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The "I Can't Believe There's No Abortion Thread" Part Deux: Electric Boogaloo
- Thread starter MissThundercat
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Deutsche Gopher Fan
Registered User
And lost in all this legal crap is the woman’s choice. If she wants to birth a baby missing half its brain and let it suffer for the minutes it will be alive, she should be able to make that choice. Which i believe is what doctors want too. Many women will choose to terminate to spare the suffering, some may not, but to be forced to give birth is inhumane.
but I guess conservative men should be allowed to tell her what to do
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
The Texas law allows abortion if "the fetus has a severe and irreversible abnormality, identified by reliable diagnostic procedures."
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/HS/htm/HS.170.htm
reliable....substantial....irreversible....
This law is just taunting doctors - absolutely DARING them to gamble with their careers in the courts over their lawyers' ability to argue semantics and medical vs. legal definitions.
...just like the good little baby Jesus intended.
This law is just taunting doctors - absolutely DARING them to gamble with their careers in the courts over their lawyers' ability to argue semantics and medical vs. legal definitions.
...just like the good little baby Jesus intended.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Like I said, let's see what happens when 75 thousand doctors get hauled up before the Gilead star chamber.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Yes, you cash our interstate welfare checks like pros.
Beggar isn't a job.
Just stop doing that, today. End all federal taxes. Every state collects the taxes they want. Everything is user fees, right down to the military. The blue states can tax high and support western European economies, the red states can tax low and create their Somalian paradises. The federal government has no taxation powers and no state sends any money to any other state.
Sit back and watch.
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leswp1
New member
OK, I can't help myself. I know there are others who believe the un-named poster is being obtuse but I will respond to what I think is an honest belief of many. Also to the comment that if Doctors rebelled en masse that they would prevail.
-The Provider has the ability to make a decision in good faith to perform a procedure in the exceptions that are outlined. These are SUBJECTIVE decisions because there is no way to list every condition, exception, way to provide proof the decision is warranted. There are some Providers that do not believe in exceptions and are willing to testify against their colleagues no matter how simple this seems to a layperson.
-There are some places that have made it illegal to counsel the patient regarding all the options. In some States the Provider in the ad would be in jeopardy for mentioning the possibility of termination, facilitating the patients options by providing information where the recommended care could be discussed or obtained. I am in MA. I can be sued for discussing all options if I see someone from some of these States.
-Any time information is given, a decision is made, intervention occurs, the Provider can immediately be sued d/t the vigilante provisions in many of the laws. There will always be someone willing to take $$ to be an expert saying this should not have occurred. Even if the case is dismissed that means legal counsel has to be paid, time spent in order to get it thrown out. Then you have the elected Prosecutors pandering the foolish- they can make lots of waves by pursuing those who are trying to care for patients
-Facilities are not willing to take the risk of having to constantly be in court- they are going to put in place multiple hurdles, erm systems, to attempt to protect themselves. These entities are not and have never been patient focused. They are finance focused and the bottom line always wins. I have already rec'd cautionary emails from my professional organizations along with offers for ways to protect myself, seminars for how to navigate this. Basically no one is sure where things stand. In MA I can be sued, lose my license and my Nat'l Board Cert if I do not offer advice and facilitate care chosen by the patient. In some States I will be committing a felony if I do this. No one is sure what happens re Board Certification, liability in States where I do not offer gold standard care.
-Providers are at the mercy of the medical/nursing boards and the ability to obtain liability insurance in order to practice. (my insurance as a non-practicing person who is certified in Family Practice DOUBLED this year- if I was in Practice, doing OB it would have probably been at least 4X as much). Although there is 'safety' in numbers if they chose one person or a couple of people to be the scapegoats this can mean the end of a career, loss of license, make one uninsurable. With the current Supreme Court gone rogue and not following precedent this may be not be defensible.
In a world before the Supreme Court decided to ignore set law this would all be moot. Now, there is no back up. You will see numerous people get out of the OBGYN specialty or have liability insurance be so expensive that it will be unaffordable. One is taught to never rely on Liability insurance provided by your work place- they can agree to settle without your consent and this will affect your future rates, ability to apply for positions, cert, licensure. There are a lot of people who will be priced out of the market
THe assumption that all Providers will stand together would be lovely but it is not true and unless it is it is a massive risk.
