The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

[XYZ]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

According to the dfw, 9 in CA alone the most recent six months reported. Approximately the number in a mass gunman rampage.

Now a question for you...how many innocent casualties are acceptable?

Fish and Wildlife or CA Fish and Game? Link, please.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

According to the dfw, 9 in CA alone the most recent six months reported. Approximately the number in a mass gunman rampage.

Now a question for you...how many innocent casualties are acceptable?

depends if they are ambassadors or real people

Who cares how the guns were obtained? What difference does it make?

I think the point is that even if the gun grabbers passed every single last piece of gun control legislation to their hearts content, it would do absolutely nothing to actually curb gun violence. The people that are shooting other people in the street (or at school) aren't about to feel threatened by new felony charges. It's a classic case of going after a scapegoat because the real problems are too scary to face.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I'm curious about something. Many a con will tell us the solution to gun violence is to have more people packing, which will then reduce the instances of crime out of fear of swift retribution if you pull a gun on a gun owner who's carrying.

BUT, how does that square with Opie's play by play update of Chicago violence??? Presumably most of the inner city bangers shooting each other are armed to the teeth. So are their buddies even if they aren't. Shouldn't then by conservative theory the streets of Chicago be the safest place in America by virtue of all the guns, both legal and illegally obtained? Since its not, doesn't this obliterate conservative rhetoric on guns?

 

[Rover]

You know, you pretty much prove my point....the policies of 20 years ago are better than the policies of 30 years ago, blah, blah blah...we don't have the same global economy, the same average age, the same industrial base, the same debt, the same revenues, the same military situation, the same immigration mix as either of this periods etc. but you know we should repeat one of them now?

You are trying to prove VHS was better than beta max while the world is going blu ray.

If the republicans are idiots, what does it mean to have a better policy than they? Sucking less than the other guy doesn't mean your policies are correct. Like I said, we plunge off the left side of the bridge instead of the right. Big ****ing deal.

Pirate I already expained to you in detail in my last message where in the here and now the deficit reduction would come from. If you recall, 500bn of it comes from tax hikes and cuts (approx 50/50 split) and the rest needs to come from the natural economic growth that will occur regardless of politicians as we emerge from the worst recession in 70+ years. What part of that are you not getting?

Flaggy, credit to you for embracing a plan (9-9-9). Its a regressive as all hell plan but I'm guessing that's not a concern of yours which is fine. Only problem is the plan as described by Herm Cain (unless you have a different version) actually increases the deficit...

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Presumably most of the inner city bangers shooting each other are armed to the teeth. So are their buddies even if they aren't. Shouldn't then by conservative theory the streets of Chicago be the safest place in America by virtue of all the guns, both legal and illegally obtained? Since its not, doesn't this obliterate conservative rhetoric on guns?

One key point you're missing from the whole debate is to arm the people who are NOT felons and "gang bangers" (drug dealers). Not the other way around. The other key point is that those aforementioned felons are guaranteed to be armed to the teeth NO MATTER WHAT laws you want to pass against it, so carrying a gun yourself will just help even up the odds if you wander into a war while visiting Chicago or the ultra-violent I-394 corridor through Plymouth MN. If it becomes illegal for citizens to carry, the felons and gang bangers won't even know about it, and would laugh if you told them to hand it over. (On which point specifically they're not in the wrong, mind.)

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

One key point you're missing from the whole debate is to arm the people who are NOT felons and "gang bangers" (drug dealers). Not the other way around. The other key point is that those aforementioned felons are guaranteed to be armed to the teeth NO MATTER WHAT laws you want to pass against it, so carrying a gun yourself will just help even up the odds if you wander into a war while visiting Chicago or the ultra-violent I-394 corridor through Plymouth MN. If it becomes illegal for citizens to carry, the felons and gang bangers won't even know about it, and would laugh if you told them to hand it over. (On which point specifically they're not in the wrong, mind.)

Ultra-Violent 394 corridor in Plymouth?

Those gang bangers have a completely different, and ****ed up mindset. They're at war, they have it in their ****ed up minds that they are willing to die. Its the same as with soldiers at war, more of a kill or be killed point of view, and completely irrelevant for normal society.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Flaggy, credit to you for embracing a plan (9-9-9). Its a regressive as all hell plan but I'm guessing that's not a concern of yours which is fine. Only problem is the plan as described by Herm Cain (unless you have a different version) actually increases the deficit...

