The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

[JDUBBS1280]

I say God exists....you say prove it...I say prove he doesn't...that's circular logic my friend and it will get you no where....how are you so sure the CHL did not dispute it...can you prove they didn't? (See circular logic)

You stated a number gleamed off of one article written five years ago....five years in hockey is a lifetime first off and secondly if that is all you can find concerning the CHL education package and its participation rates, then your body of evidence is virtually non existent. One dubious source does not make a fact.

I sourced my info, you're disputing it. If you want to break the circle, then provide proof it isn't accurate. You're so sure it isn't accurate that it shouldn't be tough to find at least one source that discredits that info. Otherwise, how can you be so sure it isn't accurate?

Unless of course, the info is in fact accurate.

 

[jnacc]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

How many kids know the extent to which NCAA schools are interested in them at 15-16? Not many. Certainly not ANY Pewees - In Minnesota OR Michigan.

Again, misrepresenting what I say. By "options" I mean which schools are interested and what type of scholarships are available.

You understand very little of the recruiting process my friend....actually all of the elite kids know who or who isn't interested by the time they are 15-16. My point, however, was that even young hockey players understand what the CHL and NCAA options are and how the NCAA closes the door on the CHL route...no one is being taken by surprise by some evil CHL emissary running amok in the land of small lakes.

 

[jnacc]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

I sourced my info, you're disputing it. If you want to break the circle, then provide proof it isn't accurate. You're so sure it isn't accurate that it shouldn't be tough to find at least one source that discredits that info. Otherwise, how can you be so sure it isn't accurate?

Unless of course, the info is in fact accurate.

I sourced the actual number of CHL players taking advantage of their CHL education package....I further sourced articles touting the benefits of the CHL plan...you provided a link to a rabid CHL hater who quoted a number written from an article but where is that article in full describing how this percentage was obtained?...please break out your source so we can examine its merit and determine whether it is a fraud or not...if you cannot then your source is worthless.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

You understand very little of the recruiting process my friend....actually all of the elite kids know who or who isn't interested by the time they are 15-16. My point, however, was that even young hockey players understand what the CHL and NCAA options are and how the NCAA closes the door on the CHL route...no one is being taken by surprise by some evil CHL emissary running amok in the land of small lakes.

No kid knows the full extent of what NCAA options are available at that age. Many programs are very hesitant to commit (talented as he may be) a full ride to a kid at that age. And even more schools are unable to commit to an entry year to a kid that far out.

And assuming the 32% number is accurate (and I have seen no evidence to dispute it), I don't think enou kids are fully aware of the implications of all the variables that go into the decision.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I sourced the actual number of CHL players taking advantage of their CHL education package....I further sourced articles touting the benefits of the CHL plan...you provided a link to a rabid CHL hater who quoted a number written from an article but where is that article...please break out your source so we can examine its merit and determine whether it is a fraud or not...if you cannot then your source is worthless.

You gave me the # of scholarships offered, and I do thank you for that. However, you didn't provide me with the number of kids who didn't get scholarship benefits, so there is very little in regards to context in which to fully understand the relevancy of that number.

Easy fix - Have the CHL publish how many kids "pass" on scholarships. Or if it's easier, the percentage of kids who actually get scholarships. College Hockey releases graduation rates and grade point averages.

I'm sure CHL won't mind doing that. Unless of course that number makes them look bad

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

"You understand very little of the recruiting process my friend"

"Rabid hater"

Both only hurt your position. Let's be adults here. I could just as easily call you a CHL apologist and question your understanding of the process.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Engage in the discussion and elaborate, or get ignored.

 

[jnacc]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

No kid knows the full extent of what NCAA options are available at that age. Many programs are very hesitant to commit (talented as he may be) a full ride to a kid at that age. And even more schools are unable to commit to an entry year to a kid that far out.

And assuming the 32% number is accurate (and I have seen no evidence to dispute it), I don't think enou kids are fully aware of the implications of all the variables that go into the decision.

The majority of elite kids know what their true options are by the age of 16....heck there are already 18 kids 16 or younger that have committed to NCAA schools...schools contact them through bird dogs around the ages of 14-15...so yes they know where they stand. Now it is different for those not considered blue chip but even they know what to expect...

You gave me the # of scholarships offered, and I do thank you for that. However, you didn't provide me with the number of kids who didn't get scholarship benefits, so there is very little in regards to context in which to fully understand the relevancy of that number.

All you have provided is a percentage based on one source that I'm calling you out on...where is it...post it so we can see how this reporter determined the number...what is taking you so long..if it is accurate, surely you must be able to find supporting evidence..unless of course it is inaccurate and no such support exists...

