Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
They're having a bad year this time around, maybe they will fall 1 spot
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The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
- Thread starter Fighting Sioux 23
- Start date
Biddco
Follow me on Twitter: @Biddco
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
I am surprised to see Michigan State so high. They do have three titles but all three of those teams have been the worst teams to win an NCAA title. But I suppose the formula that doesn't matter. UMD's 2018 team had the most losses of any national champion, but it still counts.
I am surprised to see Michigan State so high. They do have three titles but all three of those teams have been the worst teams to win an NCAA title. But I suppose the formula that doesn't matter. UMD's 2018 team had the most losses of any national champion, but it still counts.
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Because Michigan St. has been down for quite awhile now it's easy to forget that they were a top program for about 25 years, from the early 80's until the mid-2000's. I think they made the tournament something like 23 out of 27 years, or something like that, had a number of Frozen Four appearances, were a top seed numerous times, and were consistently fighting with Michigan for CCHA tournament and regular season titles. I think they won something like 8 regular season championships and another 10-11 CCHA playoff championships. It's my guess that the CCHA championships and that 25 year stretch of pretty sustained competitiveness is where MSU gets its edge over UMD.
Because Michigan St. has been down for quite awhile now it's easy to forget that they were a top program for about 25 years, from the early 80's until the mid-2000's. I think they made the tournament something like 23 out of 27 years, or something like that, had a number of Frozen Four appearances, were a top seed numerous times, and were consistently fighting with Michigan for CCHA tournament and regular season titles. I think they won something like 8 regular season championships and another 10-11 CCHA playoff championships. It's my guess that the CCHA championships and that 25 year stretch of pretty sustained competitiveness is where MSU gets its edge over UMD.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Union has a fairly comfortable lead for the 25 spot. Realistically, one of the following would need to occur: (1) Quinnipiac or Miami go on a run and make it to another national title game; or (2) one of Dartmouth, Ferris State, SCSU, Northeastern, Colgate, Ohio State or Massachusetts Lowell go on a run and win the national championship. Of course, that is just over the course of the next season. We will see where the Dutchmen are at the end of the 2020s.
Duluth had one of the top 5 or so decades in the history of the sport. Winning 3 titles in a decade is pretty impressive. Only Michigan (5 titles in the 50s), Denver (4 titles in the 60s), BU (3 titles in the 70s), Minnesota (3 titles in the 70s), and North Dakota (3 titles in the 80s) can claim such an accomplishment. They deserve to be in the Top 10. FWIW, UMD was 20th coming into the decade. Nice jump for the Bulldogs.
Depending on what the teams surrounding them do, Cornell has a very good chance to push into the Top 10. A trip to the Frozen Four would almost certainly be enough, and a regional final appearance could do the trick. Moreover, as you recognized, a national title could vault them up to #9, but would probably require Duluth faltering down the stretch.
As for the Big 7, it will be a difficult group to catch. I would bet good money that the Big 7 won't change this decade or even the next. Unless of course Duluth just wins the title every season.
Bingo. Michigan State has 27 NCAA Tournament appearances (more than Wisconsin), 30 NCAA Tournament victories (more than anyone below them, sans Maine (tied with 30)), and 11 Frozen Fours (more than anyone below them, sans Harvard (13) and Maine (tied with 11)). Throw in a bunch of CCHA titles (and a few WCHA titles), and of course their three national titles, and the Spartans have the hardware to hang with anyone outside the Big 7. They are slipping though. Unless they turn things around, I would not be surprised to see MSU lose their grip on the 8 spot by the end of the decade.
Michigan State's 1965-1966 team is the lowest ranked national champion of all time (at #611 overall per my rankings). They were barely a .500 team (16-13-0), with a losing conference record (9-11-0). Yale's 2012-2013 national title squad was at least 10 games above .500, although still the second-lowest ranked champion (at #502). Michigan State's 2006-2007 team was also in the bottom ten for champions (at #389), but their 1985-1986 title squad was pretty good overall (#91).
Union has a fairly comfortable lead for the 25 spot. Realistically, one of the following would need to occur: (1) Quinnipiac or Miami go on a run and make it to another national title game; or (2) one of Dartmouth, Ferris State, SCSU, Northeastern, Colgate, Ohio State or Massachusetts Lowell go on a run and win the national championship. Of course, that is just over the course of the next season. We will see where the Dutchmen are at the end of the 2020s.
Duluth had one of the top 5 or so decades in the history of the sport. Winning 3 titles in a decade is pretty impressive. Only Michigan (5 titles in the 50s), Denver (4 titles in the 60s), BU (3 titles in the 70s), Minnesota (3 titles in the 70s), and North Dakota (3 titles in the 80s) can claim such an accomplishment. They deserve to be in the Top 10. FWIW, UMD was 20th coming into the decade. Nice jump for the Bulldogs.
