The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I know what Timothy was intending. But in reality, there's a discernible difference in life. There is direction/affirmation. It is crystal clear the direction to take. And the Jesus path is morally rock solid. Agnostics and atheists kind of follow along, without a north star so to speak. If they kind of base it on societal norms, they came from the same teachings whether they know it or not...they're just missing the compass. And for an outcome, there's doubtless an amazingly positive experience one gets in worship, community and in doing service. And if these are psychological...man, they've got me fooled and many others I know. Do agnostics get these kind of overwhelming positive experiences regularly? Doubt it. I didn't when I was agnostic.

Doing service and community are not restricted to the religious.

But the solidity of morality is a real difference, at least in theory (in practice, the religious have proven extremely inventive in how they rationalize the worst actions). However, there is a sense of, for lack of a better word, maturity in accepting that morality is a human institution that depends on human beings constantly acting on it for it to exist, which the faithful exchange for belief in a non-human source of morality. When you are a child birthday parties happen and they come upon you as 100%, rock solid, unmingled joy. When you grow old enough, you create birthday parties for others, and others create them for you. That feeling of being supremely special is gone, and the feeling that THIS is YOUR day, however you also get many other satisfactions in knowing you have gone from a birthday "consumer" to a birthday "producer." That is the closest I can come to explaining that it is bittersweet but also more "real" in emerging from faith into the complex, grey-scale, no guarantees, world of reality.

People have described faith as a drug or a sleep, but I think it is closer to say it is a sort of recaptured childhood. I think Jesus (or the Jesus who comes through as the Gospel authors wished him to, anyway) would have wholeheartedly agreed. There is something pure and untroubled in childhood (or at least in how we remember it -- children would probably beg to differ). I don't mean this to be disparaging or patronizing, either, since we all more or less construct ourselves, and, there being no baseline to compare to, picking a well-accepted, overwhelmingly-supported-in-numbers persona is just as valid as being a rationalist, and has many advantages.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I know what Timothy was intending. But in reality, there's a discernible difference in life. There is direction/affirmation. It is crystal clear the direction to take. And the Jesus path is morally rock solid. Agnostics and atheists kind of follow along, without a north star so to speak. If they kind of base it on societal norms, they came from the same teachings whether they know it or not...they're just missing the compass. And for an outcome, there's doubtless an amazingly positive experience one gets in worship, community and in doing service. And if these are psychological...man, they've got me fooled and many others I know. Do agnostics get these kind of overwhelming positive experiences regularly? Doubt it. I didn't when I was agnostic.

I get what Tim is saying, although I am not that drastic. My belief is between me and God only. I don't give a sh* about what others think, I don't go churchin', I don't "officially" pray (kneel down and do the sign of the cross and such), but God and I do talk and I try and do the right thing, because He guides me. I also don't preach to nor condemn others for their beliefs or non-beliefs. All this stuff is personal to me, and frankly should be personal to each person on earth. None of my business which god or God or non-idol you follow. As long as you do your best to be a good person, fuggit. We cool.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Doing service and community are not restricted to the religious.

But the solidity of morality is a real difference, at least in theory (in practice, the religious have proven extremely inventive in how they rationalize the worst actions). However, there is a sense of, for lack of a better word, maturity in accepting that morality is a human institution that depends on human beings constantly acting on it for it to exist, which the faithful exchange for belief in a non-human source of morality. When you are a child birthday parties happen and they come upon you as 100%, rock solid, unmingled joy. When you grow old enough, you create birthday parties for others, and others create them for you. That feeling of being supremely special is gone, and the feeling that THIS is YOUR day, however you also get many other satisfactions in knowing you have gone from a birthday "consumer" to a birthday "producer." That is the closest I can come to explaining that it is bittersweet but also more "real" in emerging from faith into the complex, grey-scale, no guarantees, world of reality.