Easy fix - Have the CHL publish how many kids "pass" on scholarships. I'm sure they won't mind. Unless of course that number makes them look bad

Sure as soon as the NCAA publishes how many of its players are actually on full rides and how many are writing checks to the tune of tens of thousands...and of course how many of their players graduate on time...unless of course that number makes them look bad.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

jnacc,

Have you met Dubbie before?


We all see that you are right and he is as always... well... wrong.

He'll never admit it and will continue to move the goal posts or ask you to prove that he is wrong which you will never be able to do to his satisfaction no matter how much evidence you present.

 

[Deleted member 3166]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

jnacc,

Have you met Dubbie before?


We all see that you are right and he is as always... well... wrong.

He'll never admit it and will continue to move the goal posts or ask you to prove that he is wrong which you will never be able to do to his satisfaction no matter how much evidence you present.

All the while stressing that everyone be adults about it when he isn't and can never be.
He reminds me of the kid who doesn't want to hear he's wrong by sticking his fingers in his ears while screaming "la la la, I can't hear you."

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

No kid knows the full extent of what NCAA options are available at that age.

How do you know that? If the NCAA Eligibility Center, otherwise known as the NCAA clearinghouse, is recommending HS students who are prospective student athletes register at 16-17 years old, that's a fairly good indication that HS students need to be astute enough to begin exploring their options.

There are also lots of available resources today like College Hockey Inc. for example, as well as parents, coaches and associates to assist a proactive HS athlete in making the right decision.

 

[MavHockey14]

How do you know that? If the NCAA Eligibility Center, otherwise known as the NCAA clearinghouse, is recommending HS students who are prospective student athletes register at 16-17 years old, that's a fairly good indication that HS students need to be astute enough to begin exploring their options.

There are also lots of available resources today like College Hockey Inc. for example, as well as parents, coaches and associates to assist a proactive HS athlete in making the right decision.

From my personal experience, many of the kids I played with in the spring and fall, as well as myself filled out our clearinghouse information at age 16. The best advice we got was from our parents and coaches. Kids that have the potential to play elite level hockey are almost always coached by people with fantastic connections and experience making the same decisions we were faced with.

No message board is going to play much of an impact, if any, on a decision.

How many kids know by the end of their minor year, age 16 or 17 where they're going to school? (Non athletes) my guess is a fairly large percentage..

 

[JDUBBS1280]

The majority of elite kids know what their true options are by the age of 16....heck there are already 18 kids 16 or younger that have committed to NCAA schools...schools contact them through bird dogs around the ages of 14-15...so yes they know where they stand. Now it is different for those not considered blue chip but even they know what to expect...



All you have provided is a percentage based on one source that I'm calling you out on...where is it...post it so we can see how this reporter determined the number...what is taking you so long..if it is accurate, surely you must be able to find supporting evidence..unless of course it is inaccurate and no such support exists...



Sure as soon as the NCAA publishes how many of its players are actually on full rides and how many are writing checks to the tune of tens of thousands...and of course how many of their players graduate on time...unless of course that number makes them look bad.

I sourced where that percentage came from. You've given no evidence that the percentage is wrong and it was never retracted so the CHL never disputed it.

It's really easy. Give me the number of kids who didn't get scholarships so that we can put the number of scholarships into perspective. It's not that hard.

Yes, there are kids that have already accepted scholarship offers by 16, but I think those players are in the minority. It would be interesting to take a look at Heisenberg's recruiting page and see how young the average college hockey player is when he verbally commits. My guess is that age is above 16 years old.

The NCAA allows teams to offer 18 scholarships. And every player that plays NCAA Hockey has to be enrolled in class and maintain a certain grade point average.

The big difference is that 100% of the kids who are offered a scholarship by an NCAA school at the time they make the NCAA vs CHL decision use that scholarship, but it appears as though only 32% of the kids who go to the CHL actually use their scholarship benefits.

Yes, not all kids who play NCAA hockey receive scholarships, but those players know up-front that they won't be getting scholarships to play. Before they make their decisions. I am questioning whether all the players that go thru the CHL fully understand the CHL's scholarship program because allegedly everyone who plays in the CHL is eligible to receive a scholarship, but an alarmingly few actually use them.

Again, it's not about which route is better. That depends on the kid and the situation. This is about kids fully understanding the decisions they are making and being fully aware of all of their options.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

How do you know that? If the NCAA Eligibility Center, otherwise known as the NCAA clearinghouse, is recommending HS students who are prospective student athletes register at 16-17 years old, that's a fairly good indication that HS students need to be astute enough to begin exploring their options.

There are also lots of available resources today like College Hockey Inc. for example, as well as parents, coaches and associates to assist a proactive HS athlete in making the right decision.

Harley - I never said kids aren't aware of any of their options at 15-16. I said very few if any are aware of ALL of their options at 15-16.