Depending on what the teams surrounding them do, Cornell has a very good chance to push into the Top 10. A trip to the Frozen Four would almost certainly be enough, and a regional final appearance could do the trick. Moreover, as you recognized, a national title could vault them up to #9, but would probably require Duluth faltering down the stretch.
As for the Big 7, it will be a difficult group to catch. I would bet good money that the Big 7 won't change this decade or even the next. Unless of course Duluth just wins the title every season.
Bingo. Michigan State has 27 NCAA Tournament appearances (more than Wisconsin), 30 NCAA Tournament victories (more than anyone below them, sans Maine (tied with 30)), and 11 Frozen Fours (more than anyone below them, sans Harvard (13) and Maine (tied with 11)). Throw in a bunch of CCHA titles (and a few WCHA titles), and of course their three national titles, and the Spartans have the hardware to hang with anyone outside the Big 7. They are slipping though. Unless they turn things around, I would not be surprised to see MSU lose their grip on the 8 spot by the end of the decade.
Michigan State's 1965-1966 team is the lowest ranked national champion of all time (at #611 overall per my rankings). They were barely a .500 team (16-13-0), with a losing conference record (9-11-0). Yale's 2012-2013 national title squad was at least 10 games above .500, although still the second-lowest ranked champion (at #502). Michigan State's 2006-2007 team was also in the bottom ten for champions (at #389), but their 1985-1986 title squad was pretty good overall (#91).
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Well, I was able to input the data from this season into the formula. Obviously, no huge risers/fallers (points wise) given the lack of Conference Tournaments and the NCAA Tournament, but still some changes. I will probably just post the entire list at once, but I'll give it a few weeks.
Well, I was able to input the data from this season into the formula. Obviously, no huge risers/fallers (points wise) given the lack of Conference Tournaments and the NCAA Tournament, but still some changes. I will probably just post the entire list at once, but I'll give it a few weeks.
And, I still want to get you the HEA decadal writeups pre-2019/2020 season, FS23.
Also, a shout out to you in this thread for the really fine postseason tournament simulations that you ran on the other thread, which really helped us get through part of this diffucult time.
Terry Switzer
New member
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Jeff Sauer won a National Championship his first year a Wisconsin.
Jeff Sauer won a National Championship his first year a Wisconsin.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Yep. After being a head coach for a dozen seasons.
Terry Switzer
New member
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Up to 11 as they say in Spinal tap. Great Movie.
Up to 11 as they say in Spinal tap. Great Movie.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
little late, but....
not withstanding the overall rank, how did bc squeeze ahead of bu in the 2018-19 rank?
bu was 2 games under .500, bc was 8
bu had a -5 goal differential, bc -20
bc also was oh-fer in occ games Mookie believes. that hadda hurt, no?
so reading here, bc was 58th in points rank for the year with -0.495 and bu was 60th (!!!!) with -1.4849
hmmmmmmm
little late, but....
not withstanding the overall rank, how did bc squeeze ahead of bu in the 2018-19 rank?
bu was 2 games under .500, bc was 8
bu had a -5 goal differential, bc -20
bc also was oh-fer in occ games Mookie believes. that hadda hurt, no?
so reading here, bc was 58th in points rank for the year with -0.495 and bu was 60th (!!!!) with -1.4849
hmmmmmmm
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #60
Without doing a deep dive into the numbers, I would guess it came down to (in no particular order): (1) BC went 1-0-1 against BU (the Terriers scored a whopping one goal in the series); (2) BC went to the Hockey East Championship Game (BU lost in the Semis); (3) BC had an All-American (BU did not); and (4) BC went 6-7-1 against former champions (BU went 2-6-3).
Also, I don't recall off the top of my head whether there were any errors that I caught for BU that had an adverse effect on their overall score (YOY overall score is how I calculate the yearly changes). Losing 1.4849 points is pretty high given BU's season, so it could very well have been an error that was corrected after last year that caused them to drop as such.
little late, but....
not withstanding the overall rank, how did bc squeeze ahead of bu in the 2018-19 rank?
bu was 2 games under .500, bc was 8
bu had a -5 goal differential, bc -20
bc also was oh-fer in occ games Mookie believes. that hadda hurt, no?
so reading here, bc was 58th in points rank for the year with -0.495 and bu was 60th (!!!!) with -1.4849
hmmmmmmm
Without doing a deep dive into the numbers, I would guess it came down to (in no particular order): (1) BC went 1-0-1 against BU (the Terriers scored a whopping one goal in the series); (2) BC went to the Hockey East Championship Game (BU lost in the Semis); (3) BC had an All-American (BU did not); and (4) BC went 6-7-1 against former champions (BU went 2-6-3).
