The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

JJ, where did it appear there was confusion about atheism? Is there a quote? I've been clear...and I am quite familiar with agnostics, one of my best friends is one.

Fade, who said without Christianity there would be no morality? I said atheists could be very moral.

Pssssst - secret for you. If you believe in the Golden Rule and kindness and forgiveness but don't really care whether God exists, you might be an atheist. /Jeff Foxworthy

Except that the First Commandment, in fact the only one that Jesus Himself said was even needed, is "Love God with all your heart and soul" (depending on your translation). It's rather difficult set aside the existence of God and focus only on Jesus's word when his own summary of all his teachings pre-supposes the existence of God. If he had said, "The Golden Rule is #1, and oh, by the way, if you happen to believe in God also, well, that's fine, too" then you might be on to something....

Help me find where I said 'I don't care if God exists'.

Jesus is the gateway to God. You may get there at some point or not at all...but you can't fall in love with someone you've never met. Try getting familiar with the Gospels, try discussing them in a group like Alpha and then you'll know more. Why not try?

Secondly, most of Jesus's words weren't even his own ideas. The Egyptians, Chinese, and others beat Jesus to the Golden Rule by thousands of years. Why do you think Jesus should get the credit? Note that I'm not arguing the value of the content - an idea that's plagiarized does not automatically become false.

So God used others to lay the groundwork. I'm guessing somehow that translates into why you think God doesn't exist or something.

So Cloud and Kepler had serious questions and of course, in this last post the 'I must go negative' side of atheism is starting rear its head again.

 

[Jimjamesak]

JJ, where did it appear there was confusion about atheism? Is there a quote? I've been clear...and I am quite familiar with agnostics, one of my best friends is one.

There's general confusion about atheism/agnosticism when it comes to wanting to keep religion out of the public sphere (which is anywhere that isn't your house or church) and the "persecution" of Christians. It's a wide swath of atheists, agnostics, and believers, not just atheists.

And SMDH at your last sentence.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I agree with keeping to yourself. However, "Public sphere" is broadly interpreted by many.

And therein lies the biggest problem, if it's not your home or your church then keep it yourselves. And if you want to put it out public, then don't get ****y and defensive when people respond negatively.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There's general confusion about atheism/agnosticism when it comes to wanting to keep religion out of the public sphere (which is anywhere that isn't your house or church) and the "persecution" of Christians. It's a wide swath of atheists, agnostics, and believers, not just atheists.

Great point. Most of the founding fathers were practicing Christians, but they were the ones who codified in the Constitution that the government had no business promoting Christianity or any other religion - not atheists. Many Christians today agree with them, but definitely not all and I doubt it's even a majority. I am sure that a majority of Christians say they agree with the principle of separation of church and state, but if you asked them about displaying the Ten Commandments, starting governmental proceedings with prayers, or banning gay marriage, I doubt you'd find that a majority actually want the state to butt out. And, they won't even recognize the cognitive dissonance of those conflicting views.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

but if you asked them about displaying the Ten Commandments, starting governmental proceedings with prayers, or banning gay marriage, I doubt you'd find that a majority actually want the state to butt out. And, they won't even recognize the cognitive dissonance of those conflicting views.

I get the impression Christians have always felt tolerance was a bone they were throwing the rest of us out of the goodness of their heart, but they got to define the parameters of tolerance. Now that everybody gets to decide what those limits are, they are calling it "oppression," but it's really just life in a pluralistic society: you don't always get your ice cream.

Just like whites had to get used to other races being truly equal, and men had to get used to women being truly equal, and straights had to get used to gays being truly equal, now Christians have to put their big girl panties on. And as with those changes, the old guard will go down swinging because that's how they were raised. This is a transitional period, and within a couple generations that kind of assumed privilege won't exist anymore, and we'll all be better for it.

Race has always been the big deal in America, anyway. Frankly, religion is no biggie -- the real state religion of America has always been money.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I get the impression Christians have always felt tolerance was a bone they were throwing us out of the goodness of their heart, but they got to define the parameters of tolerance. Now that everybody gets to decide what those limits are, they are calling it "oppression," but it's really just life in a pluralistic society: you don't always get your ice cream.