-The Provider has the ability to make a decision in good faith to perform a procedure in the exceptions that are outlined. These are SUBJECTIVE decisions because there is no way to list every condition, exception, way to provide proof the decision is warranted. There are some Providers that do not believe in exceptions and are willing to testify against their colleagues no matter how simple this seems to a layperson.
-There are some places that have made it illegal to counsel the patient regarding all the options. In some States the Provider in the ad would be in jeopardy for mentioning the possibility of termination, facilitating the patients options by providing information where the recommended care could be discussed or obtained. I am in MA. I can be sued for discussing all options if I see someone from some of these States.
-Any time information is given, a decision is made, intervention occurs, the Provider can immediately be sued d/t the vigilante provisions in many of the laws. There will always be someone willing to take $$ to be an expert saying this should not have occurred. Even if the case is dismissed that means legal counsel has to be paid, time spent in order to get it thrown out. Then you have the elected Prosecutors pandering the foolish- they can make lots of waves by pursuing those who are trying to care for patients
-Facilities are not willing to take the risk of having to constantly be in court- they are going to put in place multiple hurdles, erm systems, to attempt to protect themselves. These entities are not and have never been patient focused. They are finance focused and the bottom line always wins. I have already rec'd cautionary emails from my professional organizations along with offers for ways to protect myself, seminars for how to navigate this. Basically no one is sure where things stand. In MA I can be sued, lose my license and my Nat'l Board Cert if I do not offer advice and facilitate care chosen by the patient. In some States I will be committing a felony if I do this. No one is sure what happens re Board Certification, liability in States where I do not offer gold standard care.
-Providers are at the mercy of the medical/nursing boards and the ability to obtain liability insurance in order to practice. (my insurance as a non-practicing person who is certified in Family Practice DOUBLED this year- if I was in Practice, doing OB it would have probably been at least 4X as much). Although there is 'safety' in numbers if they chose one person or a couple of people to be the scapegoats this can mean the end of a career, loss of license, make one uninsurable. With the current Supreme Court gone rogue and not following precedent this may be not be defensible.
In a world before the Supreme Court decided to ignore set law this would all be moot. Now, there is no back up. You will see numerous people get out of the OBGYN specialty or have liability insurance be so expensive that it will be unaffordable. One is taught to never rely on Liability insurance provided by your work place- they can agree to settle without your consent and this will affect your future rates, ability to apply for positions, cert, licensure. There are a lot of people who will be priced out of the market
THe assumption that all Providers will stand together would be lovely but it is not true and unless it is it is a massive risk.
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The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Excerpt from Texas self-defense law: " ... the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary ..."
Reliable and substantial are (I agree) vague, as is reasonably. Irreversible seems finite, but how about immediately? One second, seven seconds, thirty?
That's how laws are written and why we have courts to interpret what was written.
leswp1
New member
Things are already a mess- Board Certification in OBGYN is being affected. This should be make even the most thought adverse folks stop to consider. From one of the Journals I subscribe to.
"Texas off the table for ob.gyn. board exams"
...Pregnant exam-takers also feared having to seek care for potential complications in Texas....
“We see no justifiable reason to mandate in-person oral board exams in a state that restricts basic healthcare of pregnant people and whose laws encourage vigilante targeting of physicians who perform abortions,” ....
...Alice Abernathy, MD, a national clinician scholar in obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, signed the petition and would be required to travel to Texas for her certification exam next year if ABOG’s future exam cycles are held in person....“My job is straightforward – I take care of patients. I will not expose myself to risk of prosecution for delivering the highest standard of comprehensive reproductive health care to my patients,” Dr. Abernathy told this news organization.
https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article...iLARI50lp1OVcw
"Texas off the table for ob.gyn. board exams"
...Pregnant exam-takers also feared having to seek care for potential complications in Texas....
“We see no justifiable reason to mandate in-person oral board exams in a state that restricts basic healthcare of pregnant people and whose laws encourage vigilante targeting of physicians who perform abortions,” ....
