The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

[pirate]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I'm pretty sure I earned this by paying taxes and premiums. I still pay taxes. How is money from granddaddy's investments "earned" but my disability insurance is "received"? What exactly did the person do to "earn" their money? Crawl out of the uterus? Win the sperm lottery?

So, you plan to donate anything passed on from your parents to charity? I don't want to get personal, but assuming your parents are still with us (I hope they are and can commiserate if they are not) have you told them that what they have spent a lifetime earning you plan to disregard since it is just proceeds from the sperm lottery?

While I wouldn't grant a trust-funder the title of 'earner' I would recognize somebody in their family earned that money and if the family or person decided they didn't need to work, well, that is a choice that doesn't negatively impact anyone else. I know a few people who are sufficiently wealthy they don't need to work...some do anyway, some volunteer, some run foundations, some run breakeven small businesses doing something they love.

I wouldn't say they earned the outlays from the trust the same way the guy collecting garbage earns his pay...but I wouldn't insult their family by implying nobody earned the money or they should apologize for having been successful in a previous generation.

I don't think my kids will be able to do nothing based on the legacy I leave them but I hope it helps them to the greatest degree I can. Of course my biggest gift to them will be the education they receive and the requirement that they volunteer time, earn their spending money and value a dollar. So I'd like to think even if I won Powerball and left them a fortune they'd be the ones using it to help people and start small businesses instead of the ones found on TMZ.

Then people like you could spend all your time criticizing them, detracting from everything they do, ignoring their charitable contributions and the work it took to develop the small pittance I can pass them...but we all have to do what we do best.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

You can't focus on the fundamentals, can you? Only the merchandise? That really does explain your motive more succinctly than anything else written on this thread series.

Fundamentals aren't even on the same planet.

Take Social Security for example. Social Security from what I've read from numerous sources (to lazy to look now), may be the most efficient run "business" on the planet. I think the numbers run at about 2%. Yet, it's a horrible business model for the private sector and will eventually bankrupt us. Not before Medicare/Medicaid which is worse.

The motivations of owning and running a business are entirely different from the motivations of public service and governing. Private business isn't fair just like life isn't fair. Everything about government should be about fairness and equality, or it should at least strive for it.

Any politician that campaigns on "I want to run the Government more like a business" immediately disqualifies themselves from receiving my vote. It's a fallacy that should have died a long time ago.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Fundamentals aren't even on the same planet.

Take Social Security for example. Social Security from what I've read from numerous sources (to lazy to look now), may be the most efficient run "business" on the planet. I think the numbers run at about 2%. Yet, it's a horrible business model for the private sector and will eventually bankrupt us. Not before Medicare/Medicaid which is worse.

The motivations of owning and running a business are entirely different from the motivations of public service and governing. Private business isn't fair just like life isn't fair. Everything about government should be about fairness and equality, or it should at least strive for it.

Any politician that campaigns on "I want to run the Government more like a business" immediately disqualifies themselves from receiving my vote. It's a fallacy that should have died a long time ago.

I'm only arguing about the fundamental differences, or differences in fundamentals, between a government and business. You're not going to receive any argument from me about whether or not a certain group's model for execution of those fundamentals sucks. However, if we are going to make any progress towards fiscal responsibility, we need to understand how it is that we are siphoning money, develop a plan of execution to remedy the issue, and stay one step ahead by foreshadowing the impacts of the steps of our plan. It's no different between a government in debt and a failing business in debt.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Are you seriously trying to pull the party line argument on me? You should know by now that, although I may have voted for specific people, I do not hold water for any party whatsoever. If they say or do something stupid, I'll call them out on it.

Before Rover goes on another spit splattering outrage fest, I wanted to just mention something I thought of yesterday. Suppose we take your orders (Rover et al) and every conservative is required to register with the Republican party and vote only for Republican candidates to fulfill your fantasy of the perfect two party system. Guess what? twice as many Americans (per Gallup, 40% to 20%) call themselves "conservative" as opposed to "liberal". So if your fantasy world were actually correct and nobody could be independent of party politics, the Republican party would be winning every national election that is ever held! Do you see that happening? Completely destroys your life's work, doesn't it? Have a great weekend, boys and girls. And don't join a party!

 

[pirate]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Before Rover goes on another spit splattering outrage fest, I wanted to just mention something I thought of yesterday. Suppose we take your orders (Rover et al) and every conservative is required to register with the Republican party and vote only for Republican candidates to fulfill your fantasy of the perfect two party system. Guess what? twice as many Americans (per Gallup, 40% to 20%) call themselves "conservative" as opposed to "liberal". So if your fantasy world were actually correct and nobody could be independent of party politics, the Republican party would be winning every national election that is ever held! Do you see that happening? Completely destroys your life's work, doesn't it? Have a great weekend, boys and girls. And don't join a party!

