The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

[Handyman]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Fish - I care less than the people who say they don't care but still have to label everyone...any chance you would be willing to share a one word answer...do you share the common liberal position on any of the following? No need to say which, but feel free to say if it is more than one.

Choice
Religion/church and state
Gun Control
Gay Marriage
Size of the Military
US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define)
Legalizing pot
Professional Wrestling


Careful, if you say yes I plan to call you a LIBERAL!!!! and tell everyone I just know you have a picture of Bill Maher on your wall.


This whole thing reminds me of a scene from M*A*S*H, Hawkeye and Radar are lined up for some roll call for Frank Burns when he is in charge...Frank calls out "count off by 2's". Radar leans to Hawkeye and asks "are you one?" Hawkeye responds in an effeminate voice "yes I am, are you?". Reminds me of this whole "outing" campaign the left wing crusaders have embarked upon. Wonder if they have some secret private chat room on here where they test each other's allegiance by asking questions only Jon Stewart would know just to confirm who is a real liberal American.

But you can admit you are a conservative if you'd like. I mean, not like there's anything wrong with that. For you I mean. {slides away on group W bench}

Ooooh let me play!

I am not a woman so I feel choice is not up to me.
I believe in the separation of Church and State completely...hell I say all religious institutions should pay taxes it is stupid they dont.
I think Gun Control is important but not something any politician is taking seriously so screw it
I dont think the government should tell anyone who they can marry. Funny how the current crop of conservatives disagree...
The military is bloated
The US should stay out of affairs in other countries until we can get our own house in order
Pot should be legal
Professional Wrestling hasnt been cool since the Four Horsemen stopped wrestling

Ya know what is funny, you didnt pick one fiscal issue in your little "Gotcha" post. I wonder why that is...

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

{slides away on group W bench}

Now, kid!

 

[pirate]

Ooooh let me play!

I am not a woman so I feel choice is not up to me.
I believe in the separation of Church and State completely...hell I say all religious institutions should pay taxes it is stupid they dont.
I think Gun Control is important but not something any politician is taking seriously so screw it
I dont think the government should tell anyone who they can marry. Funny how the current crop of conservatives disagree...
The military is bloated
The US should stay out of affairs in other countries until we can get our own house in order
Pot should be legal
Professional Wrestling hasnt been cool since the Four Horsemen stopped wrestling

Ya know what is funny, you didnt pick one fiscal issue in your little "Gotcha" post. I wonder why that is...

Because, moron, we already know his position on fiscal issues. My point was that it is likely he has a 'liberal' position on one of the other issues, thus he would not be allowed to carry a "true conservative" card.

Maybe that is part of the reason he identifies himself as an independent

You see, not everybody blindly follows an illogical collection of beliefs just because they are afraid to think for themselves or are worried that somebody will call them names.

Thinking: try it sometime

 

[unofan]

Because, moron, we already know his position on fiscal issues. My point was that it is likely he has a 'liberal' position on one of the other issues, thus he would not be allowed to carry a "true conservative" card.

Maybe that is part of the reason he identifies himself as an independent

You see, not everybody blindly follows an illogical collection of beliefs just because they are afraid to think for themselves or are worried that somebody will call them names.

Thinking: try it sometime

Again, his track record speaks for itself. If he hasnt clearly articulated a moderate position of any significance in the two years he's been here, sorry if I'll be skeptical of anything he says now. It's telling he only raises "sensible" immigration reform this week when the GOP decides to talk it up. Where was he months ago when the dream act was being pushed?

 

[Rover]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

So once again pirate, fishy, opie, flaggy, etc are showing off their persecution/martyr complex. Do you guys envision yourselves like the Christians being thrown to the lions during Roman times or something like that? Give it up people.

You're not independents and most likely never were. You're merely stuck in some sort of limbo where your ideology is deeply unpopular and generally the cause of old people who lament that the world has passed them by and its no longer 1980. On issue after issue, be it fiscal ones (public supports taxing the rich more over entitlement cuts), foreign policy (public views Iraq War as a collosal mistake, doesn't want to get involved in Syria), or social policy (public supports Roe v Wade decision, gay rights, and background checks for all guns sales) right wingers have become dinosaurs. That's not my opinion. Check the polls and the recent election results.

