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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

WisconsinWildcard said:
Do you define relationships and love between family and friends as material or spiritual?
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I would say that relationships and love are things that goes beyond material things, but of course can and are expressed at times through material means.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Bob Gray said:
I would say that relationships and love are things that goes beyond material things, but of course can and are expressed at times through material means.
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OK good. I think this might be the source of some of the conflict. I consider myself pretty far down the materialist spectrum. Some background from my end not directly related to the specific question: The world I live in can be studied. Everything is "material," meaning it is made of either energy or mass (or something tangible in a very broad sense of the word), follows a set of Laws that we may or may not know or understand. I usually contrast material with the immaterial or supernatural. It is not that I do not believe in the supernatural, per se, it is that I find it largely incoherent. Think of the question, "What is the color of happiness?" It is not that I do not believe there is a color of happiness, the question is just incoherent. Supernatural claims, for me, are vague, unfalsifiable, and individual nearly by definition.

Back to the point at hand. I think many confuse materialist with materialistic. Love is material. Relationships are material. Family are material. Heartbreak is material. Memories are material. One being a materialist has no correlation with what one deems important in their life.

There are very few objects in my life that are really important to me. The few I have are largely replaceable (except maybe my collection of classic medical books). I value the memories I have, the time spent with family, the late nights debating with good friends, the sensory zeniths endowed to humans, etc. But all of these things are well explained for a materialist and it in no way (for me) diminishes their value. I acknowledge that this may not be enough for some but I do not know if I will ever understand.

Often, love is isolated as something that is immaterial. But I respond with this. "Love without evidence is...stalking."--Tim Minchin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo The line is at about the 3:30 mark but I suggest watching the whole thing as there are many salient points. Probably NSFW though.

And I would bet Kepler has some quibbles with my fast and loose definitions above. Don't be shy about correcting me because we are closer in opinions than some. I want to learn too :)
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Foxton said:
Yes yes, we've all heard about how great you think your religion of convenient excuses is multiple times in multiple threads and how it's responsible for everything good that ever existed and has never done any ill.
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I will discuss pros vs. cons of Christianity in the modern era any day. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you mentioned this...

The updated list of the largest charitable organizations. Some 15 of the top 20 charitable organizations have been Christian based (5 founded by devout Christians and 10 Christian organizations) which make up about 80% of revenue of the top 20. Christianity continues to have a real impact:

http://www.forbes.com/top-charities/list/
 
5mn_Major said:
I will discuss pros vs. cons of Christianity in the modern era any day. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you mentioned this...

The updated list of the largest charitable organizations. Some 15 of the top 20 charitable organizations have been Christian based (5 founded by devout Christians and 10 Christian organizations) which make up about 80% of revenue of the top 20. Christianity continues to have a real impact:

http://www.forbes.com/top-charities/list/
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15 of 20? Well, considering that about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, that seems right on par. If Christianity is an important factor, why isn't the fraction *higher* than 75%?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

LynahFan said:
15 of 20? Well, considering that about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, that seems right on par. If Christianity is an important factor, why isn't the fraction *higher* than 75%?
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Agreed. Additionally, would it not be important to look at the demographics of those donating or volunteering?

On another note, many hospitals with "Christian origins" are now completely secular and have policies that far from some mainstream Christian beliefs.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

5mn_Major said:
I will discuss pros vs. cons of Christianity in the modern era any day. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you mentioned this...

The updated list of the largest charitable organizations. Some 15 of the top 20 charitable organizations have been Christian based (5 founded by devout Christians and 10 Christian organizations) which make up about 80% of revenue of the top 20. Christianity continues to have a real impact:

http://www.forbes.com/top-charities/list/
Click to expand...

In the small community in which I live there a number of civic minded and charitable organizations. All of them are important contributors to local and national charities. I am not much different that most of my friends in that I will choose to give my time (and money) to some but not all of those organizations. But I go into that choice knowing I will contribute to charitable causes--it's just a matter of deciding which one to give through. It is not the charitable organization itself that causes me give; I have already made that decision. I simply have to choose which organizations I will give through. I change from time to time, and the majority of it does not go through organizations specifically identifying themselves as christian.

In a country where (allegedly) 75% of the population identify themselves as Christian, I strongly suspect that most of those people come from communities that are also largely Christian, so the options for charitable giving are also largely affiliated with various Christian organizations, as Lynah and WW pointed out. You can credit Christianity itself with some amount of charitabble giving, but this is another example where it is too easy to confuse correlation with causation.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

LynahFan said:
15 of 20? Well, considering that about 75% of Americans identify as Christian, that seems right on par. If Christianity is an important factor, why isn't the fraction *higher* than 75%?
Click to expand...

Great. Via their existing charters or founders' ministries, Christianity still directly resulted in these organizations and Americans are on board.

burd said:
In the small community in which I live there a number of civic minded and charitable organizations. All of them are important contributors to local and national charities. I am not much different that most of my friends in that I will choose to give my time (and money) to some but not all of those organizations.

In a country where (allegedly) 75% of the population identify themselves as Christian, I strongly suspect that most of those people come from communities that are also largely Christian, so the options for charitable giving are also largely affiliated with various Christian organizations, as Lynah and WW pointed out. You can credit Christianity itself with some amount of charitabble giving, but this is another example where it is too easy to confuse correlation with causation.
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I am not giving Christians credit for giving all the charity. The claim I made is that charitable giving was jumpstarted by the Christian charter and very successfully managed that way.