Exactly. On social media, conversations go like this:

Person A: They're taking away my right to say "God Bless America!"
Me: No one's doing that. All I'm saying is be prepared for push back. Some people might have a problem with you saying that.
Person A: YOU'RE PERSECUTING ME!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I get the impression Christians have always felt tolerance was a bone they were throwing the rest of us out of the goodness of their heart, but they got to define the parameters of tolerance.

Your post generalization adds to a threadful of evidence that atheists do not offer that same tolerance...and last check that is bigotry defined.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Your post generalization adds to a threadful of evidence that atheists do not offer that same tolerance...and last check that is bigotry defined.

Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A...

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Garrison Keillor did his show from California tonight, and his News from Home segment was rich. He understands the small town midwestern Lutheran church culture so well and pokes fun at it but with obvious affection.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A...

Wear it. Let me cast no doubt as to the state of things.

Atheism is strictly an ideology of 'no'. It adds nothing. It creates nothing. It serves no direct benefit.

The one thing supposedly that atheists attempt to claim is a 'live and let live' perspective. But the 3 or so so called atheists on this site are in fact the only ones casting consistently disparaging remarks on a non political group anywhere on USCHO. If the same was said about gays, blacks or Jews, they'd be kicked off the site tomorrow. The day we hear about atheism starting major charities, initiating worldwide disaster relief, spending time working in US urban ghettos, providing aid to victims of war, devoting their lives to saving starving children, going to Africa and fighting Ebola, then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, quit being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Wear it. Let me cast no doubt as to the state of things.

Atheism is strictly an ideology of 'no'. It adds nothing. It creates nothing. It serves no direct benefit.

Your certitude is exceeded only by your ignorance. There are plenty of good books on the subject, and I am not being paid to educate you.

 

[LynahFan]

Your certitude is exceeded only by your ignorance. There are plenty of good books on the subject, and I am not being paid to educate you.

Only the ignorant can ever be completely certain.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Wear it. Let me cast no doubt as to the state of things.

Atheism is strictly an ideology of 'no'. It adds nothing. It creates nothing. It serves no direct benefit.

The one thing supposedly that atheists attempt to claim is a 'live and let live' perspective. But the 3 or so so called atheists on this site are in fact the only ones casting consistently disparaging remarks on a non political group anywhere on USCHO. If the same was said about gays, blacks or Jews, they'd be kicked off the site tomorrow. The day we hear about atheism starting major charities, initiating worldwide disaster relief, spending time working in US urban ghettos, providing aid to victims of war, devoting their lives to saving starving children, going to Africa and fighting Ebola, then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, quit being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

It's true that Kep and crew do their share of goading people around here, but do you have any idea how sanctimonious and self-righteous this sounds?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Atheism is strictly an ideology of 'no'. It adds nothing. It creates nothing. It serves no direct benefit.

Atheism is the ideology of freeing your mind from superstition and operating strictly in the real world, governed by the real rules of math, physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, and, at the top of the pyramid, economics. It frees human beings to exercise the full measure or OUR creativity, which is the only force of creativity that has actually been observed in the universe. Religion constrains that creativity in unnatural, inefficient ways. Religion throws away the creativity that we could achieve by shackling our minds and misdirecting our efforts.

Any decisions or policies where mysticism is added to the equations is just cooking the books and necessarily results in a suboptimal result. Gay marriage is a classic example. The natural equation is People = Equal. Taking Christianity into account, it becomes People - Gays = Equal. 200 years ago, many Christians would have said the equation was People - (Gays + Blacks + Indians + Women,...) = Equal. As we have gradually battled to remove those additional terms, the equation is approaching closer and closer to the correct form of People = Equal.

The one thing supposedly that atheists attempt to claim is a 'live and let live' perspective. But the 3 or so so called atheists on this site are in fact the only ones casting consistently disparaging remarks on a non political group anywhere on USCHO. If the same was said about gays, blacks or Jews, they'd be kicked off the site tomorrow.[\QUOTE]
It would be ridiculous to make the same statements about gays, blacks, or Jews. They haven't enjoyed a millenia as the majority, wielding the power of the state to enforce their policies and morals (Jews in Israel, excepting, of course). If and when one of those groups "achieves" that feat, feel free to get back to me so see what I'm saying then.

