What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

I think the word "fundamentalism" has become so loaded that it's hard to step back from it and talk about what's really going on. Really, if you think about the word, being fundamental just means you strongly hold the core beliefs of a given religion. I assume you don't have a problem with people who have deeply held religious beliefs as long as they don't foist those on others? But of course there is the rub. In particular Christians in our society can have their beliefs (and stay behind closed doors in their homes with them) but they get blasted if they espouse issues or vote according to their beliefs, just like every other person on the face of the planet does. It's ok to hold any position under the sun on any issue if you come to that position in any way, as long as religion doesn't help you get there. Total double standard, but it's been a successful attack strategy for awhile now, so I don't expect it'll be abandoned.

But people blast others' political opinions all the time. To me, the problem isn't that the fundamental believer in this example has deeply held religious beliefs and votes according to those beliefs. It's that he doesn't separate that from the political criticism. He wants to vote his beliefs, but not be criticized for what he's voting for. How's *that* supposed to work? It's a crazy way to twist things up.

So while I'm a big believer in cynicism, I think your statement "it [blasting Christians in our society] has been a successful attack strategy for awhile now, so I don't expect it'll be abandoned" is cynical in the wrong direction. I think it works this way:

1) This is America, and people are free to blast anybody else's opinion;
2) Cheap but savvy political point-scorers (and both sides have them, from Michelle Bachmann and Hugh Hewitt to Marion Barry and Michael Moore) use that, and say, "You watch! They're going to start attacking our position, and it's because we're Christians/blacks/women etc."

And it's *that* strategy that's successful and won't be abandoned for a while.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Somewhat appropriate?

393706_489465091078680_1777745234_n.jpg
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

In particular Christians in our society can have their beliefs (and stay behind closed doors in their homes with them) but they get blasted if they espouse issues or vote according to their beliefs, just like every other person on the face of the planet does. It's ok to hold any position under the sun on any issue if you come to that position in any way, as long as religion doesn't help you get there. Total double standard, but it's been a successful attack strategy for awhile now, so I don't expect it'll be abandoned.

Except that in some parts of this country (mostly the Bible Belt), you'd be ostracized and/or labeled un-American if you admitted to not voting and living life with Christian principles in mind. If, God forbid, you admitted to voting or living life with Islamic principles in mind, you'd be denounced to the press, accused of trying to implement Sharia law, and run out of town on a rail.

Christians are not the only group of Americans that have this problem, and it is not universal across the entire country.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

But people blast others' political opinions all the time. To me, the problem isn't that the fundamental believer in this example has deeply held religious beliefs and votes according to those beliefs. It's that he doesn't separate that from the political criticism. He wants to vote his beliefs, but not be criticized for what he's voting for. How's *that* supposed to work? It's a crazy way to twist things up.

So while I'm a big believer in cynicism, I think your statement "it [blasting Christians in our society] has been a successful attack strategy for awhile now, so I don't expect it'll be abandoned" is cynical in the wrong direction. I think it works this way:

1) This is America, and people are free to blast anybody else's opinion;
2) Cheap but savvy political point-scorers (and both sides have them, from Michelle Bachmann and Hugh Hewitt to Marion Barry and Michael Moore) use that, and say, "You watch! They're going to start attacking our position, and it's because we're Christians/blacks/women etc."

And it's *that* strategy that's successful and won't be abandoned for a while.

Reagan realized evangelical/conservative Protestants could be organized into an enthusiastic voting bloc. That gave rise to Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority (among others). Falwell, in fact, started acting like the rooster who crows when the sun comes up and begins to think the sun comes up because he crows.

It's the same with any voting bloc: politicians wind up pandering to them, just as the Democrats pander to blacks. Remember that panderfest at the Apollo Theatre? Hosted by Al Sharpton? Where Gore and Bradley took turns trolling for the black vote. Bill Clinton's Sister Souljah moment was a brilliant political stroke. He criticized a blatantly racist, unimportant black entertainer and it helped him win the WH because it went a long way toward convincing cultural white Democrats that there were limits beyond which even a Democratic nominee would not go.

In my own case, despite repeated assertions that I'm a fiscal as opposed to social conservative, the ladies' chorale insists I just have to believe a certain way on all the social issues, watch and listen to all of the "approved" programs and vote accordingly. When they're feeling their oats, they suggest I'm racist because I oppose Obama and probably stupid, too.

In the days before Roe v. Wade, the center of the universe for the anti-abortion movement (not yet called pro-life) was Boston. And you'd occasionally see national spokesman "Mrs. O'Malley" on TV. And for some odd reason Democrats weren't quite as insulting to those folks. It's my cynicism showing, but I think there's a chance Mrs. O'Malley and her supporters were life long Democrats. And the party wasn't interested in insulting them. Certainly Roe v. Wade amped up the debate. Now pro-life people are generally Republican and the attitude of the Democratic party has become far more hostile. Recall their convention where the pro-life governor of Pennsylvania was denied an opportunity to speak--precisely because he was pro-life.