Great T-shirt idea: Go to parties, don't join them!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I'm only arguing about the fundamental differences, or differences in fundamentals, between a government and business. You're not going to receive any argument from me about whether or not a certain group's model for execution of those fundamentals sucks. However, if we are going to make any progress towards fiscal responsibility, we need to understand how it is that we are siphoning money, develop a plan of execution to remedy the issue, and stay one step ahead by foreshadowing the impacts of the steps of our plan. It's no different between a government in debt and a failing business in debt.

I don't disagree.

We can start by figuring out why we started buying stuff without taxing for it (borrowing from SS). That basically allows those folks in Washington D.C. to play shell games with the cash and confuse the voters. But the Big Bear in the room is Health Care. The private sector can't fix it, the public sector can't fix it. We're screwed until we can figure out what we're going to pay for and what we're not going to pay for. Which runs counter to the oath (Hippocratic) that every doctor takes.

But even if we do that you're swimming upstream. The Boomers aren't done "getting their stuff" and when they're done we'll be done.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I would like to ask you, then... What, in your belief, are the fundamental differences between a government and a business?

If the government were a business, it would have declared bankruptcy by now.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

Any politician that campaigns on "I want to run the Government more like a business" immediately disqualifies themselves from receiving my vote. It's a fallacy that should have died a long time ago.

can't be done. to have a successful business you need:
1) a product people want
but 2) a product people want to pay for

and people don't want to pay for your stuff. they don't even want to pay for their stuff. they want you to pay for their stuff.

losing business model.

 

[unofan]

If the government were a business, it would have declared bankruptcy by now.

By that logic, I should declare bankruptcy since my debt exceeds my annual income. Who cares about assets.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I don't disagree.

We can start by figuring out why we started buying stuff without taxing for it (borrowing from SS). That basically allows those folks in Washington D.C. to play shell games with the cash and confuse the voters. But the Big Bear in the room is Health Care. The private sector can't fix it, the public sector can't fix it. We're screwed until we can figure out what we're going to pay for and what we're not going to pay for. Which runs counter to the oath (Hippocratic) that every doctor takes.

But even if we do that you're swimming upstream. The Boomers aren't done "getting their stuff" and when they're done we'll be done.

With health care, I think it goes much deeper than straight materials cost. We need to look at drug patents (easy way to see that is generix vs. name-brand, especially when a drug first comes out), FDA compliance, Medicare compliance, liability insurance to guard against malpractice, and I'm sure there are plenty of other things involved. If we aren't able to fix the problem by what we're trying to do, then perhaps we need to approach it from a different angle. It's just like trying to get rid of a wart. Obviously everyone has their priorities, and I'm sure by the sheer mention of the FDA I'll hear some crowing about that. However, I'm sure we can sort that out.

I can tell you what we started buying stuff without taxing for it: some greedy dolt said we needed it now. Obviously the balanced budget amendment isn't going to help matters all that much because of the concerns of many people, but I think we can at least take a step forward by stating it this way: "The monetary value of expenses of the United States shall not exceed the greater of the expenses of the United States in the previous year or the actual monetary value of revenue collected by the United States Treasury in the previous year."

 

[unofan]

I'm only arguing about the fundamental differences, or differences in fundamentals, between a government and business

And then ignore them when people point them out.

But I'm sure there's profit to be made in upholding the third amendment. We can start charging people not to quarter soldiers in their homes.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

can't be done. to have a successful business you need:
1) a product people want
but 2) a product people want to pay for

and people don't want to pay for your stuff. they don't even want to pay for their stuff. they want you to pay for their stuff.

losing business model.

People don't want to pay for gasoline (at least the price they now pay for it), but they still do.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

And then ignore them when people point them out.

But I'm sure there's profit to be made in upholding the third amendment.

Wrong kind of quartering.

Actually, I am not ignoring you, I am merely pointing out the difference between a fundamental of execution and the pushing of a specific product or service.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

So, you plan to donate anything passed on from your parents to charity? I don't want to get personal, but assuming your parents are still with us (I hope they are and can commiserate if they are not) have you told them that what they have spent a lifetime earning you plan to disregard since it is just proceeds from the sperm lottery?

While I wouldn't grant a trust-funder the title of 'earner' I would recognize somebody in their family earned that money and if the family or person decided they didn't need to work, well, that is a choice that doesn't negatively impact anyone else. I know a few people who are sufficiently wealthy they don't need to work...some do anyway, some volunteer, some run foundations, some run breakeven small businesses doing something they love.

I wouldn't say they earned the outlays from the trust the same way the guy collecting garbage earns his pay...but I wouldn't insult their family by implying nobody earned the money or they should apologize for having been successful in a previous generation.

I don't think my kids will be able to do nothing based on the legacy I leave them but I hope it helps them to the greatest degree I can. Of course my biggest gift to them will be the education they receive and the requirement that they volunteer time, earn their spending money and value a dollar. So I'd like to think even if I won Powerball and left them a fortune they'd be the ones using it to help people and start small businesses instead of the ones found on TMZ.