People have described faith as a drug or a sleep, but I think it is closer to say it is a sort of recaptured childhood. I think Jesus (or the Jesus who comes through as the Gospel authors wished him to, anyway) would have wholeheartedly agreed. There is something pure and untroubled in childhood (or at least in how we remember it -- children would probably beg to differ). I don't mean this to be disparaging or patronizing, either, since we all more or less construct ourselves, and, there being no baseline to compare to, picking a well-accepted, overwhelmingly-supported-in-numbers persona is just as valid as being a rationalist, and has many advantages.

My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So be it when I shall grow old,
Or let me die!
The Child is father of the Man;
I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.

Wordsworth, My Heart Leaps Up When I Behold

I realize you are not talking about the child-like innocence the romantics described, Kepler, but your words brought Wordsworth to mind.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I realize you are not talking about the child-like innocence the romantics described, Kepler, but your words brought Wordsworth to mind.

I'm not sure I wasn't.

The American Transcendentalists, particularly Emerson, but also Thoreau, Amos Bronson Alcott and others, stand astride this kind of intoxication of the perfection of nature/God with a foot on each bank. This is Alcott from Orphic Sayings:

Nature is quick with spirit. In eternal systole and diastole, the living tides course gladly along, incarnating organ and vessel in their mystic flow. Let her pulsations for a moment pause on their errands, and creation’s self ebbs instantly into chaos and invisibility again. The visible world is the extremest wave of that spiritual flood, whose flux is life, whose reflux death, efflux thought, and conflux light. Organization is the confine of incarnation,—body the atomy of God.

and again, later:

Believe, youth, despite all temptations, the oracle of deity in your own bosom. ’T is the breath of God’s revelations,—the respiration of the Holy Ghost in your breast. Be faithful, not infidel, to its intuitions,—quench never its spirit,—dwell ever in its omniscience. So shall your soul be filled with light, and God be an indwelling fact,—a presence in the depths of your being.

and finally:

Blessedness consists in perfect willingness. It is above all conflict. It is serenity, triumph, beatitude. It transcends choice. It is one with the divine Will, and a partaker of his nature and tendency. There is struggle and choice only with the wilful. The saints are elect in perfect obedience, and enact God’s decrees.

There are many paths to the reintegration of self and nature; some are religious, some are poetic, some are naturalistic, and some are some combination of all. I'm with Brenthoven: find your lane and don't feel threatened if others find a different one. We're all headed for the same exit.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

People have described faith as a drug or a sleep, but I think it is closer to say it is a sort of recaptured childhood.

Ah, so that's why scientists believe the laws of nature are the same everywhere in the universe!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Faith is an extremely normal and human outcome. OK....sure there is still child upbringing as folks are brought up going to church. But that doesn't explain an extremely high percentage of Christians in a society where science explains nearly every physical phenomenon, there is not one tangible piece of evidence of the existence of God, and societal competition from the almighty dollar, travel, technology, etc is overwhelming. Christians totally understand all this...and still the benefits greatly outweigh.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I posted this in another thread but it probably fits better here. Not a response to anything, just something I find amusing.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Faith is an extremely normal and human outcome. OK....sure there is still child upbringing as folks are brought up going to church. But that doesn't explain an extremely high percentage of Christians in a society where science explains nearly every physical phenomenon, there is not one tangible piece of evidence of the existence of God, and societal competition from the almighty dollar, travel, technology, etc is overwhelming. Christians totally understand all this...and still the benefits greatly outweigh.

Yes yes, we've all heard about how great you think your religion of convenient excuses is multiple times in multiple threads and how it's responsible for everything good that ever existed and has never done any ill.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Has anybody here read anything digestible about the Nicaean Conference?

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Has anybody here read anything digestible about the Nicaean Conference?

Out of that... the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Yes. Something of a political convention to define the nature of God, as I understand it.

But I know little about the conference and would be interested in some recommended reading on it. Something with some research behind it.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Yes. Something of a political convention to define the nature of God, as I understand it.

But I know little about the conference and would be interested in some recommended reading on it. Something with some research behind it.