So the point is easy. In reality, Christianity has been a huge driver in positive societal change from helping end medieval social injustices like (slavery, child labor, womens positions in society, etc.) to carrying the American health care movement forward (via the founding and staffing of most of the country's early hospitals). Charity is just one of many stories of a great move forward driven from Christianity. Its all there on wiki. The non believers who are very vocal...as in not specifically for something, but rather against something...have a difficult time seeing any benefit from Christianity. I welcome solid logic...but I don't usually see it as Christianity really did drive the key American movements leading to the above changes.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

5mn_Major said:
Great. Via their existing charters or founders' ministries, Christianity still directly resulted in these organizations and Americans are on board.


I am not giving Christians credit for giving all the charity. The claim I made is that charitable giving was jumpstarted by the Christian charter and very successfully managed that way.

So the point is easy. In reality, Christianity has been a huge driver in positive societal change from helping end medieval social injustices like (slavery, child labor, womens positions in society, etc.) to carrying the American health care movement forward (via the founding and staffing of most of the country's early hospitals). Charity is just one of many stories of a great move forward driven from Christianity. Its all there on wiki. The non believers who are very vocal...as in not specifically for something, but rather against something...have a difficult time seeing any benefit from Christianity. I welcome solid logic...but I don't usually see it as Christianity really did drive the key American movements leading to the above changes.
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Your point might be somewhat worth laboring through if it weren't for the simple fact that the people enforcing and propagating things like slavery, child labor, womens position in society, and a whole host of other disgusting bull**** still going on today, were also christians. (Quoting book and verse) Something you will never admit.

You don't know any logic past "christianity good."
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Foxton said:
Your point might be somewhat worth laboring through if it weren't for the simple fact that the people enforcing and propagating things like slavery, child labor, womens position in society, and a whole host of other disgusting bull**** still going on today, were also christians. (Quoting book and verse) Something you will never admit.
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Jesus has been perverted or used for individual (or outside organizational) goals for centuries. Patriotism has many similar attributes to religion. Is patriotism ever used to further individual goals that have nothing to do with patriotism? All the time. Patriotism has been used for wars with ulterior motives as long as there's been war. People always blame other stuff for their actions...its a daily occurance.

So how do we know when Jesus is being used correctly? Simple...actions align with His doctrine. Its why charities build it into their charters. Likewise, if someone robs a bank in the name of 'love of country'...you can guess that its probably garbage. In the end, a claim that Jesus drove negative events in society needs to be backed up...you'll have to find passages that outweigh his primary ministry planks of 'love they neighbor', 'give to the poor', 'don't throw stones' and 'turn the other cheek'.

As shown Jesus has been used unjustly regarding individuals use of slavery, etc., but Christianity didn't cause any of these societal problems...and it played a foundational role in fixing them. Credit is due.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

5mn_Major said:
In the end, a claim that Jesus drove negative events in society needs to be backed up...you'll have to find passages that outweigh his primary ministry planks of 'love they neighbor', 'give to the poor', 'don't throw stones' and 'turn the other cheek'.
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Show me the passages that tell his followers to run around screaming "We're perfect and have done nothing that requires forgiveness!"
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

5mn_Major said:
but Christianity didn't cause any of these societal problems.
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One man's perversion of religion is another man's true religion. As stated repeatedly on here, you don't get to ignore the bad Christians while accepting credit for the good.

The Westboro Baptist Church is Christian to the extent they believe in Jesus and follow what they believe the Bible tells them. The KKK had strong ties to some segments of Christianity. The Promise Keepers are still advocating that women know their place in society.

You may not like any of that or accept any of their beliefs as your own, but that doesn't make them something other than Christians.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

burd said:
In the small community in which I live there a number of civic minded and charitable organizations. All of them are important contributors to local and national charities. I am not much different that most of my friends in that I will choose to give my time (and money) to some but not all of those organizations. But I go into that choice knowing I will contribute to charitable causes--it's just a matter of deciding which one to give through. It is not the charitable organization itself that causes me give; I have already made that decision. I simply have to choose which organizations I will give through. I change from time to time, and the majority of it does not go through organizations specifically identifying themselves as christian.

In a country where (allegedly) 75% of the population identify themselves as Christian, I strongly suspect that most of those people come from communities that are also largely Christian, so the options for charitable giving are also largely affiliated with various Christian organizations, as Lynah and WW pointed out. You can credit Christianity itself with some amount of charitabble giving, but this is another example where it is too easy to confuse correlation with causation.
Click to expand...
We have a charitable giving program at work and they have a huge laundry list of charitable organizations you can choose to give to and they'll simply deduct the donation out of your paycheck every two weeks. Scanning that list, the vast majority would not be considered to be Christian affiliated or at least primarily, by an reasonable stretch of the imagination.

If anywhere near 75 percent of Americans consider themselves Christian, which I'm not convinced of, that only means that a ton of people think of themselves as Christian merely because their parents were, or they are American, etc. Those sorts of polls are notoriously poor at indicating what people really believe, etc.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Bob Gray said:
We have a charitable giving program at work and they have a huge laundry list of charitable organizations you can choose to give to and they'll simply deduct the donation out of your paycheck every two weeks. Scanning that list, the vast majority would not be considered to be Christian affiliated or at least primarily, by an reasonable stretch of the imagination.
Click to expand...
Same here, though I suspect that the list is not a random sample of all possible charities they could choose. I'm sure that they go out of their way to select more secular organizations than they really need to, just so they don't appear to be favoring any particular religion.
 
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