So, whenever someone does post something in the middle (for example I listed a bunch of spending cuts that sound fine to me) its completely ignored in order to feed your "we're under seige" mentality as fed to you by talk radio and Fox cable pundits. So, you can either learn from this post or go back to THE OUTRAGE OF THE DAY!!! I think I know which one you'll choose. And remember, just because you think they're always out to get you doesn't mean they're not!

 

[joecct]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Everyone!! Time out! This has degenerated into a kindergarten playground ******ing contest.

If you want to discuss the issues without the name calling, great!! Otherwise start your own thread and take the nanny-nanny-boo-boo stuff there.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Fish - I care less than the people who say they don't care but still have to label everyone...any chance you would be willing to share a one word answer...do you share the common liberal position on any of the following? No need to say which, but feel free to say if it is more than one.

Choice
Religion/church and state
Gun Control
Gay Marriage
Size of the Military
US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define)
Legalizing pot
Professional Wrestling


Careful, if you say yes I plan to call you a LIBERAL!!!! and tell everyone I just know you have a picture of Bill Maher on your wall.


This whole thing reminds me of a scene from M*A*S*H, Hawkeye and Radar are lined up for some roll call for Frank Burns when he is in charge...Frank calls out "count off by 2's". Radar leans to Hawkeye and asks "are you one?" Hawkeye responds in an effeminate voice "yes I am, are you?". Reminds me of this whole "outing" campaign the left wing crusaders have embarked upon. Wonder if they have some secret private chat room on here where they test each other's allegiance by asking questions only Jon Stewart would know just to confirm who is a real liberal American.

But you can admit you are a conservative if you'd like. I mean, not like there's anything wrong with that. For you I mean. {slides away on group W bench}

Since I'm one of posters the liberal dip****s would think is very far right:

Choice -Don't care, not my decision or the government's
Religion/church and state - Complete separation
Gun Control - The government doesn't have the right to limit firearm ownership of law abiding citizens
Gay Marriage - Let them marry, I don't care, government shouldn't be involved
Size of the Military - should be trimmed, due to the massive deficit, but done smartly
US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define) - Stay out of any other matters until we fix stuff at home, get out of the **** UN
Legalizing pot - legalize it, tax it
Professional Wrestling - 12 year old boys need some kind of entertainment besides touching themselves to pictures of Miley Cyrus

 

[pirate]

So once again pirate, fishy, opie, flaggy, etc are showing off their persecution/martyr complex. Do you guys envision yourselves like the Christians being thrown to the lions during Roman times or something like that? Give it up people.

You're not independents and most likely never were. You're merely stuck in some sort of limbo where your ideology is deeply unpopular and generally the cause of old people who lament that the world has passed them by and its no longer 1980. On issue after issue, be it fiscal ones (public supports taxing the rich more over entitlement cuts), foreign policy (public views Iraq War as a collosal mistake, doesn't want to get involved in Syria), or social policy (public supports Roe v Wade decision, gay rights, and background checks for all guns sales) right wingers have become dinosaurs. That's not my opinion. Check the polls and the recent election results.

So, whenever someone does post something in the middle (for example I listed a bunch of spending cuts that sound fine to me) its completely ignored in order to feed your "we're under seige" mentality as fed to you by talk radio and Fox cable pundits. So, you can either learn from this post or go back to THE OUTRAGE OF THE DAY!!! I think I know which one you'll choose. And remember, just because you think they're always out to get you doesn't mean they're not!

What a load of crap. More, " if you don't agree with everything I say, you must be a witch".

What the heck do you think the definition of a registered independent is? If they agreed with 100% of a platform they'd be a donkey or an elephant. But they don't and there are plenty of them. I can't attest for anybody else's "independentness", but I'm very happy I don't agree with most of the social engineering, "better living through more spending" philosophy you espouse.

Remember, if they asked America if would trade 1 episode of American Idol for a reduction in the deficit, the popular vote would pick Idol. So don't prance about claiming election results are indicative of the country being on the right course.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Everyone!! Time out! This has degenerated into a kindergarten playground ******ing contest.

If you want to discuss the issues without the name calling, great!! Otherwise start your own thread and take the nanny-nanny-boo-boo stuff there.