Then people like you could spend all your time criticizing them, detracting from everything they do, ignoring their charitable contributions and the work it took to develop the small pittance I can pass them...but we all have to do what we do best.

More than likely there won't be anything passed on to me other than the house in which I live. My mother has few earthly possessions and will be leaving her jewelry to my sister and her car to my nephew because he likes it (he asked for it when he was 6). If I've already moved to Arizona or Nevada by then (since I can no longer walk on ice and snow I have grown to hate it) I will probably give the house to my sister. I have no want or need to "own" anything.

Speaking of my nephew, I am taking him to his first Maine hockey game tonight so I must be off. Argument over. You and mookie can claim the victory. I don't care enough to keep arguing.

 

[pirate]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

More than likely there won't be anything passed on to me other than the house in which I live. My mother has few earthly possessions and will be leaving her jewelry to my sister and her car to my nephew because he likes it (he asked for it when he was 6). If I've already moved to Arizona or Nevada by then (since I can no longer walk on ice and snow I have grown to hate it) I will probably give the house to my sister. I have no want or need to "own" anything.

Speaking of my nephew, I am taking him to his first Maine hockey game tonight so I must be off. Argument over. You and mookie can claim the victory. I don't care enough to keep arguing.

Hopefully you catch this one before you go...I hope you and he have a good time at the game...it is cool that you are taking him. I haven't been to Alfond in over 10 years but I won't forget the energy of that place...of course they were usually playing BU so there was no shortage of motivation for the UM faithful.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

By that logic, I should declare bankruptcy since my debt exceeds my annual income. Who cares about assets.

No, my comment was based upon size of debt and lack of ability to pay it.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

No, my comment was based upon size of debt and lack of ability to pay it.

Some people just don't know when to stop. It's just like the compulsive gambler you see sitting on the boardwalk in Atlantic City asking for change. They don't want food; they don't want hits; they want to pull the slot machine lever again.

 

[pirate]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

I would hope that anybody referring to running government like a business intends to suggest that in business there is attention to a bottom line and wasting gobs of money will eventually cause your business to end.

I have often made the case...but not because I think government can make money or can run wtih the same hierarchy as a corporation.

I would say this...there is a realization one has if they own their own business...every dollar you spend either is one less you make or one less you can spend on something else. So, don't spend what you cant afford and prioritize your spending appropriately.

I also apply business type scenarios to government in things like why can Chase and Citi and Amex process hundreds of billions of dollars of transactions and payments all over the world with a degree of accuracy and fraud prevention that limits losses to single digits but government agencies lose tens of billions a year in mis-applied payments, fraud and other blatant waste. I also would point out that while people don't like it, private companies collect what is owed to them...the IRS leaves billions on the table.

So, I don't want the agencies to operate like a business, but I'd like the mindset to be more similar...in a company, every receivable you collect means you can pay salaries etc. In the government they just tax people more and have no real incentive to stop the fraud or collect the money. They'll tout the occasional win but for the most part they don't respect the money because it isn't theirs, they don't make more money either way and they won't get fired for incompetence.

A company, at least any I've ever heard of, doesn't let somebody stockpile years of vacation days and sick days and let them cash them out when they retire. Companies don't let people work hundreds of hours of overtime in their last year to inflate their pension so they earn 150% of their highest previous pay in pension. Companies don't have rules that if the next EVP makes $250k, every EVP in the company automatically gets a raise to $250k. Companies don't open the CFPB while they already have an agency called the Bureau of Consumer Protection doing the exact same job. Companies fire people who suck, they downsize if revenues fall.

No company would need 16 thousand school districts and administrators to educate the youth of America. No company would divide the country into 16 thousand districts regardless of the business. No company would increase teachers and administrators by 3 million over the last 20 years while students and schools increased slightly.

No company would agree to fund neary 100% of pensions.

Private companies have a world of issues, they do stupid things too....but they have to at least look like they are trying to make/save money. the government doesn't care one lick about it, but they do a good job deflecting the blame onto "the rich", Wall Street, CEO's etc. All of those entities don't cost the common man anywhere near what government indifference costs him each year.

If they want to protect consumers, focus on the IRS, are they as accurate as the disclosures for Viagra? Do they have to pay fines to somebody if they screw up? Nope.

 

[unofan]

No, my comment was based upon size of debt and lack of ability to pay it.

Do not confuse unwillingness with inability. We certainly could pay it off if there was a gun to our head.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 1 - Diving for Dollars

The two things a business has that our governments currently lack are (a) accountability and (b) measures of effectiveness.

While you would use different standards of measurement for those two things, we really do need something along those lines in government.

In other words, I pretty much agree with Pirate here.



What I find particularly frustrating when people talk about the government debt is an inability to assess government assets. Business Fundamentals 101: learn how to read a balance sheet, and learn how to read an income statement.

Balance sheet: what you own and what you owe.

Income statement: what comes in and what goes out.

The extent and depth of financial illiteracy in this country is truly astonishing.