The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In retrospect, I had a truly wonderful teacher of remedial precalculus when I first got to MTU who saved my skin in this course area. Maybe the best teacher I've ever had. I looked her up, she's since taken a job for a bank that's too big to fail, which is a shame.

My first girlfriend at Cornell is now a VP of Goldman Sachs. I feel your disappointment.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I had amazing teachers in history and English and theater and even in opera, but I never had even a mediocre teacher in the two subjects I love the most, philosophy and mathematics. I don't know if I was just unlucky, or whether it's incredibly difficult to teach those subjects, but I swear I did a better job helping my daughter struggle valiantly through geometry and algebra than anybody who ever taught me math.

I had a great math professor at SCSU for College Algebra (required of all students regardless if you could test out or not). He was an older guy and knew the material was boring to most people, so he'd pepper in little tidbits here and there that kept students engaged. He'd also make some jokes at his own expense or tell some silly stories that somehow related to the subject at hand, and still we completed everything on the syllabus, which I thought impressive since the department set it.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

This may be a interesting read. It is on my list to read, but I have heard very good things.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Improbability-Principle-Coincidences-Miracles/dp/0374175349

It reminds me very much of a classic short story.

A man receives a solicitation in the mail from a company that promises to pick one pro football game every week of the season correctly. As an introductory offer, they will even give away the first week's pick for free!
and it's right.

The second week, he gets another letter: "see, we were right. Here's another free pick."
and it's right.

The third week.... etc... . and so the man starts paying for the service, and he starts betting on games, and the picks are right every time!

Finally, the Super Bowl, a few thousand to get the pick, he mortgages his house to bet on the game, HE WINS!

A week later, he reads in the paper that the service has been busted for running a massive fraud. They started with a list of 1.9 million people (say) and sent half on the list one pick, and half the other pick. Every successive week, they sent half of the people who had received the winning pick one new pick, half the other new pick. and so on and so on.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There is no capital g "God" in pantheism. Pantheism says (more or less) that the all-encompassing power of the universe is divine, but does not manifest itself anthropomorphically like the "God" of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. So, it's not really the same thing.

You are really starting to sound like those medieval theologians who argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

The essence of the conversation was, does belief in science preclude belief in a divine power / divine powers. Most people find them complementary. Even "atheists" who aren't sociopaths believe in morality (i.e., something greater than the self guides ethical behavior).


Next you'll be telling me that god is merely dog spelled backward.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You are really starting to sound like those medieval theologians who argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

The essence of the conversation was, does belief in science preclude belief in a divine power / divine powers. Most people find them complementary. Even "atheists" who aren't sociopaths believe in morality (i.e., something greater than the self guides ethical behavior).


Next you'll be telling me that god is merely dog spelled backward.

Most people don't give it much thought. To most people, Teilhard and Martin Buber are probably soccer players.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Most people find them complementary. Even "atheists" who aren't sociopaths believe in morality (i.e., something greater than the self guides ethical behavior).

Most atheists believe that morality is derived by an implicit social contract we all have with one another in order to live in a society that's more than just the strongest dominating the weakest. No greater being has had to act upon me for me to not kill another person, to steal from another person or harm another's property in some physical manner. I do it because I expect the same respect and treatment from others. And if they don't live up to those simple rules, we should place them in prison.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You are really starting to sound like those medieval theologians who argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

Ah! Pet peeve!

/rant First of all, nobody ever argued this. It was an anti-Scholastic joke by people like Erasmus and Voltaire.

Secondly, the issue behind it actually does matter. "Accidental" (i.e., material) being has extension in space, and two objects cannot occupy the same place at the same time. The question was, "are angels (a thing we consider having "being," albeit a weird one) material?," i.e., accidental, i.e., contingent. This actually remains a really important question to this day in philosophy -- it relates to questions of whether existence is an essential property or not. Even non-philosophers are still breaking their heads over that in fields as diverse as cosmology and AI.

So for God's sake please, please stop using that stupid term!!! /end rant

OK, I feel better.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In retrospect, I had a truly wonderful teacher of remedial precalculus when I first got to MTU who saved my skin in this course area.

Same here

The essence of the conversation was, does belief in science preclude belief in a divine power / divine powers. Most people find them complementary. Even "atheists" who aren't sociopaths believe in morality (i.e., something greater than the self guides ethical behavior).

