start walking. If you have a theoretical threat like lack of safe abortions, getting shot by police, being assaulted by bigots, etc. it's not the same. It's a risk your mind evaluates and weighs against your worldly possessions and lifestyle. A theoretical threat is not the same as a civil war.

Could people drop everything and start walking? Yep. and if it comes to that, people will. There's always a choice. Which i think is Kepler's point, just presented... abrasively.

At what level of danger are you willing to become a refugee? And what are the blue states doing to help them?

My first thought? Well, our federal tax dollars are pretty much supporting what ever safety net, medical services the Red States have. They are not funding anything themselves. The disparity between what Red States use and what they pay in is ridiculous. They are parasites that whine they have to pay taxes.

The Blue States are also doing a fair amount to support access to care for women - stats of out of State patients arriving for care is really, really scary. It reminds me of the underground railroad for women instead of slaves.

How would you envision just drop everything and walk playing out? Where would they be aiming to go to? A true question.

Have taken care of refugees that emigrated and war refugees. The stories of people attempting to emigrate to here are not usually drop and walk. Most of them took time to plan, attempted to marshal resources, paid money, have contact with someone here they know or who claims to offer assistance, have supplies and a semblance of a plan however unrealistic. If you are talking about war refugees their situation is more sudden but usually involves a group of people who need to move all at once and they have each other to help. They go to a waystation and then go from there. Again, the endpoint has some planning to it.

I struggle to see how either of these things applies to folks in country.