...Alice Abernathy, MD, a national clinician scholar in obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, signed the petition and would be required to travel to Texas for her certification exam next year if ABOG’s future exam cycles are held in person....“My job is straightforward – I take care of patients. I will not expose myself to risk of prosecution for delivering the highest standard of comprehensive reproductive health care to my patients,” Dr. Abernathy told this news organization.
https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article...iLARI50lp1OVcw
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Basically if you are a woman I wish you a lot of luck getting proper Health Care in Texas and a number of other states. North Dakota as I understand it is losing it's last abortion clinic. They are moving to Minnesota in hopes of still serving women from North Dakota via the "supposed" travel option. That will be illegal in all 50 states soon.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/us/north-dakota-abortion-clinic-moving-minnesota/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/us/north-dakota-abortion-clinic-moving-minnesota/index.html
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Registered User
The mess that all this is creating for physicians is enormous.
but next time a physician is being sued, or can’t afford their insurance, or the next time a woman has to birth a deformed baby or bleed for 10 days straight with dead fetal tissue, or lose her fertility after ectopic ruptured- they will think, gosh well gas prices were high so this is the answer
but next time a physician is being sued, or can’t afford their insurance, or the next time a woman has to birth a deformed baby or bleed for 10 days straight with dead fetal tissue, or lose her fertility after ectopic ruptured- they will think, gosh well gas prices were high so this is the answer
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act gave the Abolitionist Movement rocket fuel and led to the planks in the Lincoln platform that caused the South to go traitor.
My advice to the Bible Thumpers is: try it. You just try to push your hidebound Neolithic bullsh-t on the free states. You will face a backlash that will make you long for Reconstruction.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
The other thing they could do is simply issue a statement: due to the risk, we will no longer practice medicine in <sh-t hole state X>. And insurers can refuse to insure hospitals and doctors. Just kill the whole thing daid and see how much the Cross Masturbators want their fetish.
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Registered User
Yeah let the right wing church employees become birthing assistants for all the white fascist babies they want birthed. I would not be shocked to see the evangelicals go this way
first sign of trouble, they will be screaming for a OB
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
It moved to Moorhead, MN ... three miles.
The facility in Sioux Falls, SD, closed also. Another border town with MN.
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Registered User
Did you see the walkout by the incoming med school class at U of Michigan? Michigan had a well known pro life hack doctor as the keynote speaker for the incoming med students. They walked out and some old white men in the audience joined.
leswp1
New member
---Excerpt from Texas self-defense law: " ... the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary ..."
Reliable and substantial are (I agree) vague, as is reasonably. Irreversible seems finite, but how about immediately? One second, seven seconds, thirty?
That's how laws are written and why we have courts to interpret what was written.---
What is the definition of reasonable? Irreversible, etc? Any time a Provider makes a decision it would open them to needing to defend it legally. Consider the amount of time and financial resources this potentially could take to run thru the courts. There is a reason you need to pass Boards to practice medicine, be a nurse, do anything medical. As we have already seen from the way some of these laws have been written, lay people do not do due diligence but arbitrarily make stuff up. They are not based in science or known medical knowledge. They make assumptions that are scientifically/medically incorrect. This means there will also be a need to address the invalid assumptions when defending against lawsuits
Reliable and substantial are (I agree) vague, as is reasonably. Irreversible seems finite, but how about immediately? One second, seven seconds, thirty?
That's how laws are written and why we have courts to interpret what was written.---
What is the definition of reasonable? Irreversible, etc? Any time a Provider makes a decision it would open them to needing to defend it legally. Consider the amount of time and financial resources this potentially could take to run thru the courts. There is a reason you need to pass Boards to practice medicine, be a nurse, do anything medical. As we have already seen from the way some of these laws have been written, lay people do not do due diligence but arbitrarily make stuff up. They are not based in science or known medical knowledge. They make assumptions that are scientifically/medically incorrect. This means there will also be a need to address the invalid assumptions when defending against lawsuits
leswp1
New member
This is lovely in a daydream but
a) the knuckle draggers have not been impressed with >1million deaths due to stupidity- their friends, relatives, children died, facilities were unable to handle volume and folks died of other conditions, etc. They were OK with it.
b) how do Providers reconcile that with do no harm
c) not everyone has enough liquid assets to be able to leave
d) many of these people have legal, binding contracts that were not written in a way that allows them to leave just because they live in a place that has full on lost their collective mind
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Those Catholics, they want a woman to die because of an ectopic pregnancy or cancerous uterus. Right?
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