The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Do we really need to keep saying we see things differently? I find your premises flawed. You find mine flawed. Seems like the dead horse has been more than beaten to death, though I guess some folks have nothing better to do.

I think the idea is to at least isolate where people disagree. The thing I find so strange is how even after explanation people often still misunderstand where the other person is coming from.

Once you get down to the way you or I fundamentally see the world, neither of us will convince the other. But it can be very interesting to try to get at the critical place where worldviews diverge, not to say "ah, there's where you went wrong!" but because it's often a lot farther up the tree than one would think -- people with the appearance of widely divergent ideas frequently have long mutually shared "trunks," and only separate somewhere near the very top of the tree. Those broad sections of shared perspective serve as a home for mutual understanding and respect, and dissipate animosity, resentment, and fear. They help people live together peaceable or even pleasantly.

 

[joecct]

I think the idea is to at least isolate where people disagree. The thing I find so strange is how even after explanation people often still misunderstand where the other person is coming from.

Once you get down to the way you or I fundamentally see the world, neither of us will convince the other. But it can be very interesting to try to get at the critical place where worldviews diverge, not to say "ah, there's where you went wrong!" but because it's often a lot farther up the tree than one would think -- people with the appearance of widely divergent ideas frequently have long mutually shared "trunks," and only separate somewhere near the very top of the tree. Those broad sections of shared perspective serve as a home for mutual understanding and respect, and dissipate animosity, resentment, and fear. They help people live together peaceable or even pleasantly.

Unless I disagree with you. Then you're a pinko socialist atheistic Communist. Or, you're a fear mongering Bible thumping homophobic racist.

That just about covers it, yes?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FYP. Believers don't think they've thrown out logic as you folks think believers have. We think you apply your logic in ways that are flawed.

Yes, that is a fair correction.

For the record, I do not think believers have thrown out logic. No one who reads the Scholastic logicians would make that mistake. There are axioms which sit outside of logic and attempts to prove them within logic must fail. Believers posit a god that can't be proven and then structure their logical analysis to include that axiom. I think that is unwarranted, but before I and other atheists congratulate ourselves for avoiding "illogical" suppositions along comes causality, which we do posit and which is every bit as unprovable within logic as god.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Unless I disagree with you. Then you're a pinko socialist atheistic Communist. Or, you're a fear mongering Bible thumping homophobic racist.

That just about covers it, yes?

Yes. The moment we disagree we have to fight to the death because ideas are more important than lives and humans are just vehicles being piloted by memetic structures that are the only actual free willed life form.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

When you say that you apply "your logic" to a situation, it's a misnomer. Logic is logic, it's the starting points and view of how the world works which makes all the difference. FlagDUDE is logical in how he conducts himself, but his conspiritorial nature completely skews everything he sees and leads him down roads that make bad movie scripts look more realistic. The same exact thing is happening here between the atheists and the Christians and Jews and Muslims and Shintoists and so-on-and-so-on.

It all is in the manner logic is applied, and we apply and understand it in certain ways differently. Not that hard a concept really. It's not like how logic is applied is a cold hard formula, especially in matters such as are being discussed here. Two people can approach the same situation, both approach it logically and come to different understandings and conclusions. Happens all the time in many walks of life.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Yes, that is a fair correction.

For the record, I do not think believers have thrown out logic. No one who reads the Scholastic logicians would make that mistake. There are axioms which sit outside of logic and attempts to prove them within logic must fail. Believers posit a god that can't be proven and then structure their logical analysis to include that axiom. I think that is unwarranted, but before I and other atheists congratulate ourselves for avoiding "illogical" suppositions along comes causality, which we do posit and which is every bit as unprovable within logic as god.

I would also say that the focus of disbelief of Atheists is different than the belief of many, probably most Christians. I also know an Atheist and he absolutely does not believe in a God that looks nothing like the God I believe in.

Atheists seem to be hung up on the 'fact' that they don't believe God exists. Christians may or may not have some doubt...but they don't worry about it. Atheists just can't get past that point, while Christians understand the value and do. Bob may have a differing opinion...but Christians are just focused on what Jesus/Bible has to say. From a real world tangible standpoint...the real value in Christianity is not whether God exists, but rather an understanding of and the implications of Jesus. What it means for me. In a way, Atheists by focusing on the existence of God, they are arguing right past us.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In a way, Atheists by focusing on the existence of God, they are arguing right past us.