Professionally, I've had to deal with all sorts of fringe groups over the years. And a good percentage of them call themselves "Christian," (personally, I object to the way they use the term, because they seem to be saying it includes them and excludes me) and I tried to apply the same standard to them as I did to any other group seeking coverage. That's why, for instance, I never sent a reporter to cover Fred Phelps. Not news. And I wouldn't send a reporter to cover the Klan either, for the same reason.

Phelps and "Rev." Jones are really good at manipulating the media. The notion that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff would actually call that "microscopically insignificant" twerp to beg him to back down on his anti-Muslim high school video project is laughable and concerning at the same time. Can you see General Marshall in pre-war America calling Fritz Kuhn asking him not to go forward with that rally at Madison Square Garden? Absurd. I read where the WH is saying Obama's going to bring up the video in his speech before the UN, as if the whole world doesn't realize that the WH narrative of what happened at Benghazi was a lie. Including the notion that the video had anything at all to do with it. There is also speculation that once again an anti-blasphemy resolution will be offered in the General Assembly. It'll be instructive to see how Obama responds to that .

I'm taking the long way 'round to get to my central point: there is a huge amount of hypocricy on the issue of religion from our national political figures. Just compare Hillary Clinton's excretions about how horrible and "unacceptable" that pathetic video is, with her full throated approval of the "Book of Mormon." Part of the reason is that LDS people have a poor record when it comes to head chopping, bombing and rioting. Part of it is also political and cultural. The administration is in full pander mode when it comes to Islam (domestic and foreign). And those LDS people are conservative and "won't vote for us." Silly me, hoping for a little consistency here.
 
Last edited:
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

I see. So 9/11 is the excuse for extremist Americans to kill innocent people of other religions and races. Kind of sounds like the middle east to me.

You've missed the point.

It so happens that middle eastern extremist violence is directed at us Americans...we get that. American extremist violence is directed at other races, religions that are not us...for some reason, many don't see that. I wonder why.

There is extremism in every country and that drives violence. You have to understand the causes of violence to have any chance to successfully deal with it. Thankfully, the administration gets it.

How did you gather I excused the act? The guy was a moron and nothing excuses his behavior. (and yes I am aware he didn't actually attack an Islamic location).

And no I didn't miss the point. "American extremist violence" is but a drop in the bucket of world-wide violence. More importantly non-American extremist violence is also always directed at "races, religions that are not [them]"...for some reason, you don't see that.
 
Last edited:
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

How did you gather I excused the act? The guy was a moron and nothing excuses his behavior. (and yes I am aware he didn't actually attack an Islamic location).

???

I said nothing of the kind. I talked about them 'having an excuse'. I don't know how you translated that to me claiming you 'excused it'.

And no I didn't miss the point. "American extremist violence" is but a drop in the bucket of world-wide violence. More importantly non-American extremist violence is also always directed at "races, religions that are not [them]"...for some reason, you don't see that.

Fine. I guess I'm on the same side as pretty much every administration, state department, the CIA, FBI and the military who have dealt with overseas terror and violence (even Bush figured that one out)...when I say its about extremism and not Islam. But you and Pio can believe what you want.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

???

I said nothing of the kind. I talked about them 'having an excuse'. I don't know how you translated that to me claiming you 'excused it'.



Fine. I guess I'm on the same side as pretty much every administration, state department, the CIA, FBI and the military who have dealt with overseas terror and violence (even Bush figured that one out)...when I say its about extremism and not Islam. But you and Pio can believe what you want.

And by an odd, hard to explain co-incidence, virtually all of the world's "extremism" these days is Islamist. Hmmmm. I guess the answer to the question: "Is there nothing you won't do to defend Obama?" is no. And I'm sure you've got a defense for all of the obvious lying emanating from the WH these last several days about what happened in Libya? Right? The mob that murdered those diplomats started out just wanting to review a movie. And somehow (non-Islamist) "extremism" drove them over the edge.

The diplomatic kabuki of not putting a name on Islamist terrorism is not proof that it's not. And didn't Bush, whom you only quote to support your groveling for Obama, get himself into mucho hot water by referring to a "crusade"?

Previously I thought you were just a troll. I'm beginning to realize you're something much less. Much less.
 
Last edited:
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

When far and away the most common denominator to world-wide violence is Islam I see a correlation. Yes, it's about extremism but we're not dealing with extremist Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, etc., etc. Those carrying out these acts are being duped by clerics that bastardize Islamic teaching in order to brainwash them into doing their bidding. It's not the fault of the religion, but the religion is being used to sell the movement. In actuality you and I are saying the same thing but using different terms. We ought not target the religion because that would be futile and miss the point, but it's not wrong to say it's a component.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

When far and away the most common denominator to world-wide violence is Islam I see a correlation. Yes, it's about extremism but we're not dealing with extremist Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, etc., etc. Those carrying out these acts are being duped by clerics that bastardize Islamic teaching in order to brainwash them into doing their bidding. It's not the fault of the religion, but the religion is being used to sell the movement. In actuality you and I are saying the same thing but using different terms. We ought not target the religion because that would be futile and miss the point, but it's not wrong to say it's a component.