Obviously the specific 9-9-9 numbers, given the government's current habits of spending, could very well not be enough, pending analysis of revenue generated. The plan is based upon the game Sim City, and yes I do play it, so I understand that sometimes taxes need to be raised or lowered to cover government spending. However, I would like for you to please explain how you believe that 9-9-9 is a regressive tax.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

While we're also on the subject of Illinois...

I thought it was ludicrous when Client #9 proposed this in my state, so much so that I would show ID via a passport in other states because of the tainted nature of my driver's license, but it looks like the governor of Illinois is now giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens. http://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Ill-...nts-permission-to-drive/1715-529864-1591.aspx

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Ultra-Violent 394 corridor in Plymouth?

Yeah, the ultra-violent 394 corridor runs through Minnetonka, St. Louis Park, and Minneapolis.

I don't think I'd expect geezer to know that though.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Yeah, the ultra-violent 394 corridor runs through Minnetonka, St. Louis Park, and Minneapolis.

I don't think I'd expect geezer to know that though.

I always fear for my life when I'm on 394 in Minnetonka.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Yeah, the ultra-violent 394 corridor runs through Minnetonka, St. Louis Park, and Minneapolis.

I don't think I'd expect geezer to know that though.

That's the one I meant. Where there's the alleged regular hail of bullets during rush hour that must be somehow gotten through.

 

[Rover]

One key point you're missing from the whole debate is to arm the people who are NOT felons and "gang bangers" (drug dealers). Not the other way around. The other key point is that those aforementioned felons are guaranteed to be armed to the teeth NO MATTER WHAT laws you want to pass against it, so carrying a gun yourself will just help even up the odds if you wander into a war while visiting Chicago or the ultra-violent I-394 corridor through Plymouth MN. If it becomes illegal for citizens to carry, the felons and gang bangers won't even know about it, and would laugh if you told them to hand it over. (On which point specifically they're not in the wrong, mind.)

That would be fine if most violence in Chicago is the result of innocent people being shot by gang members. I'm guessing a good portion, perhaps even a strong majority, of the violence is gang on gang related. So I'll ask again, I thought guns were a deterrent. Presumably all these guys or the people they're hanging with are armed. Why isn't that stopping the killing? If more guns stop crime this doesn't add up. NYC dropped their murder rate by over 2/3rds I believe in 30 years. Was that because more people are toting firearms in the city?

Moving on, what your missing is illegal weapons possession makes it a lot easier to bust these punks, or tack on a few years sentence to a prison term. I'd also image getting caught with guns give the cops leverage to use to extract other information. Drop a wild west legalization on everybody and all that goes away.

 

[Rover]

Obviously the specific 9-9-9 numbers, given the government's current habits of spending, could very well not be enough, pending analysis of revenue generated. The plan is based upon the game Sim City, and yes I do play it, so I understand that sometimes taxes need to be raised or lowered to cover government spending. However, I would like for you to please explain how you believe that 9-9-9 is a regressive tax.

Sure. Top level tax rate is now up to 39% again. 9-9-9 drops that to....9%. In the meantime, lower level tax rate drops very little. So, at first blush, its a tax cut for the rich.

Now payroll taxes are eliminated, which would save those under 110K a year 6% but that's not the same as the 30% the wealthy are saving. You're also eliminating the personal and child deductions while is affecting the middle and lower classes a lot more (7K to someone making 50K is more % of income than 7K to a millionaire).

Finally a 9% sales tax on everything on top of the state sales taxes already in place in most states really puts the screws on people. Say you live in Florida which has a nice juicy 10% or more sales tax in some places depending on add ons to the state tax rate for roads, etc. Slap on 9% on top of that and every gallon of milk you buy is coming at a 20% premium. Again, who do you think takes it in the shorts more over that?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

That would be fine if most violence in Chicago is the result of innocent people being shot by gang members. I'm guessing a good portion, perhaps even a strong majority, of the violence is gang on gang related. So I'll ask again, I thought guns were a deterrent. Presumably all these guys or the people they're hanging with are armed. Why isn't that stopping the killing? If more guns stop crime this doesn't add up. NYC dropped their murder rate by over 2/3rds I believe in 30 years. Was that because more people are toting firearms in the city?

Moving on, what your missing is illegal weapons possession makes it a lot easier to bust these punks, or tack on a few years sentence to a prison term. I'd also image getting caught with guns give the cops leverage to use to extract other information. Drop a wild west legalization on everybody and all that goes away.