That may have been the 'essence' of the conversation, however you stated that Einstein believed in God; with a capital G. You did not acknowledge any nuances with regards to conceptions of a higher power, until WW corrected you on your half-truth.

Morality has nothing to do with a power greater than humanity. Hilarious that you would conflate atheism with sociopathic behavior though. I can't imagine where that came from.

 

[joecct]

But without a functioning understanding of statistics, how else ruin other's stories at parties?

Plastics

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Most atheists believe that morality is derived by an implicit social contract we all have with one another in order to live in a society that's more than just the strongest dominating the weakest. No greater being has had to act upon me for me to not kill another person, to steal from another person or harm another's property in some physical manner. I do it because I expect the same respect and treatment from others. And if they don't live up to those simple rules, we should place them in prison.

Exactly. For anyone who thinks we need a God to set the rules, where exactly does the governing power of the US government come from? Let's see...maybe it's actually in the document that founded the government. Gollee gee, there it is right in the first three words: "We the people..."

In a sense, secular laws really are just an application of the Golden Rule - think of the things you'd like NOT to be done unto you, and we'll just say that nobody is allowed to do that unto anybody.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Exactly. For anyone who thinks we need a God to set the rules, where exactly does the governing power of the US government come from? Let's see...maybe it's actually in the document that founded the government. Gollee gee, there it is right in the first three words: "We the people..."

In a sense, secular laws really are just an application of the Golden Rule - think of the things you'd like NOT to be done unto you, and we'll just say that nobody is allowed to do that unto anybody.

And let us not forget the last sentence of our Declaration of Independence

...And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Or perhaps earlier in the same document

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,...

And then perhaps its most famous phrase

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

 

[unofan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

And let us not forget the last sentence of our Declaration of Independence

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, in the sense that it has no bearing on the interpretation of laws. So not sure what your point is.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, in the sense that it has no bearing on the interpretation of laws. So not sure what your point is.

Yeah - the founding fathers came to their senses between 1776 and 1789 - no, check that - actually 1781, when the first "United States of America" government was founded. Just like the US Constitution, there's exactly one mention of God/religion, and it's to say that the states will help defend each other if they are attacked "on account of religion, trade, sovereignty, or any other pretense whatever." (aside: I love the image of Franklin standing before Congress and saying "whut-EVarrrr."

The US Constitution's reference to religion, of course, is to state that there cannot be a religious test for office.

Certainly strong arguments for a supernatural basis of laws, those are.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The Founding Fathers: Real, Fiction, or a bunch of rich white guys who kicked the slavery can down the road.

 

[joecct]

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document, in the sense that it has no bearing on the interpretation of laws. So not sure what your point is.

Yet without it, we would not be who we currently are.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Yet without it, we would not be who we currently are.

And oxygen. Just think where we'd be without THAT!

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Catholic moms breathe sigh of relief.
http://news.yahoo.com/pope-says-birth-control-ban-doesnt-mean-breed-190535033.html

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Most atheists believe that morality is derived by an implicit social contract we all have with one another

Right, and a Christian believes that the contract is with God, and not each other. But we serve God and each other out of love for God and each other and as a way to thank God, and because He commands us to serve. In how we behave on earth, there is no discernible difference between a Christian and an Atheist. The difference is in death.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Right, and a Christian believes that the contract is with God, and not each other. But we serve God and each other out of love for God and each other and as a way to thank God, and because He commands us to serve. In how we behave on earth, there is no discernible difference between a Christian and an Atheist. The difference is in death.

But why does God need us to serve him, if we can and do treat one another just as well as atheists?

Sounds like He has low self-esteem.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I know what Timothy was intending. But in reality, there's a discernible difference in life. There is direction/affirmation. It is crystal clear the direction to take. And the Jesus path is morally rock solid. Agnostics and atheists kind of follow along, without a north star so to speak. If they kind of base it on societal norms, they came from the same teachings whether they know it or not...they're just missing the compass. And for an outcome, there's doubtless an amazingly positive experience one gets in worship, community and in doing service. And if these are psychological...man, they've got me fooled and many others I know. Do agnostics get these kind of overwhelming positive experiences regularly? Doubt it. I didn't when I was agnostic.