The day we hear about atheism starting major charities, initiating worldwide disaster relief, spending time working in US urban ghettos, providing aid to victims of war, devoting their lives to saving starving children, going to Africa and fighting Ebola, then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, quit being part of the problem and start being part of the solution.

You are a fool if you think there are no atheists doing those things. Most of those efforts are led by NGOs, the UN, etc. If you think the majority of people involved in those efforts are doing so because of their belief in Christianity....SMDH, as Jimjamesak would say (new one on me - I like it).

(Have no idea why that one quote isn't working - strange. Oh well.)

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Atheism is strictly an ideology of 'no'. It adds nothing. It creates nothing. It serves no direct benefit.

The day we hear about atheism starting major charities,

https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/

initiating worldwide disaster relief,

http://atheists.org/relief
http://www.weareatheism.com/atheists-giving-aid/

spending time working in US urban ghettos,

Well I am an atheist and I do that....

providing aid to victims of war,

https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/hdrdrive

devoting their lives to saving starving children,

http://www.unicef.org/

going to Africa and fighting Ebola

https://donate.doctorswithoutborder...AZD1500A1D51&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Submitted without comment.

Bellevue police initially believed that the driver, Marilyn Perry, 62, was on her cell phone at the time of the accident, or was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. But, the investigation revealed she had not been using her phone and her system was clean. Still, police and prosecutors decided she should be charged with vehicular assault.

Authorities said Perry blamed the accident on prayer. She said she had been going through some personal problems and was praying as she drove, occasionally with her head down.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Submitted without comment.

She was relying on faith, rather than good works.

 

[Jimjamesak]

https://donate.doctorswithoutborder...AZD1500A1D51&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc

On that note, Summer Games Done Quick 2015 is raising money for Doctors Without Borders this week.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

She was relying on faith, rather than good works.

Yep. Sola fide my butt.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Atheism is the ideology of freeing your mind from superstition and operating strictly in the real world, governed by the real rules of math, physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, and, at the top of the pyramid, economics. It frees human beings to exercise the full measure or OUR creativity, which is the only force of creativity that has actually been observed in the universe. Religion constrains that creativity in unnatural, inefficient ways. Religion throws away the creativity that we could achieve by shackling our minds and misdirecting our efforts.

First, your rationale of tying 'creativity' is not about atheism...but rather about being secular (due to your referencing religion). This again means that atheism does not provide the value you are claiming here. And frankly again, means your POV is not a positive one for atheism...but again simply a negative POV.

Second, there is zero evidence for creativity being caused by atheism...no statistical, no empirical evidence. Just a suggestion based atheist's POV. Throughout history, what is the percent of truly great scientists that were staunch atheists? On the other hand, as you say...

Most of the founding fathers were practicing Christians...

Although the founding fathers had creativity 'restrained' by faith...they did just fine in creating what many believe is the longest running modern democracy in the world.

https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/
http://atheists.org/relief
http://www.weareatheism.com/atheists-giving-aid/
Well I am an atheist and I do that....
https://foundationbeyondbelief.org/hdrdrive
http://www.unicef.org/
https://donate.doctorswithoutborder...AZD1500A1D51&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc

As with Lynah's angle, Unicef and Doctors without borders are not atheist charities.

Out of all this, Foundations Beyond Belief appears to be the only legitimate one. It was only founded in 2011...very late in the charitable process. Also they are on track to do $4m this year...which puts the whole foundation on par with a single good sized Christian donation. So no, I would not call charity a natural atheist trait. Good to see someone caught fire...and I hope other atheists get tired of the comparison. Its definitely welcome and here's hoping the 7 million member atheism movement takes it beyond this effort going forward.

Serious questions about how We are Atheism/Atheists giving Aid have handled their $61k in 2013 donations...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...4cd9ba-d25f-11e4-8b1e-274d670aa9c9_story.html

2013 we are atheism tax statement...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...zbuaAP&usg=AFQjCNGnxGVzZI_zyPL2dMBCXs4-sSGcXg