Consider it this way: Let's say that we see a ban of all firearms. I'm not just talking assault rifles, but "Demolition Man" future style where the only place you can even see a real gun is in a museum. Do you think that's going to stop these gangs from finding other ways to obtain guns, or even having the "family" rivalries we see today? Did it stop Edgar Friendly in the aforementioned film? Cocteau, the mayor who created all of these bans, couldn't stop EF because not only was he in a place that the city wasn't tracking (we're talking bio-chips, cameras, the whole nine yards), but they had no way to stop him (the cops had "stun batons" because guns no longer "existed").

 

[Rover]

Consider it this way: Let's say that we see a ban of all firearms. I'm not just talking assault rifles, but "Demolition Man" future style where the only place you can even see a real gun is in a museum. Do you think that's going to stop these gangs from finding other ways to obtain guns, or even having the "family" rivalries we see today? Did it stop Edgar Friendly in the aforementioned film? Cocteau, the mayor who created all of these bans, couldn't stop EF because not only was he in a place that the city wasn't tracking (we're talking bio-chips, cameras, the whole nine yards), but they had no way to stop him (the cops had "stun batons" because guns no longer "existed").

Lets stay in the realm of reality and not a movie.

1) Law is passed where every handgun transaction goes thru a check. Also, all existing firearms need to be registered to those who can legally posses them (non-criminals and those of reasonable sanity).

2) Illegal guns are still out there, but over time confiscation reduces them more and more (or gun buyback programs I suppose).

3) In no way are police affected. They keep their weapons.

 

[mookie1995]

Moving on, what your missing is illegal weapons possession makes it a lot easier to bust these punks, or tack on a few years sentence to a prison term. I'd also image getting caught with guns give the cops leverage to use to extract other information. Drop a wild west legalization on everybody and all that goes away.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! You so funny

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Sure. Top level tax rate is now up to 39% again. 9-9-9 drops that to....9%. In the meantime, lower level tax rate drops very little. So, at first blush, its a tax cut for the rich.

Now payroll taxes are eliminated, which would save those under 110K a year 6% but that's not the same as the 30% the wealthy are saving. You're also eliminating the personal and child deductions while is affecting the middle and lower classes a lot more (7K to someone making 50K is more % of income than 7K to a millionaire).

Finally a 9% sales tax on everything on top of the state sales taxes already in place in most states really puts the screws on people. Say you live in Florida which has a nice juicy 10% or more sales tax in some places depending on add ons to the state tax rate for roads, etc. Slap on 9% on top of that and every gallon of milk you buy is coming at a 20% premium. Again, who do you think takes it in the shorts more over that?

So it's regressive based upon comparative relativity between two systems? That does not constitute a regressive tax system. You said that 9-9-9, in and of itself, is, and I quote, "a regressive as all hell plan". Would you like to clarify your original statement, or would you like to stand by it? If the latter is the case, then please explain how you believe that 9-9-9 is, in and of itself, a regressive tax.

Regarding your comments regarding sales tax, you're not really changing much in terms of pricing schema, just to whom the money goes. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that a gallon of milk is $2.00 when you include all taxes (BTW, in NYS, that's zero, but that's beside the point), regardless of plan. Some of the money that goes to the producers goes happens to go to a different government. You and I know that neither this hypothetical situation, nor yours where the bottom line price will increase by 18 cents while all other factors remain the same, will happen; there will be some variable change between the two. However, it seems to me that you are saying that sales tax is regressive. Would you please explain how this is case, or if my assumption is incorrect, please explain the type of system sales tax is, and your reasoning behind it?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Lets stay in the realm of reality and not a movie.

1) Law is passed where every handgun transaction goes thru a check. Also, all existing firearms need to be registered to those who can legally posses them (non-criminals and those of reasonable sanity).

2) Illegal guns are still out there, but over time confiscation reduces them more and more (or gun buyback programs I suppose).

3) In no way are police affected. They keep their weapons.

And how do you plan on executing this? Are you going to waste more tax dollars on gun monsters?

 

[joecct]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Lets stay in the realm of reality and not a movie.

1) Law is passed where every handgun transaction goes thru a check. Also, all existing firearms need to be registered to those who can legally posses them (non-criminals and those of reasonable sanity).

2) Illegal guns are still out there, but over time confiscation reduces them more and more (or gun buyback programs I suppose).

3) In no way are police affected. They keep their weapons.

Potential stumbling point on #1 -- http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...ound-checks/COmpdk3YbrLmj0i9vkTnIJ/story.html

 

[walrus]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

1) Law is passed where every handgun transaction goes thru a check. Also, all existing firearms need to be registered to those who can legally posses them (non-criminals and those of reasonable sanity).
.

They might pass the handgun transaction part, but all existing firearms need to be registered, thats a nightmare and won't be complied with even if its passed(which I doubt would ever happen)