Amen! (is that still allowed?) I come in here and look around and it's turned into some kind of bizarre witch hunt where anyone found to be harboring a *shudder* "conservative idea" will be burned in sacrifice to mother earth! What's wrong with you people? Live and let live!
btw - I'm conservative. Exactly what are you idiots going to do about it?

sorry - My aggravation got high enough to get sucked into name-calling myself but you idiots must admit, it was well deserved.

 

[pirate]

Amen! (is that still allowed?) I come in here and look around and it's turned into some kind of bizarre witch hunt where anyone found to be harboring a *shudder* "conservative idea" will be burned in sacrifice to mother earth! What's wrong with you people? Live and let live!
btw - I'm conservative. Exactly what are you idiots going to do about it?

sorry - My aggravation got high enough to get sucked into name-calling myself but you idiots must admit, it was well deserved.

I don't think it is name calling if it is accurate!

 

[unofan]

What's wrong with you people? Live and let live!
btw - I'm conservative. Exactly what are you idiots going to do about it?

Nothing. As I said before, I just wish fishy would admit as much as well, because his "I'm an independent centrist who just posts 'interesting' talking points (that purely coincidentally happen to always be the latest GOP talking points)" act is getting really, really old.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Fish - I care less than the people who say they don't care but still have to label everyone...any chance you would be willing to share a one word answer...do you share the common liberal position on any of the following? No need to say which, but feel free to say if it is more than one.

Choice
Religion/church and state
Gun Control
Gay Marriage
Size of the Military
US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define)
Legalizing pot
Professional Wrestling

I don't know what the "liberal" position is supposed to be. Here is my brief response on each.



Choice - support school choice, competition among educational providers to improve the "product." have all public schools "charge" tuition which is then covered by "vouchers" except vouchers are transferrable. Not sure how "home schooling" would fit in this model though.

Religion/church and state - first amendment

Gun Control - second amendment. I would teach all children in elementary school how to use guns safely as part of standard curriculum. Imprint safe habits while they are still impressionable. Sort of like drivers' education is handled now, at an earlier age for guns than cars.

Gay Marriage - support civil unions

Size of the Military - goes beyond short answer: basically, a "tiered" approach with fully active duty and several levels of reserves, sort of like major league, AAA, AA, A, so that we can adjust size quickly and easily as needed depending upon the state of the world and our defense needs. I do believe in universal military training / community service as part of citizenship duties for everyone.

US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define) - stop them overseas before they strike us at home. do NOT let Iran develop nuclear weapons.

Legalizing pot - I am against having drugs be illegal but I don't want "legalization" to include aggressive promotion of expanded use. Prohibition did not work for alcohol and it is not working for other drugs either. Declare the "war on drugs" over by surrendering, in effect: we lost. Deal with it, don't deny it, and adjust accordingly.

Prostitution - same as drugs. It would be nice if men were mature enough not to want to seek out prostitutes in the first place, but because they aren't, make it legal because having it be illegal is worse.

Professional Wrestling - huh? it's entertainment, a blue-collar form of ballet. Not sure how anyone has a "position" on it one way or the other.


Thumbnail: economic conservative and social liberal. i.e., "centrist" Similar to libertarian but not as doctrinaire, generally would include more government activity than they do; but I would shift the governmental activity away from the Federal government and more toward municipalities and states. I would replace most cabinet departments with interstate co-ordinating councils. There's plenty of examples of how states cooperate with each other on common issues, like with the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. We don't need the Feds involved in about half the things they do. Nation is too broad and diverse for one centralized solution to work uniformly most of the time.

I basically believe in free will and personal responsibility and generally free markets tempered by what we know of classic market failures like externalities, "free riders" and "problem of the commons." Milton Friedman more so than Hayek. While acknowledging that the idea of enlightened central planning can be seductive, also am mature enough to know that human fallibility plus empirical evidence indicates that it doesn't work. Also realize that humans, being fallible, also are prone to bribery and corruption and so I support limited government to reduce the potential for harm and damage that comes when one group of insiders starts to believe that their own well-being is the single most important prerogative. Believe that society should enforce standards of behavior and ethics through social pressure like shame more than government should try to control behavior through sanctions. The fewer laws we have, written clearly and concisely, would make it much easier for everyone to be law-abiding. I would prefer to provide incentives for people to act well rather than force them to act only in officially prescribed ways through fear of punishment.