Remember a few years ago when some Islamist prik waltzed into LAX and gunned down an El Al gate agent? The news clowns were reluctant to call it a "terrorist" attack (for fear, evidently, of offending Islamist terrorists). The guy walks in to the terminal, breezes past Lufthansa, KLM, Jordan Air, etc. and finds himself in front of the El Al counter, where he begins blasting. Let's not jump to conclusions here, whatever we do.
 
Last edited:
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Remember a few years ago when some Islamist prik waltzed into LAX and gunned down an El Al gate agent? The news clowns were reluctant to call it a "terrorist" attack (for fear, evidently, of offending Islamist terrorists). The guy walks in to the terminal, breezes past Lufthansa, KLM, Jordan Air, etc. and finds himself in front of the El Al counter, where he begins blasting. Let's not jump to conclusions here, whatever we do.
Maybe they lost his luggage? I mean, who wants 20kg of C4?
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Except that in some parts of this country (mostly the Bible Belt), you'd be ostracized and/or labeled un-American if you admitted to not voting and living life with Christian principles in mind. If, God forbid, you admitted to voting or living life with Islamic principles in mind, you'd be denounced to the press, accused of trying to implement Sharia law, and run out of town on a rail.

Christians are not the only group of Americans that have this problem, and it is not universal across the entire country.

Twaddle.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

When far and away the most common denominator to world-wide violence is Islam I see a correlation. Yes, it's about extremism but we're not dealing with extremist Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, etc., etc. Those carrying out these acts are being duped by clerics that bastardize Islamic teaching in order to brainwash them into doing their bidding. It's not the fault of the religion, but the religion is being used to sell the movement. In actuality you and I are saying the same thing but using different terms. We ought not target the religion because that would be futile and miss the point, but it's not wrong to say it's a component.

Many of the people in these countries have lived pretty cruddy lives filled with war, poverty and other things that will just flat out make you mad. We have seen what people can do when tragedy strikes. (look at America pre and post 9/11) They have leaders who use them as cattle and there is violence all around. All it takes is someone fanning the flames and entire generations of terrorists are born!

What makes this worse though is the added aspect of belief. It is bad enough to be filled with hatred and anger, but when you have a sense of righteousness it is the final straw. (this is true of any religion, not just Islam) It is easy to convince yourself mass murder is ok when you know in your heart of hearts that God thinks what you are doing is great!

I think Salmon Rushdie said it best the other day on Bill Maher...there has been a fundamental shift in Islam and the violence and hatred, which used to be the extreme edge of the religion is now more mainstream than ever. what is worse is that even the people who distance themselves or dont support this fundamentalism also do nothing to try and stop it. It wasnt all that long ago that the Mid East was a pretty open place. There has been a serious shift.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Two things going on here. 1) People living in the middle east have been living a crappy existence for a long time, largely through their own making (as in embracing maniacal strongmen as rulers). Its no surprise radicals can gain a foothold in that environment. Back in college I watched an interview with JFK where he was asked why African nations were willing to embrace communism, and he said something spot on. Basically if people live in a bad place for as long as they can remember, and somebody comes along and says "try our way instead" (in his case the Soviets) you'll get a better reception that you ought to. A newfound embrace of democracy is a big leap forward over there and something the Western world learned from 200 years ago to 1989 (fall of Berlin wall). In the course of that march to freedom and democracy, a lot of people died (WWI, WWII, French Revolution, Cold War). In that context, the turmoil over there isn't too surprising nor the inability of the US to contain it over the last 35 years.

2) Conservatives need a monolithic enemy to feel all is right with the world. Since the end of the Cold War, neo-conartistism has nowhere to go. Building up Saddam Hussein to be some global tyrant didn't work out so well as the Iraq War ending up being a total disaster. OBL is dead and not by a Republican President, so that's out. What's left is the notion of a new Evil Empire in the Middle East to replace the sprawling Soviet empire. In this context, not only is a war with Syria or Iran more possible under a Romney Presidency, I'd argue its a near certainty. You have to understand the mindset we're dealing with here.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

We've been waiting since Obama took office. Me thinks we'll be waiting another four years until we get someone in office that cares and isn't all over placating Islam.

Didn't Neville Chamberlain with the Munich Agreement and appeasement policy show us that you only placate so much?
 
We've been waiting since Obama took office. Me thinks we'll be waiting another four years until we get someone in office that cares and isn't all over placating Islam.

So who would you like us to go to war with Bob? Syria, Iran or should we re-invade Iraq?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top