How many 15 year old kids do you think know exactly how many schools are willing to offer them scholarships and when exactly they'll be able to bring them in?

For the elite kids like Joey Anderson or Ryan Lindgren, maybe. But the majority of kids aren't getting scholarship offers that young.

Take a look at schools like BSU, Mankato, Tech, etc.... How many kids on their rosters were offered scholarships at 15-16?

If you want a specific example, let's use Paul Bittner. 1996-born kid. Plays for Portland. How many scholarship offers do you think he had when he committed to the CHL? He's a good player, but certainly not elite. Are you suggesting he likely wouldn't have had more scholarship offers on the table at 17-18 than he had at 15-16? If so, I disagree.

Not saying he made the wrong choice. He did what he felt was best for him. But I don't think he had a full idea of what options he would have if he took the NCAA route as a 15-16 year old.

There are other examples too. How about Corbett or Walker. Neither kid has been drafted yet. Will be interesting to see what they choose to do once they have aged out of the CHL and see what their experiences are.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

From my personal experience, many of the kids I played with in the spring and fall, as well as myself filled out our clearinghouse information at age 16. The best advice we got was from our parents and coaches. Kids that have the potential to play elite level hockey are almost always coached by people with fantastic connections and experience making the same decisions we were faced with.

No message board is going to play much of an impact, if any, on a decision.

How many kids know by the end of their minor year, age 16 or 17 where they're going to school? (Non athletes) my guess is a fairly large percentage..

My personal experience is a bit different. Not saying you are completely wrong, but I don't agree that a majority of kids who play college hockey have scholarship offers at 15-16.

That said, if a kid at 15-16 has a number of scholarship offers to consider, and understands completely what is on the table with the NCAA and CHL route, then the decision comes down to what they think is best for them.

I do think it's concerning to see figures out there that show so few kids using their educational benefits. I'd really like to see an up-to-date figure on the % of CHL kids who are utilizing the scholarship program. If it's still as low as 32%, I'd really like to know why that is and why something hasn't been done to change that.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

A great point I found in another thread on the subject.

This is paraphrased from a discussion I had with a D1 coach during a official visit.....we strongly advise our players to stay 3 years, at our school kids are 3 times more likely to finish their degree if they stay that extra year. Unless you can go straight to the show we think you're better off here in the big picture.

This helps explain the 20-30 % graduation rate of CHL players compared to 84% of college players. Starting out college as 22 or 23 year old freshman has its own set of ingrained pit falls.

The WHL is an option, and a good one, for truly gifted players but if you consider education a big piece of the puzzle the stats just don't measure up.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

Per Hammy in same thread.

I don't think anybody argues getting grades to stay in good standing at a school should be required for any scholarship. It's the other fine print that often get left out of the WHL hype by the pro-WHL rubes.

A lot of these young guys aren't going to want to shelf their pursuit of pro hockey within one year of leaving the WHL (and CIS is joke hockey so don't even start with that). Nor is any guy going to be able to retire on one contract (and certainly not when it is an AHL deal, European deal, etc). The onus for paying for your education falls on the players at that point. Hardly a fair bargain. I doubt most of these young guys are fully aware of this.

As for your stats (which you like to throw out but I see no substantiated source), it's like the old saying "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics".

 

[bucky15]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

Ohhhh no!!!! If only I had read this discussion before I let my kid play in the Q.

Thanks for preventing future mistakes like this from happening.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

Another Hammy gem.

Even then, it is hardly a case of where a kid has to choose anything at 15 or 16. Look at Ryan Gropp. He turns 17 soon. Right now (or a year from now), he could go play for Seattle. Or he could decide to play NCAA (which sounds like a real possibility for him). He's keeping his options open. His dad played NCAA hockey so he doesn't get fooled into the belief that he has to do something. Either avenue would wait and take him. The reality is there is no rush for a kid to feel like he has to go to the WHL ASAP. That's just BS to pressure kids into thinking they have to do something they don't.

Seth Jones could have gone to UND last year or play WHL. He had plenty of options as an 18 year old. Although Exiled One is correct. The best players like Jones have far more options in NCAA (where nobody owns the only rights to a prospect).

 

[Osorojo]

Re: The CHL Spin Doctors are trying to infiltrate MNHS Hockey

By its title this is a U.S. COLLEGE hockey site, not a professional farm team hockey site. A few years back the suggestion that major U.S. college hockey programs and Canadian Junior Hockey programs merge to achieve a common goal and common profit produced frantic outrage in F.I.T.S. (Fogies Immune To Satire). Now these same fogies marginalize the role of receiving a college education in the recruitment and development of young hockey players. Immunity to satire evidently confers an immunity to reason.