Writers who influenced me the most in formation of my "philosophy" are Lao Tzu, Thomas Hobbes, Milton Friedman, Karl Marx, Martin Luther King Jr., and Tibor Scitovsky.


Distrust the left today because it is too much like a secular cult. Everyone is in lockstep agreement on everything and the slightest deviation from official orthodoxy is severely punished. Too much hubris and not enough humility leading to groupthink and willful blindness. Dangerous if not checked.

 

[Rover]

What a load of crap. More, " if you don't agree with everything I say, you must be a witch".

What the heck do you think the definition of a registered independent is? If they agreed with 100% of a platform they'd be a donkey or an elephant. But they don't and there are plenty of them. I can't attest for anybody else's "independentness", but I'm very happy I don't agree with most of the social engineering, "better living through more spending" philosophy you espouse.

Remember, if they asked America if would trade 1 episode of American Idol for a reduction in the deficit, the popular vote would pick Idol. So don't prance about claiming election results are indicative of the country being on the right course.

Pirate, there you go again with the martyr complex. Now most of America is stupid except for you. Most likely you came to this conclusing after watching the voters vote Dem once again.

Registered independents is meaningless. Studies show most independents, like yourself, lean strongly towards one party or another. For example, and don't get all huffy on me, but Romney's confidence in the race on election night was because he had polls showing him winning independents. This was proven true when the exit polls were done tallying the race. The problem was the registered independents weren't the swing voters, they were people (probably Teabaggers) who were already in his camp. He hadn't eaten into Obama's coalition at all.

So, wear that independent label proudly, but when you side with one ideology/party 99% of the time, you aren't really an independent. Romney's campaign learned that lesson the really hard way. One wonders if you're capable of learning it too.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

I don't know what the "liberal" position is supposed to be. Here is my brief response on each.



Choice - support school choice, competition among educational providers to improve the "product." have all public schools "charge" tuition which is then covered by "vouchers" except vouchers are transferrable. Not sure how "home schooling" would fit in this model though.

Religion/church and state - first amendment

Gun Control - second amendment. I would teach all children in elementary school how to use guns safely as part of standard curriculum. Imprint safe habits while they are still impressionable. Sort of like drivers' education is handled now, at an earlier age for guns than cars.

Gay Marriage - support civil unions

Size of the Military - goes beyond short answer: basically, a "tiered" approach with fully active duty and several levels of reserves, sort of like major league, AAA, AA, A, so that we can adjust size quickly and easily as needed depending upon the state of the world and our defense needs. I do believe in universal military training / community service as part of citizenship duties for everyone.

US role in foreign matters (I know, hard to define) - stop them overseas before they strike us at home

Legalizing pot - I am against having drugs be illegal but I don't want "legalization" to include aggressive promotion of expanded use. Prohibition did not work for alcohol and it is not working for other drugs either. Declare the "war on drugs" over by surrendering, in effect: we lost. Deal with it, don't deny it, and adjust accordingly.

Prostitution - same as drugs. It would be nice if men were mature enough not to want to seek out prostitutes in the first place, but because they aren't, make it legal because having it be illegal is worse.

Professional Wrestling - huh? it's entertainment, a blue-collar form of ballet. Not sure how anyone has a "position" on it one way or the other.


Thumbnail: economic conservative and social liberal. i.e., "centrist" Similar to libertarian but not as doctrinaire, generally would include more government activity than they do; but I would shift the governmental activity away from the Federal government and more toward municipalities and states. I would replace most cabinet departments with interstate co-ordinating councils. There's plenty of examples of how states cooperate with each other on common issues, like with the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. We don't need the Feds involved in about half the things they do. Nation is too broad and diverse for one centralized solution to work uniformly most of the time.