This is what I mean by misunderstanding. Atheists don't believe in gods the way you don't believe in unicorns. Are you "hung up" on not believing in unicorns? Or is it more likely that you never even give unicorns a passing thought. When you're confronted with someone who staunchly believes in unicorns and says morality is based on belief in unicorns and by the way unless you believe in unicorns you're going to burn in eternal fire, to that person your lack of belief in unicorns is Really Important, whereas to you it's just one of a trillion fantasies you don't believe in.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

This is what I mean by misunderstanding. Atheists don't believe in gods the way you don't believe in unicorns. Are you "hung up" on not believing in unicorns? Or is it more likely that you never even give unicorns a passing thought. When you're confronted with someone who staunchly believes in unicorns and says morality is based on belief in unicorns and by the way unless you believe in unicorns you're going to burn in eternal fire, to that person your lack of belief in unicorns is Really Important, whereas to you it's just one of a trillion fantasies you don't believe in.

This makes pretty good sense, from my perspective. I was raised Christian, but it ceased to make any sense to me in my mid teens. I find matters of religious faith interesting because of what they tell us about humans who are not yet fully emerged from the cave, rather than what they tell us about the man in the sky. Even the issue we are struggling with here--our specie-wide inability to overcome confirmation bias--makes sense from an anthropological standpoint.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

This is what I mean by misunderstanding. Atheists don't believe in gods the way you don't believe in unicorns. Are you "hung up" on not believing in unicorns? Or is it more likely that you never even give unicorns a passing thought. When you're confronted with someone who staunchly believes in unicorns and says morality is based on belief in unicorns and by the way unless you believe in unicorns you're going to burn in eternal fire, to that person your lack of belief in unicorns is Really Important, whereas to you it's just one of a trillion fantasies you don't believe in.

See that's what I mean. IMO you're putting way too much emphasis on unicorns in your analogy (unicorn is in your passage 7 times). Part of the issue is that many think of Christianity as a worship of a God. That's actually the problem. We could worship a lamp. It does nothing...it means nothing. Christianity is a 'religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus'. At some point, I hope some of you guys get past the I just can't believe in a 'guy sitting in a cloud' stuff.

The last part of your post looks like something out of horror movie. I have not heard anything remotely like that from any Christian in person for decades. And frankly if you're forming your primary opinions on that stuff from a self proclaimed Christian...then you are letting him/her create the debate and subsequently your mindset for you.

This makes pretty good sense, from my perspective. I was raised Christian, but it ceased to make any sense to me in my mid teens. I find matters of religious faith interesting because of what they tell us about humans who are not yet fully emerged from the cave, rather than what they tell us about the man in the sky. Even the issue we are struggling with here--our specie-wide inability to overcome confirmation bias--makes sense from an anthropological standpoint.

Then sorry...but you haven't really encountered the real deal.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

See that's what I mean. IMO you're putting way too much emphasis on unicorns in your analogy (unicorn is in your passage 7 times). Part of the issue is that many think of Christianity as a worship of a God. That's actually the problem. We could worship a lamp. It does nothing...it means nothing. Christianity is a 'religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus'. At some point, I hope some of you guys get past the I just can't believe in a 'guy sitting in a cloud' stuff.

That reads like you're trying to turn Christians into something like Buddhists by eliminating God from the equation and instead focusing solely on the teachings of a wise man.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

See that's what I mean. IMO you're putting way too much emphasis on unicorns in your analogy (unicorn is in your passage 7 times). Part of the issue is that many think of Christianity as a worship of a God. That's actually the problem. We could worship a lamp. It does nothing...it means nothing. Christianity is a 'religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus'. At some point, I hope some of you guys get past the I just can't believe in a 'guy sitting in a cloud' stuff.

I think that's an entirely reasonable position. I am far more interested in what kind of person someone is and what kind of choices he makes than whatever reason he has concocted for doing so, and I am very comfortable with many of the moral precepts (politeness, kindness, charity, humbleness) I have seen religious friends and peers inculcate in their children. On the graph of good/bad x religious/irreligious, I rank-order the good/religious quadrant before the bad/irreligious quadrant as people to cultivate contact with.

The worst consequence of mixing religion and politics is it leads people to stress their doctrinal differences over the actual practical effect of their behavior on others, which is why a secular (as distinct from atheist) public space is such a social good.

The last part of your post looks like something out of horror movie. I have not heard anything remotely like that from any Christian in person for decades.

Seems to me that stuff is on the nightly news, but again, that's typically when politics enters into the story. In my life and work I travel among 80-90% religious people and it is rare that they are aggressive about those kinds of things. But turn on the radio and Pinhead Nation is constantly thumping the tub about it, and somebody is listening to those yahoos.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

That reads like you're trying to turn Christians into something like Buddhists by eliminating God from the equation and instead focusing solely on the teachings of a wise man.