Also, I don't recall off the top of my head whether there were any errors that I caught for BU that had an adverse effect on their overall score (YOY overall score is how I calculate the yearly changes). Losing 1.4849 points is pretty high given BU's season, so it could very well have been an error that was corrected after last year that caused them to drop as such.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Thought that I would put together a quick post to: (1) boost this thread up so I can find it easier; and (2) give a general overview on how the Frozen Four could shake up the rankings.
With the addition of Long Island, we're now at 61 teams...so Bentley (likely) won't be last.
As for the Frozen Four's impact, I'm not sure if Minnesota Duluth can jump Michigan State for the #8 spot with a title...but it will be close.
Mankato probably stands to make the biggest leap with a title, and SCSU or UMass could conceivably jump into the top 25 if they were to win it all. In other words, Union could wind up at #26 after this season!
Also, for those that track such things, if SCSU, UMass, or Mankato win their first title, that program's w-l-t records would be added into the record against previous champions portion of the formula. That generally benefits their conference mates (and to a lesser extent, former conference mates). So, Hockey East teams would likely benefit if the Minutemen captured the title. NCHC teams would see a boost (as well as probably some of SCSU's old WCHA rivals) if the Huskies won it all. WCHA teams (and similar to SCSU, some of Mankato's old WCHA rivals) would probably see a rise if the Mavericks win it all.
With the addition of Long Island, we're now at 61 teams...so Bentley (likely) won't be last.
As for the Frozen Four's impact, I'm not sure if Minnesota Duluth can jump Michigan State for the #8 spot with a title...but it will be close.
Mankato probably stands to make the biggest leap with a title, and SCSU or UMass could conceivably jump into the top 25 if they were to win it all. In other words, Union could wind up at #26 after this season!
Also, for those that track such things, if SCSU, UMass, or Mankato win their first title, that program's w-l-t records would be added into the record against previous champions portion of the formula. That generally benefits their conference mates (and to a lesser extent, former conference mates). So, Hockey East teams would likely benefit if the Minutemen captured the title. NCHC teams would see a boost (as well as probably some of SCSU's old WCHA rivals) if the Huskies won it all. WCHA teams (and similar to SCSU, some of Mankato's old WCHA rivals) would probably see a rise if the Mavericks win it all.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
First off, Congratulations to Massachusetts for capturing their program's first National Championship! The Minutemen are a very deserving champion and show what any program can do if they get the right leadership, character, and talent in place. I anticipate UMASS will make another pretty significant leap up in the rankings.
Second, as we have a first time champion, it will take a bit longer to put together the data than usual (plus I have a 7-day trial starting at the end of the month), so I anticipate having the rankings closer to late-May, early-June.
Third, I will probably just do a batch release (perhaps in ~10 team bursts) this year. I just simply don't have sufficient time right now to coordinate and bring together the more detailed breakdowns/writeups each year. I'll try to do that about every 5 years or so.
Second, as we have a first time champion, it will take a bit longer to put together the data than usual (plus I have a 7-day trial starting at the end of the month), so I anticipate having the rankings closer to late-May, early-June.
Third, I will probably just do a batch release (perhaps in ~10 team bursts) this year. I just simply don't have sufficient time right now to coordinate and bring together the more detailed breakdowns/writeups each year. I'll try to do that about every 5 years or so.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Just wanted to bump this thread up a bit.
I never posted the end of seasons rankings from the 2020-2021 season, so I will do my best to make sure to post the end of season rankings this year. Maybe not posting every year will build a bit more excitement in the thread? I guess we will see.
I never posted the end of seasons rankings from the 2020-2021 season, so I will do my best to make sure to post the end of season rankings this year. Maybe not posting every year will build a bit more excitement in the thread? I guess we will see.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
I haven't crunched the numbers yet for this season, but a few tidbits before tonight's game:
- The race for #1 between North Dakota and Michigan will be extremely close...likely within 1-2 points. It could come down to who wins the game tonight.
- Denver likely jumps Minnesota and into the #3 spot with a win tonight. A loss and the Pioneers likely remain at #4.
- Minnesota State is going to make a nice jump regardless. However, with a win they will likely sneak in (or be just on the cusp) of the top-25.
- The race for #1 between North Dakota and Michigan will be extremely close...likely within 1-2 points. It could come down to who wins the game tonight.
- Denver likely jumps Minnesota and into the #3 spot with a win tonight. A loss and the Pioneers likely remain at #4.
- Minnesota State is going to make a nice jump regardless. However, with a win they will likely sneak in (or be just on the cusp) of the top-25.
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Any chance you'd like to update these?
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
I've really let this thread go...but the interest seemed to dip doing it every season. However, for you, I will post the 2021-2022 end of season rankings this weekend. : p