I basically believe in free will and personal responsibility and generally free markets tempered by what we know of classic market failures like externalities, "free riders" and "problem of the commons." Milton Friedman more so than Hayek. While acknowledging that the idea of enlightened central planning can be seductive, also am mature enough to know that human fallibility plus empirical evidence indicates that it doesn't work. Also realize that humans, being fallible, also are prone to bribery and corruption and so I support limited government to reduce the potential for harm and damage that comes when one group of insiders starts to believe that their own well-being is the single most important prerogative. Believe that society should enforce standards of behavior and ethics through social pressure like shame more than government should try to control behavior through sanctions. The fewer laws we have, written clearly and concisely, would make it much easier for everyone to be law-abiding. I would prefer to provide incentives for people to act well rather than force them to act only in officially prescribed ways through fear of punishment.

Distrust the left today because it is too much like a secular cult. Everyone is in lockstep agreement on everything and the slightest deviation from official orthodoxy is severely punished. Too much hubris and not enough humility leading to groupthink and willful blindness. Dangerous if not checked.

I'd vote for you in the next election. And it was kind of funny to think someone could take a "position" on wrestling. But one question, how do you reconcile mandatory military and community service with free will and social libertarianism? Ya liberal.
oh, and I think "choice" is the latest lefty code word for "kill the very smallest children before they wake up." Not school choice.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

how do you reconcile mandatory military and community service with free will and social libertarianism?

Everyone benefits from living in our society, everyone contributes something to the maintenance of our society.

Interdependence. Personal responsibility means both oneself and also how one interacts with others too.

 

[pirate]

Pirate, there you go again with the martyr complex. Now most of America is stupid except for you. Most likely you came to this conclusing after watching the voters vote Dem once again.

Registered independents is meaningless. Studies show most independents, like yourself, lean strongly towards one party or another. For example, and don't get all huffy on me, but Romney's confidence in the race on election night was because he had polls showing him winning independents. This was proven true when the exit polls were done tallying the race. The problem was the registered independents weren't the swing voters, they were people (probably Teabaggers) who were already in his camp. He hadn't eaten into Obama's coalition at all.

So, wear that independent label proudly, but when you side with one ideology/party 99% of the time, you aren't really an independent. Romney's campaign learned that lesson the really hard way. One wonders if you're capable of learning it too.

Try to get this through your thick skull. 99% agreeance would mean agreeing with conservatives on much of the sample list I posted. I don't care about anybody's individual litmus test for true liberals or conservatives. My intention was to show a few issues that independents would likely have in common with the left wingers on here...granted, it failed miserably.

The idea was that if fish or any other independent said they agree with policies that are squarely in the liberal column, while we know he agrees with policies in the conservative column, ipso fatso he can't be 99% of either.

Sorry that is so hard to grasp.

You and your band of merry men wouldn't care if he was a gay man running an abortion clinic, since he disagrees with you on taxes..."burn him!!!"

 

[Rover]

Try to get this through your thick skull. 99% agreeance would mean agreeing with conservatives on much of the sample list I posted. I don't care about anybody's individual litmus test for true liberals or conservatives. My intention was to show a few issues that independents would likely have in common with the left wingers on here...granted, it failed miserably.

The idea was that if fish or any other independent said they agree with policies that are squarely in the liberal column, while we know he agrees with policies in the conservative column, ipso fatso he can't be 99% of either.

Sorry that is so hard to grasp.

You and your band of merry men wouldn't care if he was a gay man running an abortion clinic, since he disagrees with you on taxes..."burn him!!!"

Again with the persecution/martyr complex. Following your logic, since I agree with the anonymous GOP proposals of tort reform, federal pension changes, amongst others I can now call myself and independent? Great, since I'm about as independent as you and The Fish.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Now most of America is stupid except for you.

I'm not pirate, but most of America is stupid except for me.

(Doesn't mean I think I have better policy prescriptions than the next guy, I'm just saying it because it's true.)

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...thering-no-detachable-mags-mandatory-license/

If this bull**** passes, I'm hoping for armed insurrection in California. Shoot to kill. Overthrow the government. Do what they have to do, because this has gone too far.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Everyone benefits from living in our society, everyone contributes something to the maintenance of our society.

Interdependence. Personal responsibility means both oneself and also how one interacts with others too.

And that's fine, but it's the furthest thing from "libertarianism" so I'm just saying that word doesn't seem to apply to your social views. In essence libertarianism is the opposite of socialism.

*raises hand* first to call FreshFish a small 's' socialist!