Not exactly. I am proposing (as does Christianity) that Jesus Word is the deal. As in its what matters. To put it another way, it is the meaning behind God...and take to take it a step further it really defines the essence of what God means for individuals. So rather than having the existence of a tangible God be the gateway to Christianity (Jesus)...Jesus is the gateway to God.

Until it comes, its easier just to think about Jesus Word as being what matters in all this.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Not exactly. I am proposing (as does Christianity) that Jesus Word is the deal. As in its what matters. To put it another way, it is the meaning behind God...and take to take it a step further it really defines the essence of what God means for individuals. So rather than having the existence of a tangible God be the gateway to Christianity (Jesus)...Jesus is the gateway to God.

Until it comes, its easier just to think about Jesus Word as being what matters in all this.

God is the OS, Jesus is the app, and the Holy Spirit is the marketing department.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Then sorry...but you haven't really encountered the real deal.

Then sorry that you believe what you saw is the real deal.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Christians are just focused on what Jesus/Bible has to say. From a real world tangible standpoint...the real value in Christianity is not whether God exists, but rather an understanding of and the implications of Jesus. What it means for me. In a way, Atheists by focusing on the existence of God, they are arguing right past us.

Pssssst - secret for you. If you believe in the Golden Rule and kindness and forgiveness but don't really care whether God exists, you might be an atheist. /Jeff Foxworthy

Not exactly. I am proposing (as does Christianity) that Jesus Word is the deal. As in its what matters. To put it another way, it is the meaning behind God...and take to take it a step further it really defines the essence of what God means for individuals. So rather than having the existence of a tangible God be the gateway to Christianity (Jesus)...Jesus is the gateway to God.

Until it comes, its easier just to think about Jesus Word as being what matters in all this.

Except that the First Commandment, in fact the only one that Jesus Himself said was even needed, is "Love God with all your heart and soul" (depending on your translation). It's rather difficult set aside the existence of God and focus only on Jesus's word when his own summary of all his teachings pre-supposes the existence of God. If he had said, "The Golden Rule is #1, and oh, by the way, if you happen to believe in God also, well, that's fine, too" then you might be on to something....

Secondly, most of Jesus's words weren't even his own ideas. The Egyptians, Chinese, and others beat Jesus to the Golden Rule by thousands of years. Why do you think Jesus should get the credit? Note that I'm not arguing the value of the content - an idea that's plagiarized does not automatically become false.

 

[unofan]

See that's what I mean. IMO you're putting way too much emphasis on unicorns in your analogy (unicorn is in your passage 7 times). Part of the issue is that many think of Christianity as a worship of a God.

Yeah, probably because of that whole First Commandment thing, which even Jesus listed above the golden rule.

I think the biggest disconnect in this thread is that you are ascribing your personal version of Christianity to the entirety of Christendom, when your interpretation is far from mainstream.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

See that's what I mean. IMO you're putting way too much emphasis on unicorns in your analogy (unicorn is in your passage 7 times). Part of the issue is that many think of Christianity as a worship of a God. That's actually the problem. We could worship a lamp. It does nothing...it means nothing. Christianity is a 'religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus'. At some point, I hope some of you guys get past the I just can't believe in a 'guy sitting in a cloud' stuff.

Interesting. Is it possible to be Chiristian, in your sense of the word, and without theism?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The notion that without Christianity, there would be no morality, is silly. Sociopaths would still exist at the same percentage of the population that they currently do.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I think 5MM and Bob need to learn the difference between atheist (No!) and agnostic (don't know, don't care).

I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is a God and I really don't care right now. I don't care how you want to practice your religion, I just prefer you keep to yourself and out of the public sphere. Problem is, "keep to yourself and out of the public sphere" apparently equals "persecution!" to some.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I think 5MM and Bob need to learn the difference between atheist (No!) and agnostic (don't know, don't care).

I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is a God and I really don't care right now. I don't care how you want to practice your religion, I just prefer you keep to yourself and out of the public sphere. Problem is, "keep to yourself and out of the public sphere" apparently equals "persecution!" to some.

I agree with keeping to yourself. However, "Public sphere" is broadly interpreted by many.

I was raised Catholic. I am probably agnostic, perhaps even atheist, but I hesitate to identify as atheist because of fvckstains who deliberately inflame the discussion.

That said, agnostics seem to infuriate everyone - PICK A SIDE!