Here's what went down. https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/nicea/

Also, the conference helped define what books ended up in the Bible: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Out of that... the Nicene Creed:

filoque and the Great Schism

We need to heal this - and quickly.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Faith is an extremely normal and human outcome. OK....sure there is still child upbringing as folks are brought up going to church. But that doesn't explain an extremely high percentage of Christians in a society where science explains nearly every physical phenomenon, there is not one tangible piece of evidence of the existence of God, and societal competition from the almighty dollar, travel, technology, etc is overwhelming. Christians totally understand all this...and still the benefits greatly outweigh.

Everyone has faith is something. Some are just more overt in recognizing and acknowledging what they have faith in. We as a society are extremely focused on outward material things, but even people who don't believe in a god of some sort generally recognize that there is a spiritual (or whatever word one chooses) side of things that isn't bounded by all our physical stuff that occupies our lives so much.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Has anybody here read anything digestible about the Nicaean Conference?

Karen Armstrong "A History of God" FTW.

It's just a great book in all respects, every bit as good as "Doubt" by Jennifer Michael Hecht.

Those are the best books on the history of religion that I've read.

The third is Charles Taylor's "A Secular Age," but it's a VERY hard read. The other two are much more accessible.

Martha Nussbaum also alludes to many of these themes throughout her works (which are beautiful and brilliant), but those are in her peripheral vision, and Martha also aint for the faint for heart.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Everyone has faith is something. Some are just more overt in recognizing and acknowledging what they have faith in. We as a society are extremely focused on outward material things, but even people who don't believe in a god of some sort generally recognize that there is a spiritual (or whatever word one chooses) side of things that isn't bounded by all our physical stuff that occupies our lives so much.

I disagree with the sentiment underlying your statement. Materialism and faith aren't antonyms. You're as likely to find a materialist believer as a "spiritual" non-believer. We typically make the mistake of taking all the good traits as in some way definitional of our own team, when in reality those traits are actually randomly present in all the varieties of human experience (Jamesian pun intended).

The only thing a person's belief in God can tell you about that person is the belief in God. It doesn't correlate with anything else. They are as likely to be as superficial or deep, materialistic or austere, intelligent or stupid, honorable or dishonorable, open or deceitful, serene or agitated, loving or selfish as anyone else. The same, it should go without saying, is true of atheism. Assertions to the contrary are just flag-waving.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I disagree with the sentiment underlying your statement. Materialism and faith aren't antonyms. You're as likely to find a materialist believer as a "spiritual" non-believer. We typically make the mistake of taking all the good traits as in some way definitional of our own team, when in reality those traits are actually randomly present in all the varieties of human experience (Jamesian pun intended).

The only thing a person's belief in God can tell you about that person is the belief in God. It doesn't correlate with anything else. They are as likely to be as superficial or deep, materialistic or austere, intelligent or stupid, honorable or dishonorable, open or deceitful, serene or agitated, loving or selfish as anyone else. The same, it should go without saying, is true of atheism. Assertions to the contrary are just flag-waving.

That's not what I said or was implying. My point was that you seem to take issue with is that our society is very outwardly focused on material things/money. I believe this is true. I've heard comments to this effect from people visiting from other parts of the world. They say things like "you Americans have lots of stuff and that's what you mostly seem to care about". There are both material and spiritual aspects to life and there is a place for both. Getting totally focused on one or the other I don't believe is healthy.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

These things are bad
1. Lust
2. Gluttony
3. Greed
4. Sloth
5. Rage (Wrath)
6. Envy
7. Pride

And these things are good
1. Chastity (not virginity, but discretion according to one's state in life)
2. Temperance (Restraint)
3. Charity
4. Diligence
5. Patience
6. Kindness
7. Humility

Or, as ET once said, "Be Good!"

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There are both material and spiritual aspects to life and there is a place for both. Getting totally focused on one or the other I don't believe is healthy.

Do you define relationships and love between family and friends as material or spiritual?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

you seem to take issue with is that our society is very outwardly focused on material things/money.

I do not take issue with that at all. My point is the virtues overwhelmed by the banality of commerce are not all religious or, more accurately, that religion is only one of many paths to the discovery and fulfillment of those values.

We're fightin' the same enemy here, Bob.

And after we win, there will be room for your altars and my maypoles.